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Fixing "In Your Heart Shall Burn"


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#126
Balek-Vriege

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Mother Giselle is an old friend of Leliana.  Leliana sent Ravens to Giselle to tell her the truth about the events at the temple and of the Herald.  The very first words out of Giselle's mouth is that of a liberal/reformist ("Magic is but as evil as your blade, do not let prejudice or something stand in the way of help" to paraphrase when talking to the wounded soldier scared of healing magic).  Throughout the game she's proven to be a reformist on par with Softened Divine Leliana and the Inquisitor can even ask Leliana after she explains her reforms why not just support Mother Giselle as Divine instead of herself?  Giselle is very accepting and empathetic to magic, other races, chantry reform etc.

 

It's pretty obvious why she would want to help you especially since you're the only known hope to save the world by closing the breach.  Getting the world to trust not only the Inquisition but the Herald is the best way to achieve that goal and her influence/advice is a great start.  She even admits in your first convo that you may build the Inquisition to be the world's savior or its destruction, but it must be done.



#127
Talian Kross

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OMG  Six pages?  Why are you guys feeding this quickly but well established forum troll?


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#128
Balek-Vriege

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OMG  Six pages?  Why are you guys feeding this quickly but well established forum troll?

 

It chases away others. :P



#129
JamieCOTC

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To each their own. The argument over this quest underscores a larger problem w/ the game. There is no real sense or urgency, loss and the victory at the end suffers for it. I don't think a major death would have helped. It may have even hurt as Cory was such a weak villain, giving him more "power" over the Inquisition would have felt too forced. For the most part, I liked "In Your Heat Shall Burn" but I would have liked to have seen more of Cory's army, like the Darkspawn army in Osatgar.


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#130
cronshaw

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I think everyone should have died

game over

that'll learn you some meaningful lessons about the fragility of life


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#131
OriginalTibs

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... I don't know what my self image has to do with my dislike...

What a person thinks of themself at the most basic level has everything to do with what that person likes or dislikes. You , me, anybody.

You say you liked preMass Effect 2 Bioware writing. That was 2010. You are five years older than you were then. You were also likely affected in your estimation of Bioware writing by what happened to ME3.

 

If it is not possible in your mind that the difference in writing quality may be more a function of who you have become rather than the talent of the writers, then that may also say more about you than it does about Bioware.

 

After the introductory twenty hours or so the story gets better in my view.


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#132
VanguardCharge

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What a person thinks of themself at the most basic level has everything to do with what that person likes or dislikes. You , me, anybody.

You say you liked preMass Effect 2 Bioware writing. That was 2010. You are five years older than you were then. You were also likely affected in your estimation of Bioware writing by what happened to ME3.

 

If it is not possible in your mind that the difference in writing quality may be more a function of who you have become rather than the talent of the writers, then that may also say more about you than it does about Bioware.

 

I can replay DA:O or ME:1 at my current age right now and still see that the writing is far more superior. I also think that the story in ME3 (besides the last mission) is superior to the main story (aka side quest) of ME2.  



#133
CronoDragoon

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Why would Giselle want someone who potentially openly does not believe in the Maker,  does not believe that he is the Herald of Andrase , who might be a Dalish Elf, Quinary or a dwarf, who the world still blames for killing the Divine as the leader while Cassandra is sitting right there? Oh wait. It suits the plot and Cassandra "doesn't have the charisma" to lead, for some reason (even though its never shown). 

 

Because Giselle knows it's irrelevant what you believe. Seriously how many times does this game have to tell you that? All that is required is an Inquisitor that wants to stop the world from ending. It doesn't matter whether it's a Vashoth or Dwarf or Elf. The people need to believe that you were sent by Andraste or else admit the Maker has abandoned them. The Haven bartender even talks about how the Maker is punishing humans for mistreating elves by sending his messenger in the form of an elf. It's rationalization and it's completely believable. On the Inquisitor's end, refusing to become the Inquisitor because you don't believe in Andraste means you're role-playing a petty idiot. I'm glad the game doesn't support that.

