*snip*
and I know I didn't get the impression in Origins that mages could just come and go, Templars seemed more like prison guards.
Ya, they were just being vigilant watchmen in the Tower before Uldred went crazy.
However, in Witch Hunt, that one Templar guy was nice, friendly, and showed concern for Finn.
So the doors weren't magically sealed and you weren't trying to steal a Phylactery to get someone's freedom. A person who apparently could have eventually just walked out after proving trustworthy?
If you can't leave when you want you're in custody.
You use Jowan as an example? He was the most incompetent mage there. He didn't know his ass from his elbow and was practicing blood magic. The doors were magically sealed because there were dangerous artifacts held there. If you have a child in your house, you lock up things that can pose a danger. Neither of those are very good examples.
So the doors weren't magically sealed and you weren't trying to steal a Phylactery to get someone's freedom. A person who apparently could have eventually just walked out after proving trustworthy?
Last I checked, Jowan was trying to steal his phylactery because he was a blood mage, and realized that Irving and Gregior knew he was a blood mage, and wanted to get out of the Circle(and not be caught after leaving) before he died...
Honestly, what I find most interesting about all of Anders' comments about his escaping Ferelden's Circle is that he never mentions asking Irving(or his possible successor) to leave the Circle and being denied...
So the doors weren't magically sealed and you weren't trying to steal a Phylactery to get someone's freedom. A person who apparently could have eventually just walked out after proving trustworthy?
If you can't leave when you want you're in custody.
Those are two way different thing. Added, the person who want to free themselves have yet to prove themselves.
Sorry, the fereldin circle was not a prison. It more of a school for learning with guards. The templars were far from being harsh. The fact we have Wynne,the mage woman in awakening and Shale's old master and his family that proves that notion wrong.
So the doors weren't magically sealed and you weren't trying to steal a Phylactery to get someone's freedom. A person who apparently could have eventually just walked out after proving trustworthy?
If you can't leave when you want you're in custody.
Jowan was not trustworthy.
He was scared (despite his teachers trying to encourage him, his fear was really his undoing, as such a thing makes dealing with demons riskier, which is scary, it is a vicious cycle) and was willing to resort to blood magic, these are not the traits of a trusted Circle mage.
Anders wasn't trustworthy either, since he kept trying to leave without permission. As he even said, he wants to be able to just fling fireballs at fools. Not something the Circle would want him to do among the commoners.
It was poorly done.
Not really. You have that hard of a time seeing stubborn people with power and authority act like crazed monkeys?
It seems to depend on a variety of things including the circle in question, your rank, who you related to or know and if you have a specialty on wither you get a out of circle card. Also it seems in some places that aren't Kirkwall they seem to turn a semi-blind eye to the mage collective as long as they don't cause trouble and aren't open about it.
Not really. You have that hard of a time seeing stubborn people with power and authority act like crazed monkeys?
I have a hard time believing that almost every single mage or Templar you meet would be a nutjob. Like it if you want. but it was poorly done.
If you can't leave as you please you're in custody, and the Templars are guards. This really isn't debatable. You can treat prisoners a well or as bad as you wish but if you're holding them they're prisoners.
Could your soon to be Warden mage just walk out, nope.
I have a hard time believing that almost every single mage or Templar you meet would be a nutjob. Like it if you want. but it was poorly done.
It was kind of odd.
Blood mages everywhere, a mage even being murdered for an apostate's sick experiments, stories of rape, solitary confinement, and harrowed mages being made Tranquil.
Oh, but send Bethany to the Circle and she does alright. She even works with the kids and is happier than if she was with the Wardens.
I have a hard time believing that almost every single mage or Templar you meet would be a nutjob. Like it if you want. but it was poorly done.
They weren't all nut jobs. The ones that were stood out the most. It was only at the most extremes did most of the mages turn to blood magic and not every templer in kirkwall was like Thask. As dai put it by Coles statement, the good templers were too scare to do or say any because they did not want to be punished for doing so. Samson's an example, he helped a mage and was thrown out to the street to become a begger to an addiction he never wanted. And if you do side with the templer you do find mages who don't fight back or use blood mage who surrenders to you.
So I ask again, do you have that hard of a time seeing stubborn people with power and authority act like crazed monkeys?
If you can't leave as you please you're in custody, and the Templars are guards. This really isn't debatable. You can treat prisoners a well or as bad as you wish but if you're holding them they're prisoners.
Could your soon to be Warden mage just walk out, nope.
Sorry, but that not how it works. It a reasonable condition. If we had people like mages in our world we would do the same thing. Added on the fact your forgetting those doors protect the mages as well.
Sorry, but that not how it works. It a reasonable condition. If we had people like mages in our world we would do the same thing. Added on the fact your forgetting those doors protect the mages as well.
And they would be prisoners. Like I said that's not debatable, whether you think it's justified or not doesn't change that fact. Also if we had people like mages in this world and we did the same thing it would end in the same result a civil war.
They weren't all nut jobs. The ones that were stood out the most. It was only at the most extremes did most of the mages turn to blood magic and not every templer in kirkwall was like Thask. As dai put it by Coles statement, the good templers were too scare to do or say any because they did not want to be punished for doing so. Samson's an example, he helped a mage and was thrown out to the street to become a begger to an addiction he never wanted. And if you do side with the templer you do find mages who don't fight back or use blood mage who surrenders to you.
So I ask again, do you have that hard of a time seeing stubborn people with power and authority act like crazed monkeys?
