208 réponses à ce sujet

[ZxeroSyrom]

I think what the OP was getting at was having another Virmire moment. The quest as it stands is fine imo but I suppose if it had been the same kind of event, who would you have chosen to lose (party members only) in order to make your escape from Haven?

[Fullmetall21]

Making you the leader makes no sense. Having the mark on your hand doesn't mean you have the ability to be the kind of leader the Inquisition needs - its just an extremely fortuitous circumstance for them that you are so unusually amazing at everything. Putting you up there as a figurehead for the public is one thing, but they acutally *are* deferring to you and conferring that leadership role to you in private as well, which is just crazy. As several bright sparks point out, you don't even know how it works - you just wiggle your fingers and hey presto. How does that qualify you to be the Spearhead point of contact in all situations, chief diplomat on all critical matters (you use Josephine - your diplomat - for all the day to day stuff, but your Inqusitior handles all the important stuff without her?!)

 

The reality is that wouldn't work this way *at all*. As soon as they worked out that your mark was the only way to close the rifts, then that would be it for your personal freedom. You may be honored and valued by the Inquisition, but you would also be far too valuable and necessary an asset to ever leave to your own devices, even for just a few minutes. You'd be flanked by bodyguards and attendants everywhere you go - which wouldn't be far, because outside of pre-planned excursions to rift sites for closing them, you'd be confined to a place they can easily protect you. Because without you, they have *no means* of closing the rifts. They're not just going to let you go rolling about the countryside, with just a handful of people in hostile territory! They'd look like right lemons if the world was destroyed by the rifts, simply because they let you gallivant about, because you 'needed some space'.

 

Putting you into the role of leader is (as many have mentioned) just one of the many Disney like aspects of this game. To pull something like that off, the protagonist needs to be charming or charismatic or self effacing, hapless... something. But your character is just some tonally neutral avatar with a mark on their hand, with all the inspirational qualities of a dead badger. Instead of growing into the role, and as the OP suggests being presented with a trauma that *demands* you learn to overcome any doubts etc and knuckle down (which should be shown even if only in montage like in KOTOR), it goes thusly:

 

Advisors: So... we need you to be the Inquisitor.

 

You: Er... you want me?

 

Advisors: Yes.

 

You: Well... alright, then. (Spreads a map over the bonnet). We need to do this, and then I need all your intel on these people, then I'll lead these troops over here.... Come on people - I need options!

 

 

You're just instantly the most capable person ever at everything. And everyone else stops mattering at all, going back to their usual round of 'I've got trouble with my parents/parental substitute/old lovers' etc etc etc.Cassandra's fall from grace is simply the most pronounced, as she goes from Main Character to Yesterday's Hero. With absolutely no warning, she suddenly decides she has no interest at all in being involved in any of the big decisions, and that's that for her in the main story.

 

And what of Corypheus? Well, he's too busy sitting in his base thinking 'Man... why *did* I throw him right next to the last working Trebuchet, instead of just killing him?! And why did I tell him all that stutff about my powers and my evil plans when I was going to kill him anyway? Doh!' 

 

Bringing such extreme realism to a fantasy game and you know things are about to get wrong. And how is this any different than the Warden being automatically the most capable person in the group? Because Duncan died? Alistair was still the senior warden, maybe not a senior warden but sure as hell he knew a lot more than you. You need to be the leader because you control the character and he is the protagonist I think that's how stories work. People are complaining about the Inquisitor being an errant boy already and you say it would be better to have our PC being what a simple agent? 

[CronoDragoon]

The reality is that wouldn't work this way *at all*.

Okay. You've just described a realistic game that no one would buy because it'd be boring and terrible, though, so I'm not sure realism to this degree is very useful. We might as well have just flown the Eagles to Mordor.

[Marshal Moriarty]

Just saying 'Oh well it had to be done that way, because the reality wouldn't make for a good story' just means its a weak premise. Making you the leader because you are so vitally important and unique, doesn't stack up with the complete lack of personal protection you are given. It is not extreme realism to want them to create a credible scenario. All storytelling is a contrivance, but not all stories feel contrived. It depends how it is executed, and this is executed terribly - because it is at its core principle, a flawed premise that simply wouldn't work in the way the story is claiming it would..

