208 réponses à ce sujet

[KaiserShep]

Yeah, one thing these sorts of villains love to do.

 

[Balek-Vriege]

I would have loved "In Your Heart Shall Burn" if it wasn't for Cory pulling a James Bond villain move at the end of the quest.

 

I feel like everything should have happened faster there. As it is, he declares that he's going to kill my character and then proceeds to stand around and idly talk for another minute, and doesn't even pay attention to my Inquisitor getting closer to the treabuchet (and then my Inquisitor making a cringey one liner before activating it). I've always hated the plot device of having villains talking for 20 minutes about how they are going to kill the protagonist, but never actually attempt to do it.

 

I would have even been okay with my Inquisitor dodging attacks from Cory or his dragon while trying to get to the treabuchet. As it is, it feels like he and his dragon just kinda stand there when it all happens. I get it, he's supposed to be arrogant, but really?

 

They do actually just stand there in fact.  Corypheus thinks he's a demi-god already and practically is with his ability to resurrect himself in any blighted creature.  As a demi-god aspiring to godhood, who's previous job description before becoming a Darkspawn Magister was a Magister Priest to Dumat, you would think he was used to preaching as he was a seriously devout man that did the impossible in the name of his god.
 

Also there was nothing really the Inquisitor could do to him by that point.  The Herald's remaining army and followers were all fleeing.  He tried to kill or make the Herald useless as he talked by taking the mark but it was permanent.  Then he decided to talk a little more before finally killing him/her, but was interrupted by an avalanche that could have marked problems, delays and Corypheus probably thought the Herald just committed suicide in trying to stop him.

 

What's the point of being an arrogant self-absorbed god if you can't convert followers or try to talk "sense" into your greatest enemies?

[Robert Trevelyan]

"Fixing" is the wrong term here. It is not broken. It is functioning exactly as Bioware wanted it to.

 

Just because somebody does not feel that a part of a game matches their own personal preferences does not mean it is Broken.

[In Exile]

I agree except for the part that the Inquisitor doesn't matter due to the whole mark thing and all.  I think it's more accurate that it doesn't matter what your inquisitor thinks (which is what I think you meant anyways) taking into your account your point that its more about what others think.

 

I got goosebumps after my dalish inquisitor, playing the skeptical Herald role, took the option that says something like "I don't feel chosen... It feels like all the weight of my actions are mine alone..."  Then out of nowhere Giselle starts up with Dawn Will Come and my ragtag downtrodden group becomes totally inspired.  Another nice touch was Roderick died at the height of the singing (I hope).  It was sort of the best way he could go by that point.  Even though my Inquisitor didn't believe she was the Herald, it really felt like scene marked a turning moment that gives the character the willpower to move on regardless, because it's so touching that these people believe in him/her so much.  Very much like scenes from movies that turn the doubting con-artist or anti-hero to care for those around him so much that they become a full out protagonist and leave their past behind.  I'm not sure how this came off a "Disney" song.  Nothing corny about deeply religious people just being utterly decimated in battle, turning to a well known religious hymn about hope in support of someone they think is a fantasy mixture of Jesus, Moses and/or Joan of Arc.

 

I also agree with you about Cassandra because her problem is that she's way too head strong, single-minded and thus a bit naive to build up the clout to truly lead.  This is obvious in the first part of the game with the Roderick, the Chantry and taking too many people at their word before hand (Varric, Seeker leader etc.).  At the same time I think her character development in DA:I evolved her to the point that she could make a great Divine, but I'm beginning to believe that after seeing the softened Leliana Divine epilogue she may be a better leader/outcome in the end.

 

I don't want to discount what the Inquisitor does in-game, because those feats do matter in the sense that they got the Inquisition to where it was right before Haven and they were the product of skill, regardless of the desire to actually go through with them. It's just the feats are the precondition to becoming Inquisitor; whether or not you took an active role or were thrust into the circumstance, the fact that you have the Anchor is what elevates you in the eyes of the Inquisition. Your feats are just confirmation for them, when the situation is at its darkest, that you are divinely ordained.

