I was talking to Vivienne and she was telling me about her suite in the Circle and her wing at the estate. But she said that most mages were allowed to live outside the Circle with the First Enchanters permission, and that Kirkwall was an exception. When exactly did this start because I know in Origins during the mage origin I didn't feel like I could leave? Mages were escaping the Circle not walking out.
Has this ever been mentioned before?
In Origins, you just got to the rank of Mage, and then you became a Warden the next day. Apprentices certainly can't leave since they haven't been tested.
Not exactly sure why some would want to move out, it was pretty nice in that tower. Finn certainly didn't care to leave until he found out he could discover more history and knowledge to geek out on that the Circle couldn't get for him.
In The Stone Prisoner, we learn about a mage who lived where you find Shale, he even had a family. Mostly, this is due to his involvement with Fereldan's liberation, but it is an example of a Circle mage getting the nod to live outside the tower.
We have seen enchanters outside the Circle before, like that one botanist in Awakening.
I'm just giving examples of the life of mages shown before DA2, so it isn't a new thing, Vivienne just highlights it for those coming from DA2.
I haven't seen this dialog so I'll just have to go on your description.
I take great exception to her acting like she knows what all goes on in every Circle she is not a member of. Each Circle conducts things in their own way based on the relationship between its templar Knight-Commander and First Enchanter. Some Circles are more liberal than others. Some are more abusive than others. And each mage within all of those circles will have had a different experience from their fellow mages.
So, either she is just spouting total bullshit, or the devs made an error with her dialog. Either one is likely.
@Daerog - The OP's description of the dialog makes it sound like the mages can just go "I wanna move out of the house dad," and get permission. Those few cases you listed were an exception, not a common practice, and were allowed for specific purposes and magical research.
I was talking to Vivienne and she was telling me about her suite in the Circle and her wing at the estate. But she said that most mages were allowed to live outside the Circle with the First Enchanters permission, and that Kirkwall was an exception. When exactly did this start because I know in Origins during the mage origin I didn't feel like I could leave? Mages were escaping the Circle not walking out.
Has this ever been mentioned before?
Which doesn't really make sense when you consider that we have multiple codex entries about mages who fled the Circles because they didn't want to live in the Circle and be "a servant of the Chantry" or live "in servitude to the Chantry". Vivienne seems like a character who is intended to soften the image of the Chantry controlled Circles and demonize the concept of mage autonomy (which she specifically associates with "terrorism", so you can already see her bias), despite the fact that her claim doesn't really mesh well with the multiple accounts where mages risked their lives simply to live outside the Circle Tower.
Mages can leave the circle as long as they get permission from the First Enchanter or in some cases Warden Commander.
And there have been many mentions of Senior mages having houses outside of the circles or mage's given permission to go on expeditions for research.
You even see both Wynne and Finn being aloud to leave the circle.
Which doesn't really make sense when you consider that we have multiple codex entries about mages who fled the Circles because they didn't want to live in the Circle and be "a servant of the Chantry" or live "in servitude to the Chantry". Vivienne seems like a character who is intended to soften the image of the Chantry controlled Circles and demonize the concept of mage autonomy (which she specifically associates with "terrorism", so you can already see her bias), despite the fact that her claim doesn't really mesh well with the multiple accounts where mages risked their lives simply to live outside the Circle Tower.
Not every Circle is the same. that is mentioned many times through out the game, that mage's are given different rights and treated different ways in all the different circles. Kirkwall being the extreme exception to the rest of the circles.
Vivienne is speaking about Circle policy that the Enchanters set for all Circles. The mages set the policy for how Circle's are governed, and the First Enchanter sees to the governing of individual circles.
However, Templars have been able to encroach on the autonomy of the enchanters with running their Circles, and have their policies overlap into the duties of running the Circle. The Templars were never meant to govern the Circles, just like the military is not meant to run a republic, but they can encroach and eventually run the show. This is what happened with some Circles by the time Dragon Age rolled around.
With Vivienne now in charge of the whole Circle system as Divine in my canon, she can have the Circle run as it was originally intended.
@Daerog - The OP's description of the dialog makes it sound like the mages can just go "I wanna move out of the house dad," and get permission. Those few cases you listed were an exception, not a common practice, and were allowed for specific purposes and magical research.
The First Enchanter is responsible for the mages under his or her care. Homes and security are not abundant outside the Circle. A mage would most likely be rejected. Especially if that mage is rebellious or is not a model Circle mage, since he or she could start trouble outside the Circle.
All you need is the First Enchanter's permission, but you are unlikely to get it unless the FE is confident in you being able to take care of yourself and the Chantry not causing a stink over it. No one wants a bunch of mages concentrated outside a Circle tower, but very few here and there can be ignored.