 

Please try to understand that I'm not saying the story should have worked as I outlined. At no point did I say that would be desirable outcome, or be any fun at all to play. I'm saying the premise they give us would *have* to work like that. Because it *couldn't* work the way they are presenting it. If the world's only hope rests on one person's survival (dramatics aside, they are *literally* the only person who can close the rifts), then you would have to have thta person in security lockdown around the clock. You'd be insane not to, especially when there is a group of people who know exactly what the mark and are trying to kill him/her.

 

Ergo the premise is flawed and they should have done something else. Because it just doesn't work, when you are playing as that character. If the person who had the mark was an NPC, who you had to protect then maybe it could have worked. But in a game, you need agency, and your own character obviously can't be locked up tight like that, or there would be no game. But then as I say, the whole premise makes no sense. You could not let a character so crucial to the continued existance of the world (as the Mages Quest shows you what will happen if you are not around), roam free. As I say, its a flawed premise - the only way you do it, would be for the person with the mark to be a NPC in Skyhold...

 

On the Inquisitor's authority therefore, they are trying to have their cake and eat it. They are skipping all the buildup and groundwork that would go into moulding you as the Hero, the one who is recognized by the people as their savior through their actions, as in DA:O etc. It takes the whole game, until you have beaten the Archdemon for people to assign that level of authority to you, because you have *earned* it. And hey, the warden actually failed sometimes - he/she is actually defeated at the Tower of Ishal, remember? No cutscene power to the max Trebuchet nonsense - just beaten by some regular Darkspawn.

 

The Inquisitor 'skips the written' and just goes straight to the Heroic leader on their Throne, savior of the people, by the end of Act 1. Because of a completely artificial plot device, which as I said would actually reduce your effective personal freedom to zero. Your personal abilities wouldn't matter *at all*. Because you would be far too valuable to ever risk in that kind of way. You would be marched up to the Rifts, once the area had been pacified, do your thing and then back to Skyhold. Every mission would be the cutscene that begins 'In your Heart Shall Burn' where the breach is closed with no opposition,]

 

And yes, that would be incredibly dull. But that's the setup they have provided. My point is that its a stupid and contrived setup that they have to directly undermine to make it work at all. Its terrible contrived storytelling at its absolute worst.

[KaiserShep]

Realistically, you shouldn't be traveling around with just 3 people out in the wilds where you could easily be killed by dragons, bears, bandits, the sh**-ton of demons, rogue mages, rogue templars, nug swarms, etc.. The same is true of the Warden-Commander.

[KaiserShep]

And yes, that would be incredibly dull. But that's the setup they have provided. My point is that its a stupid and contrived setup that they have to directly undermine to make it work at all. Its terrible contrived storytelling at its absolute worst.

 

This is the same setup as Commander Shepard as well. You're given the authority to forge alliances to fight the reapers, but you're also going out on strike missions on various worlds, potentially leaving the super advanced stealth ship totally leaderless. Star Trek logic, basically.

[CronoDragoon]

You can't have your cake and eat it. They are skipping all the buildup and groundwork that would go into moulding you as the Hero, the one who is recognized by the people as their savior through their actions, as in DA:O etc. It takes the whole game, until you have beaten the Archdemon for people to assign that level of authority to you, because you have *earned* it. And hey, the warden actually failed sometimes - he/she is actually defeated at the Tower of Ishal, remember? No cutscene power to the max Trebuchet nonsense - just beaten by some regular Darkspawn.

Who in their right minds gets a cake and doesn't eat it?

And actually you are implicitly trusted from post-Ostagar and tasked with executive decisions in Origins, simply by virtue of being a Warden, not because of any innate desirable characteristics.
 

The Inquistior 'skips the written' and just goes straight to the Heroic leader on their Throne, savior of the people, by the end of Act 1. Because of a completely artificial plot device, which as I said would actually reduce your effective personal freedom to zero. Your personal abilities wouldn't matter *at all*. Because you would be far too valuable to ever risk in that kind of way. You would be marched up to the Rifts, once the area had been pacified, do your thing and then back to Skyhold. Every mission would the cutscene that begins 'In your Heart Shall Burn' where the breach is closed with no opposition,]
 
And yes, that would be incredibly dull. But that's the setup they have provided. My point is that its a stupid and contrived setup that they have to directly undermine to make it work at all. Its terrible contrived storytelling at its absolute worst.