 

It's actually a really cool deconstruction of the usual Chosen Hero ™ trope, and how people confuse the fact that you happened to succeed with the perception that you were preordained to succeed. 

 

I do think that Cassandra grows a lot during Inquisition in terms of the nuance of her view. She is better suited to being Divine than Inquisitor, because the very things that hold her back from being a great Inquisitor make her well-suited to be divine. She's opinionated, headstrong, and absolutely dedicated to her ideals. As a reformer, those are exactly the qualities that one needs, aside from her complete and total lack of political savvy. 

[ThreeF]

 

The whole point of the final sequence of this quest was that you and your small party was going to be a distraction while everyone else escaped. There wasn't going to be any holding the line, because that's stupid. You can't stop the army from trampling you, and you can't toss your paltry few soldiers at them to buy you time, because the dragon totally screwed that plan up, so all you can do is bury Haven and hope you survive. The Inquisitor being the lone defender in the end is an important part of the character and part of the reason why s/he rises to the official role, and having Cassandra go all Jenkins at the huge swath of Red Templars/Venatori/whatever would be an incredibly cheap and lame way to rub her out.

 

That's basically what your general tells you in that quest. "At this point we can only have them work for it" or something like that.

[KaiserShep]

That's basically what your general tells you in that quest. "At this point we can only have them work for it" or something like that.

 

Right. Basically everyone is retreating into the only remotely defensible structure in the entire place. The exchange in the Chantry is my favorite though.

[ThreeF]

Right. Basically everyone is retreating into the only remotely defensible structure in the entire place. The exchange in the Chantry is my favorite though.

 

Yes! The whole you are not going to go and kick ass, you are going to go and distract and possibly die. I always pester Cory with questions.

 

On a side note: I always found it peculiar that if you tell outright that you are willing to sacrifice yourself, Solas disapproves, I wonder why.

[ToJKa1]

The Disney song in the end....

 

Yeah, the less spontaneous musical numbers or group singing i'm exposed to, the happier i'll live.

 

Other than that, i like the quest. It's the last time Cornyphails actually does anything.

[s-jay2676]

Cassandra was the Hero of Orlais, Right Hand of the Divine and the leader before you were introduced. She is well known throughout Thedas and within the actual Inquisition. Your character comes out of left field. Its hard to believe Cassandra giving you the reins, especially if your PC does not believe in the maker and expresses multiple times that the Inquisition is rubbish.  

I think it doesn't make any sense for Cassandra to become the Inquision's leader. She's the Right Hand of the Divine and the Inquisition is supposed to function outside of the Chantry's influence which wouldn't be possible with her as leader. Besides, if I remember correctly there is some dialogue with Cassandra where she explains that Hawke was seen as the potential leader by the Divine herself.

[MiyuEmi]

I didn't find anything really wrong with this quest.  It suited the initial theme of the thing.  None of them were really aware up until that point who the Elder One was and the destruction of Haven shows them that Haven as a base makes them way too vulnerable.  It took seconds for Corypheus and his red Templars to destroy what was meant to be the base of the Inquisition.  Besides, Skyhold has properties to it that we're never made entirely aware of, and it's likely that those unknown attributes will feature heavily in any DLC, considering Skyhold is ancient elven and we now know we have an elven god trying to 'fix' something.  Corypheus doesn't even attempt enter Skyhold (unless my memory really is that bad!) so that's saying something.

 

While it may not have been as dramatic as some wished it to be, for me it served it's purpose, though I would have preferred better timing/direction to allow you to save everyone.  Haven was a terrible location as a fortress because it was not totally defensible, which it's destruction in a heartbeat proves.   

[ThreeF]

While it may not have been as dramatic as some wished it to be, for me it served it's purpose, though I would have preferred better timing/direction to allow you to save everyone.  Haven was a terrible location as a fortress because it was not totally defensible, which it's destruction in a heartbeat proves.   

 

You can save everyone, but interestingly enough, imo, this instance was handled with a great amount of realism, with you not knowing were exactly they are and why they are yelling for help in a very chaotic situation.

