242 réponses à ce sujet

[Wittand25]

Only in DAI are mages allowed to live outside the circle. They were never able to in DA:O or DA2.

 

The only mages who got to live outside the tower in DA:O and DA2 are mages who were able to either raise armies, escape from the tower and destroy their blood vial, or simply avoid detection by the chantry. There is no single case in DA:O and DAI of mages every being granted the privelage of living outside the circle simply because of good behaviour.

What about Ines, who was allowed to wander the spirit infested haunted woods completely unsupervised ? (DA:A)

Malcom who first roamed the deep roads by himself (Stone prisoner) and later joined the army of the rebel queen (Stolen Throne)?

[Ryriena]

What about Ines, who was allowed to wander the spirit infested haunted woods completely unsupervised ? (DA:A)
Malcom who first roamed the deep roads by himself (Stone prisoner) and later joined the army of the rebel queen (Stolen Throne)?

Malcom was given a boon by King Maric.

[o Ventus]

Then it's an awfully huge coincidence that he dies as soon as he finishes drinking the potion Viv feeds him. Face it, Viv poisoned him. That's why she needed to have you collect the poison from the creatures with the most toxic poison and why he died as soon as he drank the potion.

He was very clearly dying before he drank. He also dies regardless of whatever action you take for that quest.

[IanPolaris]

What about Ines, who was allowed to wander the spirit infested haunted woods completely unsupervised ? (DA:A)

Malcom who first roamed the deep roads by himself (Stone prisoner) and later joined the army of the rebel queen (Stolen Throne)?

As was already explained, Malcom was a special case due to his relationship with King Maric....and the FE hid a LOT from the Chantry when it came to Malcom.  Basically Malcom was breaking the rules and had been for years with the FE covering for him (and hiding it from the Chantry...read the letter from the FE to Malcom in Stone Prisoner).

 

As for Ines, she is a world renowned botonist who pretty clearly had permission to gather unique herbs and herb studies in blight infested areas.  Essentially she was another special case...and even then had what we would consider to be 'parole' not freedom.

[Daerog]

All mages who can live outside the Circle are special cases.

 

It was not a common thing, but Viv saying that most Circles could let mages live outside with the consent of the First Enchanter is not a lie just because we don't know of many examples. We have only seen two Circles, anyway. One which was probably moderate and one which was extremely totalitarian with the leadership of the mages and Templars being corrupt in some way.

 

Saying that the mage in the Stone Prisoner was a special case does not dismiss the fact that he was an official Circle mage with permission of the Circle to live outside the Circle. He was given a boon by Maric, sure, but he still had to have the permission of the Circle, the king can't force the Circle to do something as can be seen if the Mage Warden asks for an independent Circle. Maric giving him a boon gave him stability outside the Circle, if he did not have the connections or the support of Maric, likely the Circle would have denied him because the FE wouldn't want to make Circle mages bums outside the tower.

 

Living outside the Circle is dependent on local nobility and such as well. Some nobles or royals may not allow a Circle mage to own a home in a city or nearby town. They may act against a Circle mage who tries, so the FE won't allow a mage outside if they can't find stability outside, that would be irresponsible.

 

Apostates are unregistered and can blend in, so Malcolm Hawke could, but Circle mages are known and tabs are kept on them, so they can't hide as well as an apostate.

[Wittand25]

Wilhelm was in the deep roads on his own long before there was a King Maric.

 

He was already in possession of Shale when the rebel queen Moira (Maric´s mother for those who did not read the stolen throne) died.

 

So no, his relations to Maric are most definitly not what made it possible for him to leave the circle tower for an indefinite amount of time.

 

And even his presence in Moira´s court is well rather unusual since by the point of view of Orleas (and the Chantry) at the time she was an outlaw trying to overthrow the goverment. So political pull hardly is a reason why this was allowed.

 

 

Edit: Mixed up Malcom Hawke (apostate) with Wilhelm (circle mage).

[IanPolaris]

Malcom was in the deep roads on his own long before there was a King Maric.

 

He was already in possession of Shale when the rebel queen Moira (Maric´s mother for those who did not read the stolen throne) died.

 

So no, his relations to Maric are most definitly not what made it possible for him to leave the circle tower for an indefinite amount of time.

