208 réponses à ce sujet

[CronoDragoon]

I agree with the Disney song bit. So cringe-worthy. Why must my characters that don't even believe in Andraste have to go through that? Or me??

 

Talk to Mother Giselle after and you have your answer. She did that because she believes, yes, but she also tells you she did it to manipulate the faith of the followers of the Inquisition into believing in you. That's why you can ask her  if "she made you Inquisitor."

 

There's actually quite a bit of cynical dialogue that goes with some of the Andrastians in this game. The theme of the Inquisitor is repeated at length to be about how the Inquisitor's faith is ultimately irrelevant: the nature of who she is will make her a religious leader regardless, which gives her power that she must be wise enough to utilize effectively.

[VanguardCharge]

Whether or not she's their pet doesn't matter, since this is only a matter of shoulds. Advisors can be replaced and the game would continue to function.

Though, really I don't feel anything for just the idea of a companion dying. It's like a single sentence summary of a painting, so it sort of feels like a cheap grab to make us feel bad and stuff. Killing off companions is the low hanging fruit for me. I didn't feel anything for the Hawke choice, regardless of who the Warden is. Sure I'll pick one why not because we can't run fast enough. The fade was cool, but this felt tacked on. Duncan's death was dramatic, but I was expecting him to die or leave at some point, and he wasn't interesting enough for me to miss.

 

Table missions are specifically written for her. It would be hellata harder introducing a new advisor into the trio rather than introducing a new companion into the 9 companions nonagon. 

 

And no, Cassandra would not just be dying for the sake of dying. She would be dying because

- it makes no sense for your PC to be the inquisitor if she's alive,

- she becomes romance fodder with a single quest after Haven

 

I think A LOT of people felt something for the "death' (no one dies in DA:I. No one) of Hawke, considering that he was the protagonist of DA2. 

[Linkenski]

I mentioned Roderick as the "chantry dude who wanted me imprisoned". Goes to show how much of an imprint he made in my 2 playthroughs.

Roderick was a plot device for the "secret pathway under chantry" reveal. I don't really see "sacrifice' he made since he was already mortally wounded. He is not really giving anything up. Hell, revealing a safe way logically increases his chances of survival because being injured while under attack <<< being injured in a tunnel.

Then I think you're not looking hard enough. The extra attention given to him as he drew his last breath during the musical number clearly implies something, and I remember being a little moved by that one shot. I think the other guy is right that Roderick's death meant quite a lot.

[Morty Smith]

*watching cast break out in song*

 

*beeing like*

 

 

*moving on*

[CronoDragoon]

*watching cast break out in song*

 

*beeing like*

 

 

*moving on*

 

Oh man and this moment, too.

 

In Your Heart Shall Burn is perfect. Wouldn't change a thing.

[VanguardCharge]

In Your Heart Shall Burn has awkward moments, but is by far the best main quest in the game, and killing Cassandra would be a cheap appeal to emotion (not to mention fridging) and lose the potential of her arc, which is the most thematically relevant and well executed one. So. I don't agree with this post at all, lmao.

 

I have to admit, the first part of her quest (finding the Seeker Bible) was cool. But it has no effect on her. She doesn't care after you do her "kill teh s33k3rs!!" quest.  After Haven, she becomes one of the 9 companions for me (not to mention the whole "why isnt she inqy?" plot hole). 

[CronoDragoon]

(not to mention the whole "why isnt she inqy?" plot hole). 

 

What plot hole? She isn't the Inquisitor because you are the Herald. Being the Herald makes you the face of the Inquisition and the leader in the eyes of the people. Hence you being named Inquisitor.

 

Once you start being able to close rifts Cassandra's most important role becomes your bodyguard. Anything she does well someone else in the Inquisition does better.

[sch1986]

Why must one resort to killing off a big character in order to create drama and emotional investment?
 
I mean, it works, ya, but I think it would have made Cassandra a weaker character, turning her into Duncan or even that one female warrior in Awakening... or even the Hawke sibling who died in the beginning... killing someone off that early is kind of lame, unless they were meant to just be the Mentor and a lead in for the PC to become the Hero of the story, but then they just turn into backstory and are not a developed character or whatever.
 