If you want to make the safety argument then that's fine, but arguing that you are made Inquisitor without consideration to your personal merit isn't supported by the facts of the game. You are the de facto leader from the time the Inquisition forms until you are made Inquisitor. The anchor may have enabled you to interest parties that otherwise may have been ambivalent but it was still through the Inquisitor's decisions and effort that the Templars/Mages were recruited and the Breach closed. Then there's Haven, where the Inquisitor holds of a goddamn Archdemon and ancient magister so the Inquisition's people can safely escape. Then you show up at the camp alive when having previously thought dead.

In short, it's fairly easy to see why both the people of Thedas and the Inquisition's people see you as a leader.

[RepHope]

What made you fear Cory? The deaths of your bar maid and the chantry drone who wanted your head? Or the idiot with a dragon who turned into frosty the snowman?

How about getting lifted up by my arm by an 8 foot Darkspawn Magister who is the equivalent of Satan?

[Fullmetall21]

How about getting lifted up by my arm by an 8 foot Darkspawn Magister who is the equivalent of Satan?

 

This made me laugh so hard here good sir take my like.

[Marshal Moriarty]

And I accounted for that - the people would indeed see you a savior, and the Inquisition would be very shrewd to put you up there as a figurehead. But to actually confer leadership and decision making roles on you is a different matter altogether. Why would they do that? And isn't it fortunate that you are as amazing as they believe you to be at everything, despite no apparent training in strategy, diplomacy, combat (in some cases), ettiquette etc etc etc.

 

And you don't need to bring up Commander Shepard with me. I've argued many times that the situation with Shepard is also heavily contrived, particularly in the way as you say, that Shepard leads every single damn mission! But that's not really an argument for this thread, and would (and does) require threads and forums of its own (which it has!). Shepard at least is a career solider, with a history of sucess in a variety of military scenarios for about a decade or so. He is hardly just a guy off the street, but they do push it at times.

 

As the Warden, they are not in fact conferred any particular respect. The Wardens have a reputation that many respect, and the treaties carry a certain amount of legal binding that races like the Dwarfs (who are very big on such things) respect. Greagoir however frequently seems like he's only seconds away from telling you to sod off. The Warden and his group are frequently ignored and considered to the dregs from the bottom of the barrel, until they actually produce some results. As to leadership of the group, well Sten for one can actually challenge you for that role, if he takes issue with your decisions. He is a very practical and down to earth sort of guy - he knows that just because your title is Warden, doesn't necessarily mean you are the leader they need. 

 

Its a different scale of organization. You are a scrappy little group in Origins, that has legally binding documents and some fortunate connections. The only skills the Warden needs to demonstrate most of the time, is their martial skills. They are not leading an organixation and making decisions on trading, foreign affairs, sitting in judgement on matters of sometimes very sensitive criminal and civil justice, being a religious figurehead etc etc. Like I say, the Inquisition would be smart to use the mythos that is growing around you in public, but to actually hand over executive sanction to you in private when you are completely new to this, is absurd. As is giving you any say over matters of faith and how they are handled when they arise in various operations, when they know (regardless of what they are saying to the people) that you might be a faithless heathen who hates the whole idea of Andrastism.

[KaiserShep]

How about getting lifted up by my arm by an 8 foot Darkspawn Magister who is the equivalent of Satan?

 

Inquisitor: I'm not afraid!

 

Corypheus: Mortals have often said these words against the darkness. Once they were mine, they were always lies.

 

Inquisitor: Legit though. I'm seriously not afraid. I can't hear the dramatic music.

 

Corypheus: Meta-knowledge won't save you.

 

Inquisitor: Yeah, keep believing that, buddy.

