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[Shahadem]

Actually, at the end of the Heart Shall Burn quest you emerged victorious. You whupped Cory's ass, destroyed his army, and only lost a few soldiers. Sure Haven was destroyed, but that was only a few buildings. Everyone should have been celebrating. Having everyone act all depressed made no sense under the circumstances. It's like "oh no! we just won the war! how terrible!"

 

I also don't get how it took so long for the Inquisitor to catch up to a large group of people who had left the building only a few minutes before the Inquisitor did. Did they all get into the snowmobiles that were carefully hidden behind Haven? This is a large group of people, they aren't going to be moving that quickly. And why did they all just up and abandon the Inquisitor? They couldn't wait even 5 minutes for the Inquisitor to make it out of Haven? I mean according to the number of fires you find, it took days for the Inquisitor to catch up to the Inquisition. And how is that the only thing the Inquisition left behind were 3 firebeds? There were hundreds of people who made it out of Haven, many of whom likely in worse shape than the Inquisitor, and with no more supplies than the Inquisitor had. It just didn't make any sense.

 

And if the game had let me, I would have added the death of Corypheus to my list of achievements at Haven as well. But of course the game is constantly taking your agency away from you so you never get to actually fight Cory because the devs knew you'd kill him and end the game right then and there.

 

Made me think of a particular scene from The Incredibles:

 

Helen: This is not about you, Bob. This is about Dash.

Bob: You want to do something for Dash? Well, let him actually compete! Let him go out for sports!

Helen: I will not be made the enemy here! You *know* why we can't!

Bob: Because he'd be *GREAT*!

 

Oh well. At least it wasn't ME3 bad. In ME3 Shephard goes all super depressed because she was beaten by plot armor and a complete removal of agency, plot holes, and just bad storyboarding. Seriously, if one of the key features of your game is the ability to interupt dialogue in a cutscene in order to murderkill someone, then I should have had the option to interupt every cutscene with Kai Leng in it and murderkill him. I was able to in ME2 when the Krogan was monologuing, when the droids were climbing over the wall, when the reporter was trying to interview me, when basically everyone is talking and I just don't want to let them finish because I know where they are going. You even got to do this in a few parts of ME3 but never in a scene involving the Mary Sue space ninja. The players had the same problem with the Bandit King in The Gamers movie:

<players are stopped in the middle of the path by a large group of bandits. Two guards step forward>

Guard 1. Make way for the bandit king!

Guard 2: All hail the bandit King!

Bandit King: Good day gentlemen, I am the bandit king and this road...

<Newmoon shoots the Bandit King in the throat>

 

Dungeon Master: Would you let me finish his speech first?

Newmoons' Player: Why should I? He's going to try to kill us!

Dungeon Master: You don't know that.

<some discussion about how Newmoon is still startled and needs to wait 3 turns before performing an action>

 

Bandit King: You see this road belongs to me and there's a toll. You see the Bandit King is in the employ of the Shadow.

Rogar: <Surprised> The Shadow!?

Nimble: <shocked> The Shadow!?

Newmoon: <resolved> The Shadow.

Bandit King: Should you choose to pass peacefully, the toll is merely all your worldly possessions.

<Newmoon shoots the Bandit King in the throat with an arrow>

 

Dungeon Master: You are seriously pissing me off.

Newmoons Player: What? 3 rounds is 15 seconds. I counted them off. I get to attack.

Dungeon Master: You don't get to attack until I say so.

<more argument>

Dungeon Master: You can't attack until I say so. Stop killing him off and let him finish speaking.

 

Bandit King: Should you choose to pass peacefully, the toll is merely all your worldly possessions. Should you choose to fight, the toll is your lives.

<bandits attack the party, big surprise>

Fast forward to 20:00

 

You can't let the player be involved in the story if you are constantly taking the player out of the story and robbing them of their agency to act within the story.

[KaiserShep]

If romance matters that  much, I guess Vivienne could've been romance-able. Or Sera could've been bi. Really has no impact on the story. 

 

Romance is just one part of it. Cassandra is the only companion of the entire cast that can go from hatred to admiration/love. None of the others really make this shift. Solas already kind of seems friendly, as does Varric, and just about everyone else, unless you make them hate you later. Cassandra was pretty ready to kill the Inquisitor.

 

As for having no impact on the story, this is not a state of fact. For myself, this also includes companion interaction, the relationships that can develop or deteriorate between the PC and the followers, and the things you learn about them. They're just as much a part of the story. For me, how Cassandra and the Inquisitor's friendship develops in the story has a pretty decent impact, because the story can't just be beat this, beat that, fight villain whatever. And honestly, it's the former that makes the latter matter more for me.

 

In any case, as one who finds Vivienne a wholly undesirable character for romance and tepid at best for friendship, I can't say that I'm left wanting on that end.

[KaiserShep]

Actually, at the end of the Heart Shall Burn quest you emerged victorious. You whupped Cory's ass, destroyed his army, and only lost a few soldiers. Sure Haven was destroyed, but that was only a few buildings. Everyone should have been celebrating. Having everyone act all despressed made no sense under the circumstances. I also don't get how it took so long for the Inquisitor to catch up to a large group of people who had left the building only a few minutes before the Inquisitor did. Did they all get into the snowmobiles that were carefully hidden behind Haven? This is a large group of people, they aren't going to moving that quickly. And why did they all just up and abandon the Inquisitor? They couldn't wait even 5 minutes for the Inquisitor to make it out of Haven?

