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[LobselVith8]

The point is irrelevant, and highlights Vivienne's hypocrisy. Even if it were true that there was some process to grant a mage approval to be outside the Circle - which we see in DA:O e.g. in the village that we collect Shale, because a Circle mage was living there officially - the reality of the situation is that this is not like getting a passport. Most First Enchanters exist and exercise their power at the whim of the Knight Commander. Gregoire and Irving had a sort of friendship going, antagonistic, however antagonistic their relationship. Meredith neutered Orsino. 

 

Wilhelm having children would suggest that he wasn't living there as a part of the Circle, since Circle mages aren't allowed to keep and raise their children under Chantry law; it's possible that Wilhelm may have received a royal boon due to his efforts in the war, which would explain how he was able to have a family.

[In Exile]

Wilhelm having children would suggest that he wasn't living there as a part of the Circle, since Circle mages aren't allowed to keep and raise their children under Chantry law; it's possible that Wilhelm may have received a royal boon due to his efforts in the war, which would explain how he was able to have a family.

 

If we're going to get technical, then technical workarounds supposedly absolute rules is the heart and soul of English common law, which is clearly the equivalent law of Ferelden. But more importantly, it's not as if there some Mage Child Inspector ™ that goes around to every mage living off reservation to double check to see if they're living in a childless relationship. 

 

What explains how he could have a family is the simple fact that he got to be out there long enough and no one check-in on him. Just like how he got to keep and experiment on a golem. 

[LobselVith8]

If we're going to get technical, then technical workarounds supposedly absolute rules is the heart and soul of English common law, which is clearly the equivalent law of Ferelden. But more importantly, it's not as if there some Mage Child Inspector ™ that goes around to every mage living off reservation to double check to see if they're living in a childless relationship. 

 

What explains how he could have a family is the simple fact that he got to be out there long enough and no one check-in on him. Just like how he got to keep and experiment on a golem. 

 

Wilhelm lived in a village that was inhabited by other people, and Shale accompanied Wilhelm since the Orlesian occupation.

[AshenEndymion]

Wilhelm having children would suggest that he wasn't living there as a part of the Circle, since Circle mages aren't allowed to keep and raise their children under Chantry law; it's possible that Wilhelm may have received a royal boon due to his efforts in the war, which would explain how he was able to have a family.

 

This is an oversimplification.  Mages who have children in the Circles, aren't allowed to raise them(for the child's safety).  Wilhelm had a normal wife, and a normal child.  The Chantry isn't going to take a child from a mother who lives in a village if said child isn't a mage, said mother isn't a mage, and said mother wants to raise the child...

 

Wilhelm was allowed to leave the Circle because his FE allowed it, but by the notes in his basement he regularly checked in with the Circle.  It wasn't as if no one checked on him for 15 years(or however long it was until he died).

[IanPolaris]

This is an oversimplification.  Mages who have children in the Circles, aren't allowed to raise them(for the child's safety).  Wilhelm had a normal wife, and a normal child.  The Chantry isn't going to take a child from a mother who lives in a village if said child isn't a mage, said mother isn't a mage, and said mother wants to raise the child...

 

Wilhelm was allowed to leave the Circle because his FE allowed it, but by the notes in his basement he regularly checked in with the Circle.  It wasn't as if no one checked on him for 15 years(or however long it was until he died).

 

Actually Lob is right about this.  Grey Warden Mages and only Grey Warden Mages are allowed to have children (setting aside the difficulties of that with Grey Wardens) and otherwise operate outside of Chantry Law.  All other sanctioned mages whether they are physically inside a circle tower or not are still considered to be in the circle (i.e. part of a circle tower and a circle mage).  

 

Wilhelm was blatently operating outside of Chantry Law....not just in having a family but also with his studies of demonology.  He did so with the tacit knowledge of his First Enchanter, but if you read the First Enchanter's letter to Wilhelm, it's clear this was being done behind the Chantry's back....and the only reason he was allowed this much freedom was because of Wilhelm's strong political connections as part of the successful Fereldan revolt against Orlais.

[AshenEndymion]

Actually Lob is right about this.  Grey Warden Mages and only Grey Warden Mages are allowed to have children (setting aside the difficulties of that with Grey Wardens) and otherwise operate outside of Chantry Law.  All other sanctioned mages whether they are physically inside a circle tower or not are still considered to be in the circle (i.e. part of a circle tower and a circle mage).  