[KaiserShep]

As the Warden, they are not in fact conferred any particular respect. The Wardens have a reputation that many respect, and the treaties carry a certain amount of legal binding that races like the Dwarfs (who are very big on such things) respect. Greagoir however frequently seems like he's only seconds away from telling you to sod off. The Warden and his group are frequently ignored and considered to the dregs from the bottom of the barrel, until they actually produce some results. As to leadership of the group, well Sten for one can actually challenge you for that role, if he takes issue with your decisions. He is a very practical and down to earth sort of guy - he knows that just because your title is Warden, doesn't necessarily mean you are the leader they need. 

 

This is why I said the Warden-Commander specifically, rather than just our ragtag-leading Warden.

[In Exile]

I hated "In Your Heart Shall Burn". The Disney song in the end and Cory's stupidity (pulling the Harbinger in ME3's suicide run?) were only parts of the problem. The thing I hated the most was the lack of emotion toward the destruction of Haven.

This was supposed to be the Inquisition's big lose, with Cory winning the battle and us scrambling. Instead, we got a new badass base. At what price? The researcher and the bar maid with whom I had a single conversation and the chantry dude who wanted me imprisoned? Instead of feeling like I lost a battle, I felt rewarded with a new base. Oh, and I found out that my arch-nemesis is stupid.

In my opinion, this could've been solved with a meaninful death at Haven. Perhaps a special someone holds back Cory while you escape because you are the chosen one and must survive? Well, I got a candidate for that. One of my favorite characters in the game.

Cassandra.

Cassandra serves a guide in the first third of the game, giving you vital information of the first Inquisition and the Seekers. She is compassionate toward you even if you don't believe in the Maker. She is very likeable. Hell, she would make for an excellent leader for the Inquisition. To me, it doesn't really make sense why you're the Inquisitor if she's around.

Making her the Duncan of the Inquisition would raise the stakes and actually make the PC feel something toward Cory after " In Your Heart".

Your solution is pointless. Even if I agree with all of your points everything that makes Cassandra likeable happens after Haven. Let's say somehow Bioware invests all this content into an NPC they will automatically kill. Which is absolutely nothing like Duncan because he was an irrelevant NPC.

Then what you will have is a contrived choice like Kai Leng winning in ME3. The enemy wins through cutscene power. That doesn't create emotional depth - it's completely lame.

[Marshal Moriarty]

The position of the Warden Commander in Amaranthine is something of a trial run (and besides, there have been many who take issue with Awakening's premise). It is conferring on you the rights and priviliges of a noble in a way, albeit without the extensive education in statecraft that a noble would get as they were growing up and being groomed for the role. There is indeed only a small chance that your Warden might have the necessary skills (the Human and Dwarf Noble might have received some relevant education on the matter).

 

But the Inquisition is being formed by practical people like Cassandra and Divine Justinia (who was apparently a down to earth and sensible woman). They would you assume be completely against the idea of handing over executive power to people, just because their political status indicates they have some sort of right. People like Cassandra, Cullen etc would want someone who can actually do the job. Cassandra seems to be the only person in the Inquisition who doesn't believe she would be perfect for the role, and the game does a good job in Act 1 of showing that she is *exactly* the kind of person the Inqusition needs. And yet you get the job, despite being someone (judging by your various questions) seems to know nothing about anything.

 

And yet as soon as you get made Inquisitor, its like you're playing as Commander Shepard again, complete with swagger.

[In Exile]

The position of the Warden Commander in Amaranthine is something of a trial run (and besides, there have been many who take issue with Awakening's premise). It is conferring on you the rights and priviliges of a noble in a way, albeit without the extensive education in statecraft that a noble would get as they were growing up and being groomed for the role. There is indeed only a small chance that your Warden might have the necessary skills (the Human and Dwarf Noble might have received some relevant education on the matter).

 

But the Inquisition is being formed by practical people like Cassandra and Divine Justinia (who was apparently a down to earth and sensible woman). They would you assume be completely against the idea of handing over executive power to people, just because their political status indicates they have some sort of right. People like Cassandra, Cullen etc would want someone who can actually do the job. Cassandra seems to be the only person in the Inquisition who doesn't believe she would be perfect for the role, and the game does a good job in Act 1 of showing that she is *exactly* the kind of person the Inqusition needs. And yet you get the job, despite being someone (judging by your various questions) seems to know nothing about anything.