Edit: Templars may still be able to take you back to the Tower if they have an issue with a mage outside the Circle, leaving a Circle tower leaves a mage vulnerable to forces outside the Circle.
^ However it evolves in your own game is irrelevant. If she says "Kirkwall was an exception" then she is talking about how the Circles have been run in the past. And again, she doesn't know the inner workings of ALL Circles, just her own.
Since I haven't seen the dialog myself all I have to go on is the OP's description. "But she said that most mages were allowed to live outside the Circle with the First Enchanters permission, and that Kirkwall was an exception." This wording tells me that it is a common occurrence, which we know is not the case.
My only issue here is her acting like she knows everything.
I haven't seen this dialog so I'll just have to go on your description.
I take great exception to her acting like she knows what all goes on in every Circle she is not a member of. Each Circle conducts things in their own way based on the relationship between its templar Knight-Commander and First Enchanter. Some Circles are more liberal than others. Some are more abusive than others. And each mage within all of those circles will have had a different experience from their fellow mages.
So, either she is just spouting total bullshit, or the devs made an error with her dialog. Either one is likely.
@Daerog - The OP's description of the dialog makes it sound like the mages can just go "I wanna move out of the house dad," and get permission. Those few cases you listed were an exception, not a common practice, and were allowed for specific purposes and magical research.
What are you talking about? Vivienne tells you that each Circle is different. She basically parrots the bolded word for word.
^ However it evolves in your own game is irrelevant. If she says "Kirkwall was an exception" then she is talking about how the Circles have been run in the past. And again, she doesn't know the inner workings of ALL Circles, just her own.
Since I haven't seen the dialog myself all I have to go on is the OP's description. "But she said that most mages were allowed to live outside the Circle with the First Enchanters permission, and that Kirkwall was an exception." This wording tells me that it is a common occurrence, which we know is not the case.
My only issue here is her acting like she knows everything.
I'm going to try and find a save before that so I can Fraps it.
You ask her how it is being confined and she says she has a large suite in the tower as well as an entire wing of an estate of a man she was a mistress of. Then she says most mages lived outside the circle with the First Enchanters permission as if it's not really confinement the way you asked her.
Mages can leave the circle as long as they get permission from the First Enchanter or in some cases Warden Commander.
And there have been many mentions of Senior mages having houses outside of the circles or mage's given permission to go on expeditions for research.
Wynne was allowed to aid a Grey Warden during a time of Blight, and Asunder explicitly reads that she has freedoms that no other Circle mage has, which is why many Circle mages who opposed her support for the Chantry controlled Circles criticized her. If you're talking about Ines, she was studying a plant that was rumored to grow in Blighted soil after the Fifth Blight devastated parts of Ferelden.
You even see both Wynne and Finn being aloud to leave the circle.
With a Grey Warden who is serving as the Warden-Commander of Ferelden.
Not every Circle is the same. that is mentioned many times through out the game, that mage's are given different rights and treated different ways in all the different circles. Kirkwall being the extreme exception to the rest of the circles.
If most mages were allowed to live outside, then there would be little point to so many codex entries making reference to mages fleeing the Circles to live outside the Circle Tower in different regions. It's contradictory to what Vivienne claims. Even the Starkhaven mages point out that the Circle of Starkhaven was bad as well, so it's not like the Circle of Kirkwall was the only place with unpleasant conditions.
What are you talking about? Vivienne tells you that each Circle is different. She basically parrots the bolded word for word.
This is correct.
Just as Celene has a place in the court for a mage, so too, I'm sure did Duke Bastian, thus Viv had a place in HIS estate, as Morrigan had a place in the Imperial Palace. Yes some mages are allowed such living arrangements. It benefits the circle to have nobles on their good side, so naturally mages would be sent to noble houses if they were wanted there and, had proven themselves capable conformists.
Vivienne is pretty clear that each circle (down to the individual magi's experience themselves) has a unique and subjective perspective.
As she says, some circles are more lenient and liberal with their magi, giving them special privileges and benefits such as being able to live outside the circle and being free to conduct business and travel (Montsimmard as Vivienne explains it), and some are more austere and stringent, with some circles going so far as to more or less gulag, lobotomize, or even outright execute their magi for mild mistakes, accidents, or infractions ( Kirkwall for example). And of course, there are plenty of in-between circles (such as Fereldan).
There is an overall policy that the Enchanters set for the Circle.
They do meet from time to time in Cumberland to discuss Circle policy. It is at one of these meetings that Fiona voiced her belief that the Circle should split from the Chantry.
