130 réponses à ce sujet

[RenAdaar]

B-but I get a dragon... ;-;

[fchopin]

A slave is a slave, it does not matter if you are possessed by a good spirit or an evil spirit.
Nothing to discuss really as it is obvious.

[TevinterSupremacist]

It doesn't prove the chantry right...the chantry claims that all mages ought to be locked up and monitored and that blood magic and/or spirit communication  should be forbidden because some mages misuse them. This isn't something that's proven right by a single mage doing something potentially risky.

[Addai]

For Morrigan to get the Well's Power and its geas causes fewer problems for the world as a whole if Mythal turns out not to have its best interests at heart than a geas'd Inquisitor would. (Especially if the Inquisitor is also a mage.) Though I suppose Morrigan herself might not have the world's best interests at heart either; how relevant that is depends on what exactly the geas does and how much free will she has left. As for the bit where mages are more capable of dealing with arcane phenomena than non-mages, I don't see why that's relevant here.

Because the Well is an arcane phenomenon? If the well is more dangerous for a mage Inquisitor (which I don't think it is, hence my initial post), then it's also relevant that a mage Inquisitor brings advantages that a non-mage doesn't.

For the record, I let Morrigan drink from the Well myself.

[Ieldra]

A slave is a slave, it does not matter if you are possessed by a good spirit or an evil spirit.
Nothing to discuss really as it is obvious.

While this statement reduces the complexity of the matter perhaps a little too much, yes, that's what it comes down to.

[TurretSyndrome]

What about Warrior and Rogue characters drinking from the Well, is that okay? How is a Mage drinking from the Well different from a non-mage drinking from it and why? Will the Chantry feel safe if it's a Warrior with a Templar specialization drink from it?

 

I don't really get why only the Mage character has to be singled out because they seek the knowledge and power from the Well. If you mean to ask about how mages would be able to resist demons and their promises if they can't resist the temptation to acquire the power of the Well. I think it's simple. Because they know the difference?

 

But let's just say they only "think" they know the difference and it's not really all that different. Let's just say that the Well is just a demon's bait. That means all Inquisitors who drink from the Well, Mage or no, are now the pawns of demons. So again, why single out Mages? Non-mages are not immune to desire. Aveline turned on Hawke the moment the Desire demon promised her Wesley back. Fenris, for all his talk of mages being overcome by their desire for power, quickly turned on us the moment he was offered the very same power by the Pride demon. 

 

Point is, it's not all that different. The scale of the damage done may be different, but the principle is the same.

 

As for proving the Chantry right. The Chantry is really in no position to speak of mages and the corruption of power at this point. We've seen what their zealots are capable of with their abuse of power, and how they have always strived to acquire as much of it as they can while removing anything that might challenge them no matter the costs. Magic is a dangerous thing, sure, but mages and their desires are no different to that of other men. An ambitious mage is no different than an ambitious Chantry. One has no right to judge or criticize the other. 

 

Throughout this entire franchise if there's one thing I've noted, it is that when a Mage aims to gain power, everybody is up in arms about it. If it is anyone else, then it's "just how the world works". It's why I don't take such remarks seriously.

[Ieldra]

@TurretSyndrome:

The basic problem applies to anyone, not just a mage. As I said in the post at the top of this page, I singled out mages because they should be familiar with that kind of situation. 

 

@all:

I have changed the thread title to reflect better what I aimed to discuss. That appeared to be somewhat unclear given the reponses.

[leaguer of one]

Darling (sorry, could not resist )  once again, we are talking about life-time believer. One day that believer discovered a Temple of the Goddess he\she believed in his whole life. This Temple is everything he\she could dream of. An ancient guard of that Temple told that ONE fact about elven history was not exactly as believer used to see it - shemlens did not destroy the great city once was. So what? Gods are constantly fighting among themselves, is it a reason to call them "unwise"? No. Ok, ancient elves also fought among themselves - how does it make them less wise? Same with Dales (which happen in "modern" elves days, still included inadequate response from shemlens and do not change much).

 

Again and again - for a believer it's not the reason to stop believe in gods, but only to wish to find more about exciting history of the people. And the well is a source of that history (among other interesting things).

 

I do not try to stop you from RP an elf who would shake his believe after one word from a stranger - it's your game, why would I? But there are plenty of reasons for other types of RP.   

More like someone who doesn't want to look at facts. My elf was a true believe. The whole shock from the ancient elves bring the question of if we want to be like that. And no they were not wise, they would not destroy themselves in an endless war if they were. The way I saw it is that the elves are just going to repeat the same mistake over and over again. That's what shatter my elfs beleif.

And it not just a stranger, this is the being that lived at the time of ancient elves,alive to guard it's remaining culture. This guy is what they were.

[hong]

" (changed title to prevent misunderstandings)... "

Wuss.