 

They were stuck out in the cold with nowhere to go. Skyhold was something that Solas was keeping to himself the entire time, so as far as anyone was concerned, they might very well be screwed, with no assurance that there would be any way they could maintain the Inquisition if its center of operations is cast about in the wilderness.

 

The reason the Inquisitor was abandoned was because the plan was to destroy Haven to stop the Red Templars or whoever from pursuing. If a large group of people came to help, in all likelihood they would simply have been buried in the avalanche and died. The Inquisitor left the Chantry knowing full well that s/he may very well just end up alone in the mountains.

[zeypher]

Actually, at the end of the Heart Shall Burn quest you emerged victorious. You whupped Cory's ass, destroyed his army, and only lost a few soldiers. Sure Haven was destroyed, but that was only a few buildings. Everyone should have been celebrating. Having everyone act all depressed made no sense under the circumstances. It's like "oh no! we just won the war! how terrible!"

 

I also don't get how it took so long for the Inquisitor to catch up to a large group of people who had left the building only a few minutes before the Inquisitor did. Did they all get into the snowmobiles that were carefully hidden behind Haven? This is a large group of people, they aren't going to be moving that quickly. And why did they all just up and abandon the Inquisitor? They couldn't wait even 5 minutes for the Inquisitor to make it out of Haven? I mean according to the number of fires you find, it took days for the Inquisitor to catch up to the Inquisition. And how is that the only thing the Inquisition left behind were 3 firebeds? There were hundreds of people who made it out of Haven, many of whom likely in worse shape than the Inquisitor, and with no more supplies than the Inquisitor had. It just didn't make any sense.

 

And if the game had let me, I would have added the death of Corypheus to my list of achievements at Haven as well. But of course the game is constantly taking your agency away from you so you never get to actually fight Cory because the devs knew you'd kill him and end the game right then and there.

 

Made me think of a particular scene from The Incredibles:

 

 

 

Oh well. At least it wasn't ME3 bad. In ME3 Shephard goes all super depressed because she was beaten by plot armor and a complete removal of agency, plot holes, and just bad storyboarding. Seriously, if one of the key features of your game is the ability to interupt dialogue in a cutscene in order to murderkill someone, then I should have had the option to interupt every cutscene with Kai Leng in it and murderkill him. I was able to in ME2 when the Krogan was monologuing, when the droids were climbing over the wall, when the reporter was trying to interview me, when basically everyone is talking and I just don't want to let them finish because I know where they are going. You even got to do this in a few parts of ME3 but never in a scene involving the Mary Sue space ninja. The players had the same problem with the Bandit King in The Gamers movie:

 

Fast forward to 20:00

 

You can't let the player be involved in the story if you are constantly taking the player out of the story and robbing them of their agency to act within the story.

Agreed

[OriginalTibs]

Actually, at the end of the Heart Shall Burn quest you emerged victorious. You whupped Cory's ass, destroyed his army, and only lost a few soldiers. Sure Haven was destroyed, but that was only a few buildings. Everyone should have been celebrating. Having everyone act all depressed made no sense under the circumstances.

Refugees who lost ther home and have learned the enemy is not only a powerful and twisted mage but is served by a fire-breathing undead dragon, with nothing more than what they were able to gather up and carry, wandering out in the wilderness without a home (they haven't yet been led to Skyhold) and you expect them to be full of cheer?

 

The ability to read/experience a story varies with the reader/player. Where some individuals get a wonderful experience from a tale and others do not it is certain that how well the individual reads has a bearing on the quality of the experience. The quest is the same for each: it is an objective corpus that exists in itself. For those who did not have a good experience of the tale to assert that their experience was because of bad writing isn't merited. If I enjoyed it and you didn't you aren't a victim of bad writing, you were a victim of how you read it. Others very much enjoyed the story. Each of us had the same opportunity: there was no difference in what was written. The story the authors wrote was the same for each of us. What we got out of it was a function of the individual. I'm not a victim of bad writing if you merely read poorly. I am just a better reader.

[OriginalTibs]

Regarding my use of 'read better': I'm suggesting ' read better' and 'read worse' as a relative value where the objective of the reader/player determines good and bad. If my objective in reading or playing is personal enjoyment, then if my personal enjoyment was my objective and I enjoyed my reading or playing then my objective was achieved and I read or played well. If my objective had been to be critical of something then obviously my reading/playing didn't achieve my objective and I would have to then admit my reading was poor. Fortunately for me my objective, the reason I bought the game in the first place, was to enjoy it, so for my purposes I read well.

[Jestina]

The song part was stupid...and sadly, i couldn't skip it.

[cronshaw]

-snip-

You can't let the player be involved in the story if you are constantly taking the player out of the story and robbing them of their agency to act within the story.

While I don't completely disagree with the sentiment of your post, the agency possible in a table top RPG dwarfs the agency possible in a CRPG.

Table top RPGs are collaborative storytelling, CRPGs are interactive storytelling.

in one everyone participates in the story building and contributes portions that make up the whole story: everyone is a creative agent

in the other the player interacts with a story that has been already constructed and determined, they can tease it one way or another through the choices offered them but they have no creative input (aside from any head cannon they want to imagine)

a metaphor:

table top RPGs are cooking a meal at home with friends

CRPGs are going to a nice restaurant (though i suppose the "niceness" depends on how you fell about the specific game)

they problem is people want to conflate the two instead of accepting each of them on their own merits

that being said I don't disagree that games could benefit from the addition of the appearance of more agency

though I do think complete license is counterproductive to a compelling and coherent narrative 

[OriginalTibs]

I believe there are well written novels, and the reader has no agency in those whatsoever save to open or close, turn page, or set bookmark..