Innocents died, wounded died, you had to retreat, you had to be the bait to get the rest to safety and so stayed behind without guarantee of surviving, and you were shown that Cory is way more powerful than you. It showed that Cory was in a position to win, to get what he wanted, even if he was delayed a little longer to develop an alternative to the Anchor. If the Inquisition didn't get the mages/Templars and Orlais with them and stopped the Warden plot, Cory would have won. Kind of reminded me of the beginning of ME3, except the PC stays behind and survives but must flee with everyone, rather than an army of survivors who keep fighting throughout the game.
 
I thought it was fine.

I agree. I think Had Cassandra died that early in the game you wouldn't have cared so much. Because you were able to spend a whole game with her you can look back at it and say- "I would have been so much more moved by this if Cassandra had died."

I didn't think all that much of Cassandra until after her personal mission. Which was pretty late in the game.

I also didn't care that much about Duncan dying. I was more sad for Alistair who it clearly had an effect on. Hell I was more upset King Cailan was dead. So... No.

Killing someone early in the game doesn't automatically make for emotional investment in the story.

[VanguardCharge]

Then I think you're not looking hard enough. The extra attention given to him as he drew his last breath during the musical number clearly implies something, and I remember being a little moved by that one shot. I think the other guy is right that Roderick's death meant quite a lot.

 

 I just didn't care about the death of a fictional NPC who hated me until 5 minutes ago and was wounded, so he revealed the tunnels in self preservation. Am I bad person? I mean, I did care about the Fade choice (I thought the Grey Warden mission was the best in the game, by far) because I was attached to Alistair/Loghain/Hawk and knew from the start that Stroud was a hero for his cause (not to mention that the Wardens really need a leader back in "reality"). 

[Linkenski]

In Your Heart Shall Burn is fine IMO. The problem is What Pride Has Wrought where Corypheus simply appears and then runs away, and gives you all the time in the world to go do side **** and launch the final boss battle with him.

The game has the same plot structure as ME1, intro mission(s) then 2 vital locations that prepare you for the big strike, then something happens at that big strike that leads to the culmination and final mission. The difference is that in both Mass Effect 1 and 3 we were railroaded into the final mission after the final strike because it was the point of no return.

Because nothing really happens in What Pride Has Wrought it doesn't build up the point of no return very well.

Corypheus shouldve done something really awful that forced you to go straight into the final mission right afterwards, and something that made you feel he is about to win, but everything is so contrived and devoid of tension.

[KaiserShep]

Table missions are specifically written for her. It would be hellata harder introducing a new advisor into the trio rather than introducing a new companion into the 9 companions nonagon.

And no, Cassandra would not just be dying for the sake of dying. She would be dying because
- it makes no sense for your PC to be the inquisitor if she's alive,
- she becomes romance fodder with a single quest after Haven

I think A LOT of people felt something for the "death' (no one dies in DA:I. No one) of Hawke, considering that he was the protagonist of DA2.

I disagree. The "Herald" became the unofficial leader by default after leading the group to everything that led up to the breach's closure. Even if she decided that she wanted to be Inquisitor, the people were already following the Herald, due in part to Mother Giselle's influence. So in the end, it's to make us feel bad and raise the stakes and all that good stuff.

I take issue with the romance fodder because she has plenty of content for female inquisitors as well, so it's not like her character has no presence if you're not pitching woo in her direction.

Plus, this leaves us with boring ass Blackwall and glass sort-of-cannon Iron Bull, neither of which have as much presence or as good a set of dialogue. Maker preserve us.

[VanguardCharge]

What plot hole? She isn't the Inquisitor because you are the Herald. Being the Herald makes you the face of the Inquisition and the leader in the eyes of the people. Hence you being named Inquisitor.

 

Once you start being able to close rifts Cassandra's most important role becomes your bodyguard. Anything she does well someone else in the Inquisition does better.

 

You are known throughout Thedas as the dude who murdered the Divine. Cassandra is the Hero of Orlais, was the right hand of the Divine and a high ranking Seeker. She has all the qualifications for the job. It would make so much easier for the Inquisition to get allies with her, a recognized hero and a close person to the Divine, as the Inquisition's figure head. Let's not even get into the Inquisitor being a Quinary or a mage...