 

And even his presence in Moira´s court is well rather unusual since by the point of view of Orleas (and the Chantry) at the time she was an outlaw trying to overthrow the goverment. So political pull hardly is a reason why this was allowed.

 

Read the FE's letter to Wilhelm.  Wilhelm was doing a lot of research that was against Chantry law and with the FE's full knowledge.  Basically Wilhelm  was allowed to live as he did not just because of political connections but because he allowed the FE to do research and otherwise break Chantry Law while having plausible deniability. 

 

Thus Wilhelm is a very poor example of a mage "allowed to live free".  Technically Wilhelm was an apostate (because he was acting and practicing magic in a way contrary to Chantry Law and was not allowed to be free of the circle).

 

Edit: Changed Malcom to Wilhelm

[Wittand25]

Read the FE's letter to Malcom.  Malcom was doing a lot of research that was against Chantry law and with the FE's full knowledge.  Basically Malcom was allowed to live as he did not just because of political connections but because he allowed the FE to do research and otherwise break Chantry Law while having plausible deniability. 

 

Thus Malcom is a very poor example of a mage "allowed to live free".  Technically Malcom was an apostate (because he was acting and practicing magic in a way contrary to Chantry Law and was not allowed to be free of the circle).

No. Wilhelm is a circle mage. Just as Uldred was a circle mage. Not following all the circle rules does not make one an apostate.

 

Wilhelm still has to answer to the First Enchanter and both the First Enchanter and the Knight-Commander of Fereldens cirlce could order him back any time.

[IanPolaris]

No. Wilhelm is a circle mage. Just as Uldred was a circle mage. Not following all the circle rules does not make one an apostate.

 

Wilhelm still has to answer to the First Enchanter and both the First Enchanter and the Knight-Commander of Fereldens cirlce could order him back any time.

 

Actually it does.  In fact that's the very definition of 'apostate', i.e. a mage that doesn't follow the chantry rules.  Grey Warden mages aren't apostates even though they don't follow Chantry Law because Chantry Law specifically denies Chantry oversight over Grey Warden Mages.  Any other mage either follows Chantry Law or is an apostate.  I am sure that Wilhelm didn't consider himself an apostate, but by breaking the Chantry rules and going behind the Chantry's back, he was in fact one...and the fact the FE know all about it cuts no ice (except to implicate the FE as well).

 

Basically, the fact that Wilhelm broke the rules is not evidence that the rules don't or didn't exist.

 

Edit:  Changed Malcom to Wilhelm

[Wittand25]

Actually it does.  In fact that's the very definition of 'apostate', i.e. a mage that doesn't follow the chantry rules.  Grey Warden mages aren't apostates even though they don't follow Chantry Law because Chantry Law specifically denies Chantry oversight over Grey Warden Mages.  Any other mage either follows Chantry Law or is an apostate.  I am sure that Wilhelm didn't consider himself an apostate, but by breaking the Chantry rules and going behind the Chantry's back, he was in fact one...and the fact the FE know all about it cuts no ice (except to implicate the FE as well).

 

Basically, the fact that Wilhelm broke the rules is not evidence that the rules don't or didn't exist.

 

Edit:  Changed Malcom to Wilhelm

He broke the rules regarding demon summoning, not the rules about living.

Breaking one rule, does not mean one breaks all the rules. His studies are illegal (or at least in a grey area since he has the approval of his superior) but his living conditions are not.

If the templars found out of the deamons, he would have lost the option to live with his family, but since they did not learn of it he was able to live in Honnleath with his family.

Ines several camping trip (I think they came up in dialog) show that even mages without political pull can leave the building for an extensive amount of time provided they report back.

 

That most mages choose not to  live outside the tower´s wall is a different story. Most of them have little to no live skills and chantry propaganda makes beeing a mage rather dangerous since they will likely be blamed everytime a cow drops dead and soon be on the receiving end of  mob.

[Daerog]

That would make Orsino an apostate... and many of the "Circle" mages as well... interesting thought. Although, in that case, one can be both an apostate and a Circle mage, since they are officially a part of the Circle and breaking rules does not mean one is no longer a Circle mage. If that was the case, then Anders was an apostate, since he kept trying to run off. Wilhelm is still an official Circle mage, skirting Chantry law ya, but still a registered mage that the Circle knew of (not everyone in the Circle, of course)

 

Still, I find Viv's view of the Circle to be more credible than Fiona's. Viv came from merchant parents, grew up in the Circle, went through it all from bottom to top, she has even seen life outside the Circle and has been involved with the Circle (not just her own Circle tower, the whole system) her whole life, unlike Fiona who just pops in and decides to stir things up after living with death seeking militant fanatics for years.