Just want to point out that Cole is after the fact, being post-DA2, that info was not available when the developers first released DA2. So, the only good templars we see are punished, killed, a newbie who needs rescuing from mages (ya, he shows real promise 
... still let him stay with the Templars in my canon...) or Cullen.
And they would be prisoners. Like I said that's not debatable, whether you think it's justified or not doesn't change that fact. Also if we had people like mages in this world and we did the same thing it would end in the same result a civil war.
Everything is debatable. It may not be reasonable, but as BSN shows, you can argue anything. Also, just saying it isn't debatable doesn't make it so.
So... prisoners... okay, using that label or not doesn't change how the Circle runs and how well off the mages in Circles can be compared to most people.
And they would be prisoners. Like I said that's not debatable, whether you think it's justified or not doesn't change that fact. Also if we had people like mages in this world and we did the same thing it would end in the same result a civil war.
Whether or not they were "prisoners" does come down to viewpoint and opinion and is very much debatable. You may not like what those who oppose you have to say, but it is certainly their right to feel Circles are needed, just as it's your right to believe they are not.
It was kind of odd.
Blood mages everywhere, a mage even being murdered for an apostate's sick experiments, stories of rape, solitary confinement, and harrowed mages being made Tranquil.
Oh, but send Bethany to the Circle and she does alright. She even works with the kids and is happier than if she was with the Wardens.
Well those templars have to have some survival skills.
They must've known if they did that to Bethany, Hawke would rip them apart and there would be no stopping it.
Just want to point out that Cole is after the fact, being post-DA2, that info was not available when the developers first released DA2. So, the only good templars we see are punished, killed, a newbie who needs rescuing from mages (ya, he shows real promise
Yes. If you were a regular templer who saw all that, would you stand up knowing you may end up like Samson?
Yes. If you were a regular templer who saw all that, would you stand up knowing you may end up like Samson?
Of course not, especially considering that one's fellow Templars are one's only form of support and security. Everyone was turning on the Templars, they had little to no friends in Kirkwall by the third act.
So, you have a point.
I just began my human female mage, I just got this convo with Josie.
I foun it interesting, I choose the 'happy options' the 'Circle wasn't that bad' etc
I also chose the option "went home from time to time' since Origins, I thought life was strictly the Circle, so it was a nice change to get that option lol
I actually never got the impression that as a mage you could just walk out of the Circle whenever you wanted. It looked like a prison to me and if the Circle wasn't as strict and you were good, you were maybe a prisoner with privileges.
You could it seems request to leave the Circle but you had to go through a process and get permission from the First Enchanter AND the Knight Commander. Also I assumed it was for short periods of times. So excluding all the special circumstances everyone has mentioned in the thread, a regular ol' mage couldn't just simply walk up to the First Enchanter and be like, "I'll be back next week, I'm going to visit my mom, k thanks, bye".
I don't think that's how even the most lenient Circle in Thedas works. I do believe Viv when she said all Circles were different but I don't think you would have a Mage rebellion if anybody could come in and out whenever they wanted. Also why was Anders trying to run away all the time?
I'll have to look through codexes and what not but now I'm curious.
The narrator in the magi origin calls the Circle a prison. That really should be enough to end the denials.
Circles are a prison. Each Circle is different, you can consider them as raging from low to maxium security Prisons. Or even half-way houses in the absolute best scenario, but mages are prisoners whether Vivienne wants to admit it or not.
I don't consider a good thing that only powerful mages (the useful ones) who suck up, or even sleep with, nobles are the only ones who can hope to live outside the circles. Vivienne should not be a not a role model, she must scare the **** out of non-mages judging from her introduction scene.
What about the mage who's strong-willed enough to pass the harrowing, but too weak in magic or not enough of a scholar to be useful to the higher-ups? No parole for them, they would make mages look too much like normal people.
If you need permission, you can't go in and out as you will.
The First Enchanter can't have a bunch of mages going out into the world unsupervised, that would be dangerous for the mages (or possibly for the commoners).
Just wanting to go out for a stroll is something a FE would deny. The commoners don't want a bunch of mages wandering about. Not caring what the commoners think or how nobles would feel about mages freely wandering about is what got the rebels in a very bad situation in DA:I.
"half-way houses in the absolute best scenario" I would disagree. House arrest in a mansion with security, free meals, and being surrounded by people who understand what it is like being a mage who are available for support is the best scenario.
The point is irrelevant, and highlights Vivienne's hypocrisy. Even if it were true that there was some process to grant a mage approval to be outside the Circle - which we see in DA:O e.g. in the village that we collect Shale, because a Circle mage was living there officially - the reality of the situation is that this is not like getting a passport. Most First Enchanters exist and exercise their power at the whim of the Knight Commander. Gregoire and Irving had a sort of friendship going, antagonistic, however antagonistic their relationship. Meredith neutered Orsino.
We have two examples of how First Enchanters interacted with the Knight Commanders assigned to their Circle in the games, that is not most First Enchanters.
The FE before Irving was able to plot with the Architect, bring the Architect into the Circle Tower, experiment with blight magic, and was obviously operating however he pleased. He was hoping to eventually take power by aiding Orlais in taking over Fereldan again.
Vivienne was a First Enchanter, and if that is how she views things, then she must have had little to no trouble with the KC assigned to her Circle.
Anyway, I do agree that Templars were overstepping their authority with some of the Circles, obviously, since the Circles are supposed to be run by the enchanters with the Templars just being a security force, keeping vigilance, and stepping in when necessary. That "necessary" part eventually being interpreted differently by different KCs... like Meredith...
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