[MiyuEmi]

ThreeF: True.  I have saved everyone in my second playthrough, though on my first I didn't realise that I could.  Should really have let Seggrit die though.  He's a pain in the backside and all he does at Skyhold is complain.

[yankblan]

Great, another troll thread by this clown

[leaguer of one]

Yes! The whole you are not going to go and kick ass, you are going to go and distract and possibly die. I always pester Cory with questions.

 

On a side note: I always found it peculiar that if you tell outright that you are willing to sacrifice yourself, Solas disapproves, I wonder why.

You have the anchor. The thing that can only open the fade at that time. He needs it.

[Fiskrens]

 

Yeah, the less spontaneous musical numbers or group singing i'm exposed to, the happier i'll live.

 

 

If Giselle hadn't gotten such a wonderful reverb out there among the tents and in the snow, I wouldn't have bothered that much .

[ioannisdenton]

No. This was the best story mission. As for the disney song ... what are yiu talkingabout.This was reall epic if you want to complain about something mediocre indeed complain about the last mission. Also suicide mission best mission ever in a video game.

[ThreeF]

You have the anchor. The thing that can only open the fade at that time. He needs it.

Oh yes, it kind of slipped my mind, his whole wolf thing... ooops (probably because i'm trying hard to pretend i don't know about it)

[Lee T]

Actually, there are several people in the town while it's under attack who will die if you don't save them. And given all the hell unleashed, I think it's safe to assume that many more also did as well.

Indeed, but I felt absolutely no urgency, no challenge. It can also lead to some stupid situations. I had a big WTF moment while helping the smith. Since I didn't understand that I was supposed to hit the crates (I'm an archer, so I had to break the crates with arrows...), I managed to enter the building by the other side only to discover that I couldn't open the door from the inside.
 

I guess it registers with each of us differently. I personally loved it because of all the chaos and the fact that Corypheus obviously had the upperhand, right to the point we had to sacrifice the entire town just to hope to survive.

On my end it felt as "for the par" with some tedious wave fights.
 

I liked the Chancelor's arc because he went from someone who hated you and considered you a heretic to someone who comes to trust you and is willing to die for the right cause. It was pretty awesome, given how little exposure he had.

Again, felt "for the par" to me, his character handling is far from original.
 

I of course loved traveling by myself through the snow after we'd lost everything

You won't be surprised to hear I didn't like this part either :-)
 

and then the folks start singing that song. Man... that shyt was right up there with Circle of Life. People use "Disney" as a pejorative but when they're in their stride, even "Disney" moments can be emotionally mature and powerful.

I cringed all the way through.

After what feels to me as the worst beginning in a Bioware game (I haven't played the BG series as I can't stand the AD&D ruleset), I felt very much reassured by In Hushed Whispers (to me a very good quest). I had seen that In Your Heart Shall Burn was the pivoting point for many players and expected it to be even better than In Hushed Whisper. I was very disappointed by what was, to me, a series of mishandled clichés.

As you said, it registers to us differently. Considering how many people were moved by this quest, they must have done something right. Unfortunately nothing they've done in that quest spoke to me.

As far as I'm concerned killing a key character wouldn't "fix it" as the whole rythm of the sequence feels off to me.

[VanguardCharge]

No. This was the best story mission. As for the disney song ... what are yiu talkingabout.This was reall epic if you want to complain about something mediocre indeed complain about the last mission. Also suicide mission best mission ever in a video game.

 

Yes, because a Disney song is exactly what I'm expecting from a mature game at a time of a crisis. Let me put it this way, Haven had no emotional attachment for me and the song was a poor attempt to ignite such feelings. BioWare tried to pull off a LotR and failed. 

 

And what the **** does the suicide mission have to do with this? I guess a BioWare zealot can't go with out bringing up "teh suicide mission omggggg" once a day. And yeah, I enjoyed the suicide mission (besides the reaper god baby, that was retarded). The last solid ending BioWare wrote. 

 

And...

 

Contrary to the popular beliefs of posters in this thread, I don't think that death is the only way to get an emotional response from a player.

 

Let's look at AC: Revelations (damn you BioWare for making me bring up the AC franchise as a storytelling role model). In the beginning, your fort is surprise attacked by an enemy (And you defend your fort with cannons. And then your people use ancient tunnels to escape. Sounds familiar?). 