 

Debatable.  On the one hand, we have Wynne saying that she lost her child because it was born in the Circle, and that mages aren't allowed children, on the other hand we have Wilhelm with a child and a family, and the FE consent to both.

 

There is no codex entry anywhere that says mages are or aren't allowed to have children...  So the claim that the mage children must be taken under Chantry Law is rather dubious.

[Aramintai]

I don't think Viviennve represents your typical Circle mage. It seems that if a mage gets herself a patron among the nobles she can leave the Circle to work for them. That's what I've heard from a random cowardly mage npc in Val Royeax, that's what Vivienne's privilege is by being the mistress of Bastien and court enchanter.

Other times mages can leave the Circle by being conscripted into an army, like in that first book about Maric - there was a battlemage who commanded a golem for the army. Or take Fereldan Circle mages who were at Ostagar on king Cailan's bidding. Or when you conscript them to help during the Blight. This is all done with permission.

But there are also mages like Anders who was constantly trying to run away from the Circle, only to be caught and returned to it by templars. I'm not even mentioning Kirkwall, that was a mess. Also lots of stories suggest that templars and mages most of their lives live in the Circle, with templars constantly watching the mages. If the mages were all over the country it would be difficult for templars to keep a check on them. That's why they are all gathered in Circles, like sheep.

 

As for the Inquisitor mage, it seems that some leeway was allowed for him\her being a noble. There were dialogue options with Josephine that suggest that Trevelyan family bribed the templars for you to come visit home from time to time and/or templars being displeased with that. 

[IanPolaris]

Debatable.  On the one hand, we have Wynne saying that she lost her child because it was born in the Circle, and that mages aren't allowed children, on the other hand we have Wilhelm with a child and a family, and the FE consent to both.

 

There is no codex entry anywhere that says mages are or aren't allowed to have children...  So the claim that the mage children must be taken under Chantry Law is rather dubious.

It's not that debatable.  DG himself has flat out said that Circle Mages aren't allowed to keep their children.  Combine that with what Wynne said in game and that's good enough.  I note that Wilhelm was never sanctioned to do his research or have a family.....sure the First Enchanter knew about it but that doesn't mean it was sanctioned by the Chantry.  In fact the FE's letter says quite the opposite.

 

The point is that mages are allowed to have children and marry, but aren't permitted to keep their children.....unless they are Grey Warden Mages.  Grey Warden Mages (and this is also per DG) are the only mages allowed to legally operate outside Chantry Law (which includes keeping children, blood magic, etc).

[Daerog]

Okay, so Wilhelm was not allowed to raise his child... that doesn't mean the mother wasn't allowed to.

 

The mother was mundane, the child was mundane, the Chantry would not interfere there.

 

Ya, Wilhelm went against the Chantry rules... so do many Circle mages apparently, but outside of losing the child, Wynne doesn't mention any kind of punishment or reprimand.

 

Edit: Mages are also not allowed to learn how to fight with swords and such, which is shown in a codex. However, spirit blades seem to be okay... seems exceptions can be made.

[Ieldra]

......

 

Fereldin circle was no where near a prison. It's one of the better circles in Thedus.

The thing is, it was recognizeably built as a prison. You could basically close one door and keep everyone in. This may be an emergency measure, but it would affect how it feels to live there at any time, and that the local Knight-Commander can close the door at any time doesn't help.  

[Ieldra]

As for mages being allowed to live outside the Circles, everything I read and hear indicates that these cases were the exception rather than the rule. Vivienne's experience would be affected by her being a supporter of the status quo, so she and people of the same mindset would have an easier time getting permission than others. Also, of course if an influential person like a nobleman or -woman wants a mage's services on a permanent basis, it's more likely that some mage will eventually end up there. In this case, it's not "allowed to live outside the Circle" rather than "sent to serve a nobleman". Whether or not that's a privilege depends on many factors. 

[KaiserShep]

All Circles, at least the Circles outside of Tevinter, are essentially prisons with varying levels of security. It doesn't matter how dressed up they are; it's the fact that leaving without permission could end in death or some other dire fate that makes it such. I don't think Harry Potter would've been executed for truancy.

[Big I]

Okay, so Wilhelm was not allowed to raise his child... that doesn't mean the mother wasn't allowed to.

 

The mother was mundane, the child was mundane, the Chantry would not interfere there.

 

It's not about whether the child or mother has magic, it's about the family being used as emotional leverage by demons trying to possess the mage, e.g. Connor making a deal with Desire to save his father. I believe David Gaider confirmed this a long, long time ago. That's why mages aren't allowed to get married or have children. It's also total BS, because mages formed deep friendships and romantic relationships with each other all the time, and formed parental relationships with the apprentices, and that didn't make them more likely to be possessed.