 

Also, you should probably provide some game evidence to support your claim that the world still believes you killed the Divine after you close the Breach.


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#134
TK514

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I hated every single instance of vocal music in DA:I.  They were all godawful and stilted.  "Dawn Will Come" is no exception.

 

I also, once I got over the moment of 'cool, it's Cory!', found Heartburn to be a pretty meh quest.

 

It's really just a precursor to the rest of the game, where it is virtually impossible for the Inquisition (and especially the Inquisitor) to do anything wrong.  It's not even really a defeat, since the end result is to give you a base that is completely and utterly unassailable.  For the first 15-20 hours, every military minded individual you talk to complains about how Haven sucks and is completely indefensible, and poof, your reward for losing it is a magic sky castle that never once gets even a passing thought from your enemies.

 

It isn't so much an 'oh no, we lost our home!' moment as it is a 'finally, we get to leave that hovel and go to our real base' moment.  It's made worse by the aftermath making any effort to save our staff completely meaningless by immediately replacing them all.

 

The only message a person could possibly take away from Heartburn is "Haven didn't matter, so forget about it".


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#135
yankblan

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Making you the leader makes no sense. Having the mark on your hand doesn't mean you have the ability to be the kind of leader the Inquisition needs - its just an extremely fortuitous circumstance for them that you are so unusually amazing at everything. Putting you up there as a figurehead for the public is one thing, but they acutally *are* deferring to you and conferring that leadership role to you in private as well, which is just crazy. As several bright sparks point out, you don't even know how it works - you just wiggle your fingers and hey presto. How does that qualify you to be the Spearhead point of contact in all situations, chief diplomat on all critical matters (you use Josephine - your diplomat - for all the day to day stuff, but your Inqusitior handles all the important stuff without her?!)

 

The reality is that wouldn't work this way *at all*. As soon as they worked out that your mark was the only way to close the rifts, then that would be it for your personal freedom. You may be honored and valued by the Inquisition, but you would also be far too valuable and necessary an asset to ever leave to your own devices, even for just a few minutes. You'd be flanked by bodyguards and attendants everywhere you go - which wouldn't be far, because outside of pre-planned excursions to rift sites for closing them, you'd be confined to a place they can easily protect you. Because without you, they have *no means* of closing the rifts. They're not just going to let you go rolling about the countryside, with just a handful of people in hostile territory! They'd look like right lemons if the world was destroyed by the rifts, simply because they let you gallivant about, because you 'needed some space'.

 

Putting you into the role of leader is (as many have mentioned) just one of the many Disney like aspects of this game. To pull something like that off, the protagonist needs to be charming or charismatic or self effacing, hapless... something. But your character is just some tonally neutral avatar with a mark on their hand, with all the inspirational qualities of a dead badger. Instead of growing into the role, and as the OP suggests being presented with a trauma that *demands* you learn to overcome any doubts etc and knuckle down (which should be shown even if only in montage like in KOTOR), it goes thusly:

 

Advisors: So... we need you to be the Inquisitor.

 

You: Er... you want me?

 

Advisors: Yes.

 

You: Well... alright, then. (Spreads a map over the bonnet). We need to do this, and then I need all your intel on these people, then I'll lead these troops over here.... Come on people - I need options!

 

 

You're just instantly the most capable person ever at everything. And everyone else stops mattering at all, going back to their usual round of 'I've got trouble with my parents/parental substitute/old lovers' etc etc etc.Cassandra's fall from grace is simply the most pronounced, as she goes from Main Character to Yesterday's Hero. With absolutely no warning, she suddenly decides she has no interest at all in being involved in any of the big decisions, and that's that for her in the main story.

 

And what of Corypheus? Well, he's too busy sitting in his base thinking 'Man... why *did* I throw him right next to the last working Trebuchet, instead of just killing him?! And why did I tell him all that stutff about my powers and my evil plans when I was going to kill him anyway? Doh!' 