 

During that attack, we are introduced with the villain who steals your most prized possession (an artifact that controls time and physics or something?), kidnaps your lover and kills your uncle. 

 

I did not care about my uncle's death. Or the deaths of the people who couldn't escape. What I cared about was the fact that the villain stole my most prized possession and I was thrown into a foreign city with out an immediate base, losing all my resources, including cool weapons and armor. 

 

In Inquisition, you lose a cleric who has a change of heart when mortally wounded and random NPC with whom you can have a single conversation, off screen. A cut scene and song later, you get a new, improved base. And you are named the boss. I didn't feel like I lost the battle. I felt rewarded. 

 

For this, I can blame poor pacing. We could've had a quest or two with our soldiers being miserable in the cold mountains, perhaps a quest of finding Skyhold. But getting rid of one of the many companions in this game would've been easier and tis something that BioWare is known for (DA2, ME1).

[VanguardCharge]

How about getting lifted up by my arm by an 8 foot Darkspawn Magister who is the equivalent of Satan?

You turn him to Frosty the Snow man a minute later. 

 

If I remember correctly, she even says this herself, or at least so far as the Inquisition goes. Her forthrightness is certainly a virtue.

 

She says it because it suits the plot. Show, don't tell. We never see why Cassandra is not suitable for leading the Inquisiion, while having every requirement to do so. 

 

I'm curious, why is there a "besides" here at all? What's the point of discounting any character progression at any point in the game? Is it because it's not enough or something? The Seeker quest seems pretty important, since we learn the truth about what Lucius has become, the cultists, and it's a turning point where it can determine whether or not Cassandra pursues rebuilding the order later. I'm not getting why this is insufficient.

 

Because after this short quest, as the game progresses you get the same dialogue from Cassandra regardless of whether you completed this quest or not. After one nice conversation, it doesn't matter if you did her personal quest or not. It leaves no lasting impression. Look at Sten. His personal quest was a crappy fetch quest. But doing the quest led to different conversations with him through out the game. He warmed up to you and showed it multiple times. Hardening Alistair leads to different emotions with him through out the game. Hell, in DA:I a "hardened" Lilianna is different. She has character progression that Cassandra lacks. 

[javeart]

I don't agree with the mission being bad, but I find hard to deny that Cassandra being dead would be the only reason I can imagine for somebody else taking the leadership of the Inquisition. I could easily picture her charater beng the PC, while the woman/man with the glowing hand being someone we just have to protect from Corypheus. Maybe even end up being our LI 

 

As it is, Cassandra has to show time ang again a modesty never known in a BW game, or probably in real life  , repeating all the time that she realizes she's not the leader the Inquisition needs. And what's worse, is that what I definitely think it's a quality that the plots just forces on her, is one of the things that makes me like her so much  So, I find it all a little far-fetched, but I win a Inquisitor title that comes with a very nice suite, and a lovely and capable woman as a second-in-command, so I'm fine with it 

[OriginalTibs]

I hated "In Your Heart Shall Burn". The Disney song in the end and Cory's stupidity (pulling the Harbinger in ME3's suicide run?) were only parts of the problem. The thing I hated the most was the lack of emotion toward the destruction of Haven. 

 

This was supposed to be the Inquisition's big lose, with Cory winning the battle and us scrambling. Instead, we got a new badass base. At what price? The researcher and the bar maid with whom I had a single conversation and the chantry dude who wanted me imprisoned? Instead of feeling like I lost a battle, I felt rewarded with a new base. Oh, and I found out that my arch-nemesis is stupid. 

 

In my opinion...

'Fixing' the mission may entail fixing how someone perceives it. Every issue you cite as a problem has one common element: You are the one evaluating.

 

There is a good reason why Disney is successful enough to have become a category for sorting such things, and it is a famous brand that is almost universally recognized. It is successful because it resonates with most people, even to the point where some folks find themselves embarrassed by noticing that resonance in themselves.