[MikeJW]

No, no. Killing Cassandra off wouldn't be enough. I mean she's just a singular npc. See, you should be about to be killed but then Cassandra kills herself trying to save you. BUT Varric sees her trying to save you so he tries to save her but gets killed. Seeing this Solas tries to grab both their bodies but gets killed by Corys dragon. Seeing the dragon then awakens Iron Bulls bloodlust and he charges said dragon only to get set on fire, causing him to run head on into Dorian who just showed up. This also sets Dorian on fire who tries to fade step away only to bump into Cole and send him reeling of the mountain. Blackwall charges Cory but accidently runs in front of Sera just as she lets lose an arow and gets killed. Sera, shocked. doesnt notice Viv come up behind her who then stabs and kills Sera because Viv, and this is where the real drama starts, is actually Corys mother.

[Hurbster]

The thing with Legacy you is didn't outsmart Hawke danced like a puppet for him and didn't realize it and he wasn't even coherent for the most part when he did it. It seems Corypheus's subconscious and his confused mind is better at plotting then when he's awake and coherent.

I seem to recall that Hawke pretty much danced to other people's strings for the entirety of DA2.

[CronoDragoon]

You are known throughout Thedas as the dude who murdered the Divine. Cassandra is the Hero of Orlais, was the right hand of the Divine and a high ranking Seeker. She has all the qualifications for the job. It would make so much easier for the Inquisition to get allies with her, a recognized hero and a close person to the Divine, as the Inquisition's figure head. Let's not even get into the Inquisitor being a Quinary or a mage...

 

No, you aren't. As soon as you stopped the Breach growing you changed a lot of minds, and by the time you close the Breach nobody believes you are responsible, and everyone is interested in you. Being a ranking Seeker means little when the Order declared itself separate from the Chantry, and you see when you do her personal quest that the Seeker order is virtually demolished due to the Fiery Promise and Lucius' betrayal.

 

Right Hand of what Divine? The Divine is dead and the Chantry is diminished once the Templars split and it no longer has the power to enforce its views.

 

As George RR Martin wrote, power resides only where men believe it resides. Everyone in Inquisition is lining up to curry favor with you, the Herald. Not Cassandra. Alliances are formed based on your favor. Vivienne essentially allies all Circle Mages with you, after a personal meeting requesting you specifically.

 

This is all demonstrated by an easy counterfactual: without Cassandra, Leliana forms the Inquisition and you become the Inquisitor. Without you, the Inquisition is worthless and Thedas falls to Corypheus.

 

Cassandra is a worthy ally. But the order of importance in the Inquisition goes you > Leliana > Josie/Cullen > Cassandra. 

[Rekkampum]

The same holds true for the In Media Res beginning of the game. We don't know who we are and why we're here unless we read the codex, and we have no clue who are the people who died and if we should care about them. Did we had friends there or were they all strangers, I don't know.

Contrary to the beginning of pretty much every Bioware Game I've played before, I felt completely uninvested in the story.

I had to wait for the Alexius mission to actually feel the stakes.

As for The demise of Haven a little bit of action would have helped, we should have had to actively help the few people we knew, have to make priority choices, see the people die in front of us, sometimes as a direct consequence of our choices, rather than being told about it afterward'

Also, following Haven, the revocation of Threnn should be discussed with the council. There should be an opportunity for us to push for the change or defend her.

 

Actually, there are several people in the town while it's under attack who will die if you don't save them. And given all the hell unleashed, I think it's safe to assume that many more also did as well.

 

I guess it registers with each of us differently. I personally loved it because of all the chaos and the fact that Corypheus obviously had the upperhand, right to the point we had to sacrifice the entire town just to hope to survive. I liked the Chancelor's arc because he went from someone who hated you and considered you a heretic to someone who comes to trust you and is willing to die for the right cause. It was pretty awesome, given how little exposure he had. I of course loved traveling by myself through the snow after we'd lost everything, and then the folks start singing that song. Man... that shyt was right up there with Circle of Life. People use "Disney" as a pejorative but when they're in their stride, even "Disney" moments can be emotionally mature and powerful.

[Aaleel]

I thought it was one the best missions in the game.

 

Only thing I would have changed was not showing the Elder one until he actually came walking through the fire.  Showing him up on the hill before the attack kind of wasted the power of the appearance.

 

But I thought the mission was very well done.  I thought the song was fitting as well.

[VanguardCharge]

No, you aren't. As soon as you stopped the Breach growing you changed a lot of minds, and by the time you close the Breach nobody believes you are responsible, and everyone is interested in you. Being a ranking Seeker means little when the Order declared itself separate from the Chantry, and you see when you do her personal quest that the Seeker order is virtually demolished due to the Fiery Promise and Lucius' betrayal.