 

And yet as soon as you get made Inquisitor, its like you're playing as Commander Shepard again, complete with swagger.

 

Cassandra is completely unsuited to being a leader. Effectively everything we see her do is a completely flop. She fails miserably in interrogating Varric, who not only completely ends up controlling the scene by the end of it but actually misleads her into think Hawke is missing. You get the job because you're viewed as a divine figure. The whole end scene (the so-called Disney song) is meant to illustrate that you don't matter, but rather what people think about you matters. You're Inquisitor because the Inquisition needs to believe in you. It's that simple. Cassandra could never be who you are, because she didn't win the lottery to get the Anchor. 

[Fullmetall21]

The position of the Warden Commander in Amaranthine is something of a trial run (and besides, there have been many who take issue with Awakening's premise). It is conferring on you the rights and priviliges of a noble in a way, albeit without the extensive education in statecraft that a noble would get as they were growing up and being groomed for the role. There is indeed only a small chance that your Warden might have the necessary skills (the Human and Dwarf Noble might have received some relevant education on the matter).

 

But the Inquisition is being formed by practical people like Cassandra and Divine Justinia (who was apparently a down to earth and sensible woman). They would you assume be completely against the idea of handing over executive power to people, just because their political status indicates they have some sort of right. People like Cassandra, Cullen etc would want someone who can actually do the job. Cassandra seems to be the only person in the Inquisition who doesn't believe she would be perfect for the role, and the game does a good job in Act 1 of showing that she is *exactly* the kind of person the Inqusition needs. And yet you get the job, despite being someone (judging by your various questions) seems to know nothing about anything.

 

And yet as soon as you get made Inquisitor, its like you're playing as Commander Shepard again, complete with swagger.

 

The questions are there for people who start Dragon Age with Inquisition or for people who haven't read the books (Cole's dialogue gave me somewhat of an idea of what happened in Asunder) and while I might not agree with it (come on an elven Inquisitor asking what is the Temple of Mythal?) I can see it is necessary for new players or for the ones that don't read codex entries and lore. 

[KaiserShep]

Cassandra is completely unsuited to being a leader.

 

If I remember correctly, she even says this herself, or at least so far as the Inquisition goes. Her forthrightness is certainly a virtue.

[Nimlowyn]

If I remember correctly, she even says this herself, or at least so far as the Inquisition goes. Her forthrightness is certainly a virtue.

Yeah, she tells Solas something to the effect that she doesn't have enough perspective, she's too brash, something like that. Solas is impressed with her.

[KaiserShep]

The female warden of Awkeneing and Hawk's first sibling died 10-15 minutes into the game. Cassandra would've died 1/3 of the way of the main quest. Besides the romance and remaining seekers quest, how is her character progressing further after Haven?

 

I'm curious, why is there a "besides" here at all? What's the point of discounting any character progression at any point in the game? Is it because it's not enough or something? The Seeker quest seems pretty important, since we learn the truth about what Lucius has become, the cultists, and it's a turning point where it can determine whether or not Cassandra pursues rebuilding the order later. I'm not getting why this is insufficient.

[SomberXIII]

Asking to fix the best mission in the game. Well, let's not think about it. It's impossible. Instead let's think about fixing it in our mind or crying out loud that things didn't happen as you like. Shall we? 

[Balek-Vriege]

Cassandra is completely unsuited to being a leader. Effectively everything we see her do is a completely flop. She fails miserably in interrogating Varric, who not only completely ends up controlling the scene by the end of it but actually misleads her into think Hawke is missing. You get the job because you're viewed as a divine figure. The whole end scene (the so-called Disney song) is meant to illustrate that you don't matter, but rather what people think about you matters. You're Inquisitor because the Inquisition needs to believe in you. It's that simple. Cassandra could never be who you are, because she didn't win the lottery to get the Anchor. 

 

 

I agree except for the part that the Inquisitor doesn't matter due to the whole mark thing and all.  I think it's more accurate that it doesn't matter what your inquisitor thinks (which is what I think you meant anyways) taking into your account your point that its more about what others think.