[robertthebard]

Not really. Mythal actually existed at some point and died, joining with Flemeth some time later. So, it's not the same as what Chantry propaganda preaches. Learning who Fen'Harel is also refutes that notion.

Existed as what, however? The whole thing that I took away from Mythal et al and the end scene is that we really don't know. Can we be sure that Mythal wasn't actually another Flemeth? By that I mean that Mythal was an actual Elf, that was possessed by a powerful spirit, but then remained Mythal through all the various incarnations, just as Flemeth has. While we have nothing that actually supports that, we also have nothing that outright refutes it either. Of note here is that Flemeth didn't have that ability until after she was possessed. So it would seem that it is tied to Mythal, thereby reinforcing the theory of Mythal being a spirit.

Also, how does knowing who Fen'Harel is refute anything? Based on the above, it would actually support it more than refute it. Especially if Fen'Harel has existed as Solas for ages upon ages. It's not like Flemeth hasn't been around for centuries as an avatar of Mythal.

[Ieldra]

I'd say it doesn't matter if the original Mythal was a spirit or an elf. If she's taking control of you, through whichever means, you have a problem, and if your motivations aren't aligned with hers, you have a big problem. Then later, it is revealed that she's out for a vengeance "that will shake the very heavens", and then you notice that you might have a really big problem.

 

The thing is, I could see this coming - well not exactly this, but something like it - as I stood at the well.

[Ishka]

See to me, I saw this more like how it happens with Mythal/Flemith. You choose to drink. There for they are only taking over the willing, because you willingly choose to drink ( just as Morrigan was willingly choosing to drink ). I don't think of it as a demon option, I think of it far more like that option of the old gods where you have to be willing and then yes, they can have control over you. Just as Mythal now has control over Solus who was willing.

My mage drank from the well. I am certainly scared for her and what this means and almost wish I had let Morrigan drink instead.

[javeart]

I still think taht drinking from the well, it's a huge risk, but only that, beause you don't really know if the compulsion it's real and to wthat extent it's going to affect you. If you make a deal with a demon, on the other hand, you're not taking a risk, you're acceping amuch more concrete exchange, and you 're either giving in to temptation or accepting the sacrifice for whatever reason you think it's worthy. But in any case there's no risk, because every mage (every adult mage at leats) knows (or at least she thinks she knows) how it goes with demons. Demons are not an unknown, the well of sorrows is

 

 

 

See to me, I saw this more like how it happens with Mythal/Flemith. You choose to drink. There for they are only taking over the willing, because you willingly choose to drink ( just as Morrigan was willingly choosing to drink ). I don't think of it as a demon option, I think of it far more like that option of the old gods where you have to be willing and then yes, they can have control over you. Just as Mythal now has control over Solus who was willing.

My mage drank from the well. I am certainly scared for her and what this means and almost wish I had let Morrigan drink instead.

 

I see it more similar to the DR choice too

[wright1978]

I can appreciate there are certain similarities between the harrowing and well of sorrows choice.

However the price of being bound to Mythal's will is less first hand and more second hand in nature.

Does the protagonist know that Mythal is still loose in the world to exact payment?

Personally also for the Elven character i'm creating being bound to the will of one of her Gods is mighty different from making a pact with a standard demon/spirit.

[Ishka]

This is why I am very scared about what it will mean. I came to really like this first character I have played which I only just finished tonight and whilst I can play other's this is the one that will have the most meaning I am sure. All my 'first' play throughs of bioware games that's how it is for me and she chose to drink because she didn't trust Morrigan or her motives and because, well Elf Mage. I am certain this could be her undoing, the end of her relationship with Cullen and goodness knows what else. Somehow I just have this eerie feeling that the price may be too high and yet there seemed to be little choice at the time.

[Ieldra]

I still think taht drinking from the well, it's a huge risk, but only that, beause you don't really know if the compulsion it's real and to wthat extent it's going to affect you. If you make a deal with a demon, on the other hand, you're not taking a risk, you're acceping amuch more concrete exchange, and you 're either giving in to temptation or accepting the sacrifice for whatever reason you think it's worthy. But in any case there's no risk, because every mage (every adult mage at leats) knows (or at least she thinks she knows) how it goes with demons. Demons are not an unknown, the well of sorrows is

You actually do know that the compulsion is real if you have the arcane knowledge perk (at least that's what I think you need), as much as you can know it in advance anyway, which is about as much as you can know in advance about how a demon's presence would affect you.

 

The risk you take is like this: you hope that the will that controls you will be aligned with your own to an extent that you can live with it. I think that's a pretty big gamble to take. And it doesn't change that you've become a slave. You see, the status of being unfree in this specific way is not defined by being controlled at all times. It is defined by being subject to the whim of another at all times. The geas affects you at all times, and you are changed by being aware of it, even while it isn't forcing you to do anything. It's like a mage in the Circle, hoping at any time that the next thing they do doesn't draw the attention of the templars in the wrong way, only the Circles are more predictable, and it's possible to escape.