She has also been to other Circles, not just her own.
So, she has met other FE's many times, at least through those meetings in Cumberland, she has visited multiple Circles, and she is all about politics and the Game, so I'd assume she knows more than she lets on.
Does she know everything about all the Circles? Doubtful.
Does her opinion and beliefs affect how she views the Circle, its policies, and such? Of course, just like how some people focus on the bad things about the Circle because they believe it is bad and how I like to focus on the good things because I like the Circle system.
People on here have even defended the Qun at times because they focus on the good parts of it.
However, just because she has bias doesn't mean she is lying or mistaken, it is just another way mages can view the Circle.
Edit: I just want to mention again, that just because mages can get permission, it is unlikely a FE will give it, since people outside the Circles don't want a bunch of mages running around. Also, it is more secure to live in a Circle for most people who do not have ties to nobility. Some have no connections outside the Circle, so having them just be vagabonds would be silly and irresponsible.
Templars were encroaching on the roles of the Enchanters and the daily operations of different Circles, so this did cause issues in some Circles. However, just because Templars were forcing themselves into running Circles doesn't mean that was official Circle policy.
Did no play Shale's quest in origins? If a mage has proven themselves enough and have the political back then of course they can live outside the circle. Shale's old master was an example of that. Mark of the assassin had lore about this as well. Vivi is a master at political manipulation, of course she would find a way to live outside the circle.
Wynne leaves the Ferelden circle for at least a year to adventure with you, and Innes the botanist in Awakening roams the countryside unsupervised. As long as you prove you're trustworthy and get permission you can do whatever. The Kirkwall circle was retarded because DA2 was forced and over the top where every Templar was a crazy, oppressive, murdering rapist and every mage was a crazy, human(and elf) sacrificing, child raping blood mage.
It seems like a mage wanting to live outside the circle either has to have proven themselves or have an obvious want to gather data.
I always had the impression that Vivienne confirmed; that each circle is different and that some operate more freely with their tested mages. It seems like the Ostwick circle is quite free as well, and the more strict ones were the Kirkwall, Starkhaven and Rivain ones.
Did no play Shale's quest in origins? If a mage has proven themselves enough and have the political back then of course they can live outside the circle. Shale's old master was an example of that. Mark of the assassin had lore about this as well. Vivi is a master at political manipulation, of course she would find a way to live outside the circle.
If you play a human mage Inquisitor, you can also tell Josephine that you often went home for visits.
I always had the impression that Vivienne confirmed; that each circle is different and that some operate more freely with their tested mages. It seems like the Ostwick circle is quite free as well, and the more strict ones were the Kirkwall, Starkhaven and Rivain ones.
Just a clarification: Kirkwall was the strictest, Rivain was the most lenient, Ferelden was "moderate", and the only information given to us about Starkhaven's Circle is given to us by Blood Mages, and therefore must be taken with a grain of salt. Ostwick's Circle seems to be equivalent to Fereleden's circle in regards to mage freedoms, based on the dialogue options for a human mage Inquisitor.
I have to play through the fade again to get back to that conversation. But if you have the option to have her tell you about herself choose it. Then she'll tell you about being a mistress for some rich noble, then ask her about her life in the circle, and was confinement hard.
My only issue with it was that she definitely said with the exception of Kirkwall, and I know I didn't get the impression in Origins that mages could just come and go, Templars seemed more like prison guards.
Wynne leaves the Ferelden circle for at least a year to adventure with you, and Innes the botanist in Awakening roams the countryside unsupervised. As long as you prove you're trustworthy and get permission you can do whatever. The Kirkwall circle was retarded because DA2 was forced and over the top where every Templar was a crazy, oppressive, murdering rapist and every mage was a crazy, human(and elf) sacrificing, child raping blood mage.
DA2 was just there to show how bad it can get. As Vivi said "Every circle is different."
I have to play through the fade again to get back to that conversation. But if you have the option to have her tell you about herself choose it. Then she'll tell you about being a mistress for some rich noble, then ask her about her life in the circle, and was confinement hard.
My only issue with it was that she definitely said with the exception of Kirkwall, and I know I didn't get the impression in Origins that mages could just come and go, Templars seemed more like prison guards.
...... 
Fereldin circle was no where near a prison. It's one of the better circles in Thedus.
......
Fereldin circle was no where near a prison. It's one of the better circles in Thedus.
So the doors weren't magically sealed and you weren't trying to steal a Phylactery to get someone's freedom. A person who apparently could have eventually just walked out after proving trustworthy?
If you can't leave when you want you're in custody.
DA2 was just there to show how bad it can get. As Vivi said "Every circle is different."
It was poorly done.
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