 

I got goosebumps after my dalish inquisitor, playing the skeptical Herald role, took the option that says something like "I don't feel chosen... It feels like all the weight of my actions are mine alone..."  Then out of nowhere Giselle starts up with Dawn Will Come and my ragtag downtrodden group becomes totally inspired.  Another nice touch was Roderick died at the height of the singing (I hope).  It was sort of the best way he could go by that point.  Even though my Inquisitor didn't believe she was the Herald, it really felt like scene marked a turning moment that gives the character the willpower to move on regardless, because it's so touching that these people believe in him/her so much.  Very much like scenes from movies that turn the doubting con-artist or anti-hero to care for those around him so much that they become a full out protagonist and leave their past behind.  I'm not sure how this came off a "Disney" song.  Nothing corny about deeply religious people just being utterly decimated in battle, turning to a well known religious hymn about hope in support of someone they think is a fantasy mixture of Jesus, Moses and/or Joan of Arc.

 

I also agree with you about Cassandra because her problem is that she's way too head strong, single-minded and thus a bit naive to build up the clout to truly lead.  This is obvious in the first part of the game with the Roderick, the Chantry and taking too many people at their word before hand (Varric, Seeker leader etc.).  At the same time I think her character development in DA:I evolved her to the point that she could make a great Divine, but I'm beginning to believe that after seeing the softened Leliana Divine epilogue she may be a better leader/outcome in the end.

[Rekkampum]

How about getting lifted up by my arm by an 8 foot Darkspawn Magister who is the equivalent of Satan?
 

 

His voice actor is bomb too.

[KaiserShep]

I think what the OP was getting at was having another Virmire moment. The quest as it stands is fine imo but I suppose if it had been the same kind of event, who would you have chosen to lose (party members only) in order to make your escape from Haven?

 

The only conceivable way I can see this working is if you assign companions to hold off the enemy at the trebuchets, and both are overrun, forcing you to decide which to save. The immediate problem is that a character like Solas is instantly exempt for plot reasons, so he'll have to say something like "I'll look after the people of Haven in the Chantry or something!" and he's temporarily removed from your party. Or worse, he can be chosen to go to a trebuchet we don't save, and he mysteriously shows up later anyway. Suspicious!

 

But in the end, all of these things suck nug balls.

 

The whole point of the final sequence of this quest was that you and your small party was going to be a distraction while everyone else escaped. There wasn't going to be any holding the line, because that's stupid. You can't stop the army from trampling you, and you can't toss your paltry few soldiers at them to buy you time, because the dragon totally screwed that plan up, so all you can do is bury Haven and hope you survive. The Inquisitor being the lone defender in the end is an important part of the character and part of the reason why s/he rises to the official role, and having Cassandra go all Jenkins at the huge swath of Red Templars/Venatori/whatever would be an incredibly cheap and lame way to rub her out.

[Rekkampum]

I'm curious, why is there a "besides" here at all? What's the point of discounting any character progression at any point in the game? Is it because it's not enough or something? The Seeker quest seems pretty important, since we learn the truth about what Lucius has become, the cultists, and it's a turning point where it can determine whether or not Cassandra pursues rebuilding the order later. I'm not getting why this is insufficient.

 

This. Not to mention we learn about what she endured to become a Seeker, as well as the big conspiracy involving a certain rite. She goes through a ton of stuff in the game. Can't see how people write off these moments. Not to mention Viv recommends Cassandra as Divine when asked of her opinion. She's a born leader.

[Mocksie]

I would have loved "In Your Heart Shall Burn" if it wasn't for Cory pulling a James Bond villain move at the end of the quest.

 

I feel like everything should have happened faster there. As it is, he declares that he's going to kill my character and then proceeds to stand around and idly talk for another minute, and doesn't even pay attention to my Inquisitor getting closer to the treabuchet (and then my Inquisitor making a cringey one liner before activating it). I've always hated the plot device of having villains talking for 20 minutes about how they are going to kill the protagonist, but never actually attempt to do it.

 

I would have even been okay with my Inquisitor dodging attacks from Cory or his dragon while trying to get to the treabuchet. As it is, it feels like he and his dragon just kinda stand there when it all happens. I get it, he's supposed to be arrogant, but really?