[TurretSyndrome]

 

The thing is, I could see this coming - well not exactly this, but something like it - as I stood at the well.

 

Right, and you don't have to be a Mage to see it coming. If you ARE a Mage and you decide to drink from the Well, it means that you accept the risk whatever it is, despite the chance that you have a better assessment of it. 

 

Morrigan is a good example here. She believes that there is no need to take heed of such "superstition" of the elves. She believes that there is no sign of a being such as Mythal so there's no consequence to be afrad of. But you and your character may decide to heed it or ignore it like her. And this is something you do regardless of your class which is why I say that the character being a Mage doesn't matter. It's all about judging things case by case rather than "I'm a Mage who went through Harrowing so I know what's going to happen".

[javeart]

You actually do know that the compulsion is real if you have the arcane knowledge perk (at least that's what I think you need), as much as you can know it in advance anyway, which is about as much as you can know in advance about how a demon's presence would affect you.

 

The risk you take is like this: you hope that the will that controls you will be aligned with your own to an extent that you can live with it. I think that's a pretty big gamble to take. And it doesn't change that you've become a slave. You see, the status of being unfree in this specific way is not defined by being controlled at all times. It is defined by being subject to the whim of another at all times. The geas affects you at all times, and you are changed by being aware of it, even while it isn't forcing you to do anything. It's like a mage in the Circle, hoping at any time that the next thing they do doesn't draw the attention of the templars in the wrong way, only the Circles are more predictable, and it's possible to escape.

 

I think we know much more about demons that what you can infer about the functioning of the well, even with the arcane knowledge perk. In fact, we know so much about it that the writers never bothered to create a situation where a demon offered us something in exchange for our body, because it'd be kind of suicidial and we, as players, are not actually driven but the strong emotions that can lead someone in game to accept such an offer. Instead we're always left to choose allowing somebody else to be possessed, which makes for a more conventional choice about being more selfish or noble.

 

We didn't know if Mythal was real or alive, we don't how much influence they're going to be able t exert over us and we don't know if we're going to be able to overcome it eventually

 

I still agree that is a huge risk, though. But I can see myself drinking (I've done so in many pt), while I could never make a deal with a demon, and I think it's because of this.

[DarkAmaranth1966]

My inquisitor, Dalish mage drank and yes, I see the connection to Anders to Mythal = Justice/Vengeance spirit in Anders = Justice/Vengeance. Both out to set right what went wrong with the world and both using powerful, "special" (Grey Warden and has Anchor) mages to do so.

[Ieldra]

My inquisitor, Dalish mage drank and yes, I see the connection to Anders to Mythal = Justice/Vengeance spirit in Anders = Justice/Vengeance. Both out to set right what went wrong with the world and both using powerful, "special" (Grey Warden and has Anchor) mages to do so.

What makes you think that "My vengeance will shake the very heavens"-Mythal won't turn your Inquisitor into Anders - only with a much bigger explosion? At least in hindsight, your Inquisitor should have some misgivings.

[Addai]

Flemeth releases you if you ask her to, though that could only be a temporary release rather than reversal of the vow.

I understand the comparison to a Harrowing, though that was forced on you and in this case you have at least one alternative.

[DarkAmaranth1966]

Oh, I'm sure there will be ramifications, I mean she flat tells you that she doesn't want anything of you - FOR NOW. Knowing Flemeth, she means just that, for now, not forever. Sooner or later she will make her demands and, a Quizzy that drank will have to obey. Still to gain a good bit of the knowledge of ancient elves, for a Dalish mage and, the price is serving an Elven god - it's worth it.

[IanPolaris]

This is one more plot point to make the Templars look better.  [I.E.  See, if the temptation were great enough, you'd sell yourself....so how can any mages be trusted when dealing with Demons.]

 

It's a false and unfair comparison since the game FORCES someone (you are Morrigan) to accept the temptation or the game can't continue (or Cory wins because he seizes the well while you're arguing the point).

 

If I am forced to make a choice with a gun held to my head, it's not a real choice.  That's not true morally but IIRC legally as well (at least in the US).

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Because the Well is an arcane phenomenon? If the well is more dangerous for a mage Inquisitor (which I don't think it is, hence my initial post), then it's also relevant that a mage Inquisitor brings advantages that a non-mage doesn't.

For the record, I let Morrigan drink from the Well myself.

The mage will get more use out of it I suppose. It can also get more use out of them. I'm not saying it's more dangerous for the mage. I'm saying it's more dangerous for everyone around the mage.

 

As for that last bit, that was probably wise of you.

[stonerbishop]

But Mythal isn't a demon, right? Right?!

Sera says yes