 

Right Hand of what Divine? The Divine is dead and the Chantry is diminished once the Templars split and it no longer has the power to enforce its views.

 

As George RR Martin wrote, power resides only where men believe it resides. Everyone in Inquisition is lining up to curry favor with you, the Herald. Not Cassandra. Alliances are formed based on your favor. Vivienne essentially allies all Circle Mages with you, after a personal meeting requesting you specifically.

 

This is all demonstrated by an easy counterfactual: without Cassandra, Leliana forms the Inquisition and you become the Inquisitor. Without you, the Inquisition is worthless and Thedas falls to Corypheus.

 

Cassandra is a worthy ally. But the order of importance in the Inquisition goes you > Leliana > Josie/Cullen > Cassandra. 

 

The Chantry still holds a crap ton of power. You bring up Vivienne, a character with a lot of power who thinks that only a strong Chantry can solve the Mage/Templar conflict. It's plot breaking that she would side her resources with an Inquisitor who does not favor the chantry. Andraste is the most popular god in Orlais/Fereldan, a religious land.

 

An Inquisitor like Cassandra, a former close ally of a notionally loved divine, who also happens to be a national hero and has our PC under strict control, would get way more approval from nobles and factions. 

[Hair Serious Business]

Last time I checked none had to die if you did your job right...except Chancollor Roderick,he dies anyway.

[CronoDragoon]

The Chantry still holds a crap ton of power.

 
Not after Val Royeaux. Remember that Mother getting sitch-blapped in the middle of the street by a Templar who knew she could do nothing about it? The Chantry has virtually no power until it elects a new Divine, which it isn't even close to doing until towards the end of the game.
 

You bring up Vivienne, a character with a lot of power who thinks that only a strong Chantry can solve the Mage/Templar conflict. It's plot breaking that she would side her resources with an Inquisitor who does not favor the chantry. Andraste is the most popular god in Orlais/Fereldan, a religious land.

 
Yes, and you're the Herald of Andraste. You are seen as the literal messenger of Andraste, a belief the Inquisition does everything to promote. Even if the Inquisitor does not believe, it becomes irrelevant, because everyone else does.

Vivienne sides with you because she knows the Inquisition is Thedas' only chance, so she wants to have powerful allies when and if the Inquisition wins. Even if the Inquisition doesn't directly support the Chantry, she knows that the priests will have to get their **** together at some point to nominate candidates, and she positions herself as one.
 

An Inquisitor like Cassandra, a former close ally of a notionally loved divine, who also happens to be a national hero and has our PC under strict control, would get way more approval from nobles and factions.

Cassandra might be a national hero, but the Herald is a hero to all of Southern Thedas after closing the Breach. At that point, Cassandra is old news. What have you done for me lately, nobles will ask? It was smart of BioWare to wait until Skyhold for the ceremony, since by that point the Herald has gained both the fame she needs to be seen as a leader externally while cementing trust and belief from inside the Inquisition with her actions at Haven.

[KaiserShep]

 Vivienne sides with you because she knows the Inquisition is Thedas' only chance, so she wants to have powerful allies when and if the Inquisition wins. Even if the Inquisition doesn't directly support the Chantry, she knows that the priests will have to get their **** together at some point to nominate candidates, and she positions herself as one.

 

Pretty much. Regardless of anything, being able to say that she was there when the Inquisitor stopped whatever holds more power than being that mage who sat idly by in her mansion.

[Fullmetall21]

You are known throughout Thedas as the dude who murdered the Divine. Cassandra is the Hero of Orlais, was the right hand of the Divine and a high ranking Seeker. She has all the qualifications for the job. It would make so much easier for the Inquisition to get allies with her, a recognized hero and a close person to the Divine, as the Inquisition's figure head. Let's not even get into the Inquisitor being a Quinary or a mage...

 

Cassandra does have the qualifications to become Inquisitor but the same can be said about Leliana. As a veteran of the fifth blight, possible mistress to the king of Ferelden, the left hand of the divine, with ties to the Orlesian court and mastery of the Game. If you ask me Leliana's qualifications are better than Cassandra's. Maybe we should kill both so it feels more natural for the Inquisitor to become Inquisitor. Now you might argue that Leliana is essentially a spy and therefore is unfit to become a leader but you have the option of building the Inquisition to a huge spy network so that makes sense as well. What makes the Inquisitor become the Inquisitor is the belief that Andraste saved him/her from the fade and the mark that closes rift. Both Cassandra and Leliana lack both.