 

You forget this angle: in a couple of instances, the advisors disagree on what to do, coming from different backgrounds (Templar, spymaster, politician, warrior), and in some cases, need you to break the tie, since you're a new voice that isn't polluted (theorically) by prejudice one way or the other.  Plus, remember that Cass and Cullen still believe you're a divine incarnation or a gift/sign/savior sent by the Maker.  Josephine is not entirely sold but is politically aware of your worth, and Cass is confused about where to go next with this thing; is he, isn't he?



#136
NM_Che56

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I heard the song and thought of that cheesy scene from Hobbit.  

 

 

I groaned in dismay...

 

It reminded me of this damn thing

 

 

My 5 year old daughter saw the scene in DA:I and said, "What is THAT... :\ " and laughed.  Yeah, she's my baby. LOL



#137
OriginalTibs

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...Right. So it is manifest that each of our evaluations of the quality of the narrative may differ with the point of view. Pronouncements of merit are thus more likely announcements of the quality of the viewer rather than of the viewed.



#138
NM_Che56

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...Right. So it is manifest that each of our evaluations of the quality of the narrative may differ with the point of view. Pronouncements of merit are thus more likely announcements of the quality of the viewer rather than of the viewed.

uh...

 

frabz-English-do-you-speak-it-0e950a.jpg

lol



#139
TK514

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uh...

 

frabz-English-do-you-speak-it-0e950a.jpg

lol

 

They're just trying to sound smart by using unnecessary phrasing to say "Everyone has their own opinion".


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#140
OriginalTibs

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They're just trying to sound smart by using unnecessary phrasing to say "Everyone has their own opinion".

No. Differing opinions cannot rightly evaluate as equal. An opinion that bears great resemblance to the truth (the case) by complying with all known facts is greater than any opinion that does not, or that complies less with facts.

 

The hazard of art criticism is that the reviewer also discloses who they are. The hazard of tendering an opinion is that doing so may reveal ignorance.


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#141
NM_Che56

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No. Opinions cannot rightly evaluate to equal. An opinion that bears great resemblance to the truth (the case) by complying with all known facts is greater than any opinion that does not, or that complies less with facts.

 

The hazard of art criticism is that the reviewer also discloses who they are. The hazard of tendering an opnion is that doing so may reveal ignorance.

*reading*

 

house_stare.gif



#142
OriginalTibs

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So, English is a problem?



#143
NM_Che56

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So, English is a problem?

No.  Just the use of it.

 

Observe:

jaden-smith-how-can-mirrors-be-real-spac


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#144
OriginalTibs

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So don't use it, Che.



#145
NM_Che56

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So don't use it, Che.

Where's the fun in that?


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#146
Nimlowyn

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What? I don't understand the difficulty here. Not all opinions are equal. An opinion that misunderstands, misinterprets and/of misrepresents the facts, is not equal to one that does not (or does to a lesser degree, anyway). Part of debate is determining which interpretation is more sound given the facts.
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#147
NM_Che56

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What? I don't understand the difficulty here. Not all opinions are equal. An opinion that misunderstands, misinterprets and/of misrepresents the facts, is not equal to one that does not (or does to a lesser degree, anyway). Part of debate is determining which interpretation is more sound given the facts.

 

AH! Plainly said. ;) 


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#148
TK514

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What? I don't understand the difficulty here. Not all opinions are equal. An opinion that misunderstands, misinterprets and/of misrepresents the facts, is not equal to one that does not (or does to a lesser degree, anyway). Part of debate is determining which interpretation is more sound given the facts.

 

I am considerably less interested in a debate on the relative merit of opinions that I am of an actual discussion about the quest "In Your Heart Shall Burn".



#149
Nimlowyn

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I am considerably less interested in a debate on the relative merit of opinions that I am of an actual discussion about the quest "In Your Heart Shall Burn".


Fair enough. ;)
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#150
yankblan

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I heard the song and thought of that cheesy scene from Hobbit.  

 

 

I groaned in dismay...

 

It reminded me of this damn thing

 

 

My 5 year old daughter saw the scene in DA:I and said, "What is THAT... :\ " and laughed.  Yeah, she's my baby. LOL

 

Just be thankful that "The Fellowship Of The Ring" didn't include Tom Bombadil...