 

Perhaps if you could let go of your self-image maybe, and simply embrace the story, if you could drop pretension and just relax and enjoy, then you might remember the source of values in your childhood and stop worrying about how you look to others. Nobody is examining you for coolness: we are all, most of us, too engrossed in ourselves and our own stories to notice someone else' emotional response. You are free. It is okay if in the privacy of your home you find tears in your eyes over something beautiful. It is okay to be human, no matter if someone might try to convince you otherwise.

 

It doesn't make anyone any smarter than they actually are to proclaim the arch-nemesis is stupid. A story has to be accessible by many different people, the dim along with the bright. Some things necessarily will look dumb to some that will seem ingeneous to others. That has to be okay in a story that is told not just for your sake, but for the enjoyment of many.

 

It is okay to enjoy something. We won't tell. So I'm not trying to offend. I am suggesting that if you are partaking in a tale-well-told you will have to suspend disbelief to enjoy it. Otherwise you are really shortchanging yourelf.

[CronoDragoon]

The Dawn Will Come isn't spontaneous singing. It's a calculated play by Mother Giselle to elevate you in the eyes of the Inquisition. This is also why Solas encourages you to be the one heading the scout party to Skyhold. Everyone is manipulating you into fulfilling the role they know Thedas needs to rally.

[VanguardCharge]

'Fixing' the mission may entail fixing how someone perceives it. Every issue you cite as a problem has one common element: You are the one evaluating.

 

There is a good reason why Disney is successful enough to categorize such things by, and it is a famous brand that is almost universally recognized. It is successful because it resonates with most people, even to the point where some folks find themselves embarrassed by noticing that resonance in themselves.

 

Perhaps if you could let go of your self-image maybe, and simply embrace the story, if you could drop pretension and just relax and enjoy, then you might remember the source of values in your childhood and stop worrying about how you look to others. Nobody is examining you for coolness: we are all, most of us, too engrossed in ourselves and our own stories to notice someone else' emotional response. You are free. It is okay if in the privacy of your home you find tears in your eyes over something beautiful. It is okay to be human, no matter if someone might try to convince you otherwise.

 

It doesn't make anyone any smarter than they actually are to proclaim the arch-nemesis is stupid. A story has to be accessible by many different people, the dim along with the bright. Some things necessarily will look dumb to some that will seem ingeneous to others. That has to be okay in a story that is told not just for your sake, but for the enjoyment of many.

 

It is okay to enjoy something. We won't tell. So I'm not trying to offend. I am suggesting that if you are partaking in a tale-well-told you will have to suspend disbelief to enjoy it. Otherwise you are really shortchanging yourelf.

 

Yeah, I am free. And I'm free to think that "In Your Heart Shall Burn" was poor writing. I don't know what my self image has to do with my dislike for the lack of emotional attachment to Haven. Thing is, I view (eh, prior to ME2) BioWare stories as sources of mature writing, writing that tells a strong story with little plot holes and writing that makes me care about my character. This is an RPG where you are invested into your PC. The only thing I felt as my PC after "Heart" is a sense of reward because I got a promotion and a badass castle. It's not about my self image, its about poor plot progression. 

 

I can let go and embrace the sloppy writing of a story in a source of entertainment where I don't expect complex story telling. I like Mortal Kombat games. But to me, DA is complex, mature (and tis exactly how its marketed) and the world is much better developed. That's why I'm complaining, because I expect a good plot from BioWare. I don't expect a good story from Mortal Kombat, so I can let go and "embrace" the story while drinking a beer.

[VanguardCharge]

The Dawn Will Come isn't spontaneous singing. It's a calculated play by Mother Giselle to elevate you in the eyes of the Inquisition. This is also why Solas encourages you to be the one heading the scout party to Skyhold. Everyone is manipulating you into fulfilling the role they know Thedas needs to rally.

 

Why would Giselle want someone who potentially openly does not believe in the Maker,  does not believe that he is the Herald of Andrase , who might be a Dalish Elf, Quinary or a dwarf, who the world still blames for killing the Divine as the leader while Cassandra is sitting right there? Oh wait. It suits the plot and Cassandra "doesn't have the charisma" to lead, for some reason (even though its never shown).