 

You say Cassandra is basically irrelevant to the plot and in fact counterproductive to the story as she could become Inquisitor and yet aside from Iron Bull who offers you an alliance with the Qunari and Solas, for obvious reasons none of the other companions feels more relevant to the story than Cassandra. Also Cassandra can become Divine (for some the best choice of the Divine) while say Blackwall can do nothing and is overall a lot more irrelevant for the story than Cassandra. If Cassandra died at that quest she would have died just to have a death in the game.

[Marshal Moriarty]

Making you the leader makes no sense. Having the mark on your hand doesn't mean you have the ability to be the kind of leader the Inquisition needs - its just an extremely fortuitous circumstance for them that you are so unusually amazing at everything. Putting you up there as a figurehead for the public is one thing, but they acutally *are* deferring to you and conferring that leadership role to you in private as well, which is just crazy. As several bright sparks point out, you don't even know how it works - you just wiggle your fingers and hey presto. How does that qualify you to be the Spearhead point of contact in all situations, chief diplomat on all critical matters (you use Josephine - your diplomat - for all the day to day stuff, but your Inqusitior handles all the important stuff without her?!)

 

The reality is that wouldn't work this way *at all*. As soon as they worked out that your mark was the only way to close the rifts, then that would be it for your personal freedom. You may be honored and valued by the Inquisition, but you would also be far too valuable and necessary an asset to ever leave to your own devices, even for just a few minutes. You'd be flanked by bodyguards and attendants everywhere you go - which wouldn't be far, because outside of pre-planned excursions to rift sites for closing them, you'd be confined to a place they can easily protect you. Because without you, they have *no means* of closing the rifts. They're not just going to let you go rolling about the countryside, with just a handful of people in hostile territory! They'd look like right lemons if the world was destroyed by the rifts, simply because they let you gallivant about, because you 'needed some space'.

 

Putting you into the role of leader is (as many have mentioned) just one of the many Disney like aspects of this game. To pull something like that off, the protagonist needs to be charming or charismatic or self effacing, hapless... something. But your character is just some tonally neutral avatar with a mark on their hand, with all the inspirational qualities of a dead badger. Instead of growing into the role, and as the OP suggests being presented with a trauma that *demands* you learn to overcome any doubts etc and knuckle down (which should be shown even if only in montage like in KOTOR), it goes thusly:

 

Advisors: So... we need you to be the Inquisitor.

 

You: Er... you want me?

 

Advisors: Yes.

 

You: Well... alright, then. (Spreads a map over the bonnet). We need to do this, and then I need all your intel on these people, then I'll lead these troops over here.... Come on people - I need options!

 

 

You're just instantly the most capable person ever at everything. And everyone else stops mattering at all, going back to their usual round of 'I've got trouble with my parents/parental substitute/old lovers' etc etc etc.Cassandra's fall from grace is simply the most pronounced, as she goes from Main Character to Yesterday's Hero. With absolutely no warning, she suddenly decides she has no interest at all in being involved in any of the big decisions, and that's that for her in the main story.

 

And what of Corypheus? Well, he's too busy sitting in his base thinking 'Man... why *did* I throw him right next to the last working Trebuchet, instead of just killing him?! And why did I tell him all that stutff about my powers and my evil plans when I was going to kill him anyway? Doh!' 

[Giantdeathrobot]

This quest is probably the best paced and directed mission in a Bioware game, ever. Maybe the Suicide Mission beats it, but that's far from a given.

 

It doesn't need fixing IMO. In fact, apart from Wicked Eyes and Wickied Hearts (which needed less combat and a better introduction to the players of the Game) I wouldn't really change any of the main quests in any meaningful way, which is kind of a first for me in a Bioware game. They were all pretty top notch.

[KaiserShep]

This is why it's a pointless endeavor to overthink certain points of logic in a story and how it fits into a video game. If DA:I tried to more closely emulate some kind of vast organization, the game would mostly be the war table, and occasionally going out with a huge complement of soldiers to close the rifts, and then back to the stronghold.

 

Riveting stuff, that.