 

Seeing that the Circle is not a military must have really shocked her, which would explain her willing to go into indentured servitude for ten years to a foreign power... likely having to serve in a military that sends soldiers to Seheron every Autumn... so... why was she not planning to rebel against the Tevinters as well? A selfish madwoman she was.

 

Anders was possessed and even admitted he was going crazy and should die if you rival him. Orsino was eager for more power and knowledge with the blood magic experiments his psycho friend was doing. Uldred went full abomination. All other Circle dissenters are either crazy blood mages or apostates or selfish whiners in the case of the mages that the Inquisition can rescue from Hushed Whispers.

 

BioWare really needs the Libertarians to have a better representative to show their view. Not that it really matters at this point, mages have more freedom in all the endings and Templars were either given a clean slate or disbanded.

[IanPolaris]

He broke the rules regarding demon summoning, not the rules about living.

Breaking one rule, does not mean one breaks all the rules. His studies are illegal (or at least in a grey area since he has the approval of his superior) but his living conditions are not.

If the templars found out of the deamons, he would have lost the option to live with his family, but since they did not learn of it he was able to live in Honnleath with his family.

Ines several camping trip (I think they came up in dialog) show that even mages without political pull can leave the building for an extensive amount of time provided they report back.

 

That most mages choose not to  live outside the tower´s wall is a different story. Most of them have little to no live skills and chantry propaganda makes beeing a mage rather dangerous since they will likely be blamed everytime a cow drops dead and soon be on the receiving end of  mob.

 

Not true.  DG has explicitly stated that even married circle mages aren't allowed to keep their children, and so living conditions are very much against Chantry rules.

[IanPolaris]

Anders was not an apostate in DA2.  The moment that Anders became a Grey Warden (even if he later ran away), Apostasy is one charge that could never again (according to Chantry law anyway) be laid at his feet whatever his other crimes.

 

It's one more thank that makes it almost impossible (IMHO anyway) to reasonably side with Meredith at the end of DA2.  Killing the circle for something a mage that is legally not part of the circle was and is asinine.

[Daerog]

Which is why I always sided with the mages in DA2.

 

I was referring to the time when Anders lived in the Fereldan Circle, before Awakening. When the mages were allowed to go outside to walk around with Templars watching, Anders tended to try and run, but the Templars would keep hauling him back. Finn talks about Anders.

[Wittand25]

Not true.  DG has explicitly stated that even married circle mages aren't allowed to keep their children, and so living conditions are very much against Chantry rules.

Wilhelm´s wife was no mage, and Mathias showed no sign of magic so there was no reason to take him away.

 

By the way the very existence of married circle mages proves that mages live outside the cirle walls, since even romantic unions between two mages are discouraged (so no option to marry there) and relationships between mages and templars/priestesses are forbidden (so no wedding either).

And a mage would not spend enough time with anybody else to even get married if they were not allowed to leave the tower for periods of time.

[Ryriena]

All children are taken no matter if they showed any magical abilities.  

[IanPolaris]

Wilhelm´s wife was no mage, and Mathias showed no sign of magic so there was no reason to take him away.

 

 

As Reyiena(sp?) has already pointed out, this is completely irrelevant.  No circle mage is permitted to keep his or her children no matter what (mage or not).

[LobselVith8]

All children are taken no matter if they showed any magical abilities.  

 

True. Gaider said that, regardless of whether or not the Circle mage is married (even to a non-Circle mage), the child will be taken by the Chantry. He stated: "Yes, married or not the child of a mage is taken away by the Chantry." The fact that Wilhelm lived outside the Circle, in a village populated by Andrastian humans, and raised his children with his wife (despite this being prohibited by Chantry law) suggests that he had a royal boon for his service in helping liberate Ferelden from Orlesian occupation.

 

The only exception is someone who isn't under Chantry law, like a Grey Warden. Gaider said: "A mage who is not part of the Circle is not subject to the will of the Chantry. So, no."