 

As for Vivienne's quote it's either intentional BS or (what I think was the case) her own experiences giving her an erroneous view of how the Circle operates. The Ferelden, Starkhaven and Kirkwall Circles certainly did not operate on a "hey First Enchanter, can i live outside the Circle? Of course, no problem!" basis. It's why Anders kept trying to escape.

[Urzon]

The key part in all of this is that the mage in question needs the First Enchanter's permission. That permission is probably extremely hard to get for the average hallowed mage. Most of the Circle mages we see outside the Circle are usually either political savvy and can pull strings (Vivienne and the mage from Zevran's backstory), have the backing of a noble or lord of some kind (Wilhelm, Trevelyan, and various court enchanters), or there are large extenuating circumstances (Wynne, Finn, and Ines were all either Warden or Blight related).

So what Vivienne said was true, but it's in no way easy to do nor will anyone be able to do it.

[LobselVith8]

This is an oversimplification.  Mages who have children in the Circles, aren't allowed to raise them(for the child's safety).  Wilhelm had a normal wife, and a normal child.  The Chantry isn't going to take a child from a mother who lives in a village if said child isn't a mage, said mother isn't a mage, and said mother wants to raise the child...

 

Wilhelm was allowed to leave the Circle because his FE allowed it, but by the notes in his basement he regularly checked in with the Circle.  It wasn't as if no one checked on him for 15 years(or however long it was until he died).

 

Incorrect, as Gaider specified Circle mages, and even referenced that married Circle mages have their children taken away by the Chantry. He specifically said: "Yes, married or not the child of a mage is taken away by the Chantry."

 

The only exception, as Ian pointed out, are mages who are not part of the Circle (like Grey Wardens), as Gaider said (when I asked if a Grey Warden would be an exception to this rule): "A mage who is not part of the Circle is not subject to the will of the Chantry. So, no."

[Aaleel]

Whether or not they were "prisoners" does come down to viewpoint and opinion and is very much debatable. You may not like what those who oppose you have to say, but it is certainly their right to feel Circles are needed, just as it's your right to believe they are not.

 

It has nothing to do with if you think its justified or not.  If someone has you in their custody, and you're not allowed to leave their custody, may be killed trying to leave their custody if you wish you're a prisoner.  Some things are what they are, a phylactery is nothing but an ankle monitor.

 

Whether you think confinement is justified and whether it constitutes confinement are two completely different things.

[Jackums]

Vivienne is biased, hypocritical, and willfully ignorant. Her information very likely holds truth, but the fact that she has personal ambition invested in the Circle system means she's going to color it in a way that isn't so impartial. Also, her high position is more reason to be cautious of her claims than it is to put stock in them, as it's known that the higher ranked the mage, the more freedoms are allowed. It's easy for a mage of a distinguished position, in a relatively liberal Circle, who has connections amongst the nobility that grant her personal benefits, to talk down the plights of the common mages.

 

Anyway, as Ieldra said, such freedoms seem to be "the exception rather than the rule."

[Zetrial]

I haven't seen this dialog so I'll just have to go on your description.

 

I take great exception to her acting like she knows what all goes on in every Circle she is not a member of. Each Circle conducts things in their own way based on the relationship between its templar Knight-Commander and First Enchanter. Some Circles are more liberal than others. Some are more abusive than others. And each mage within all of those circles will have had a different experience from their fellow mages.

 

So, either she is just spouting total bullshit, or the devs made an error with her dialog. Either one is likely.

 

 

@Daerog - The OP's description of the dialog makes it sound like the mages can just go "I wanna move out of the house dad," and get permission. Those few cases you listed were an exception, not a common practice, and were allowed for specific purposes and magical research.

 

 

What are you talking about? Vivienne tells you that each Circle is different. She basically parrots the bolded word for word. 

 

 

I'm going to try and find a save before that so I can Fraps it.

 

You ask her how it is being confined and she says she has a large suite in the tower as well as an entire wing of an estate of a man she was a mistress of.  Then she says most mages lived outside the circle with the First Enchanters permission as if it's not really confinement the way you asked her.

 

I'll save you the trouble, I already had pics of the discussion. She aknowledges all circles were different and that is the core of the problem, were all circles like Montsimmard, it probably wouldn't be all too bad, but unfortunately they are not.

 

Spoiler

[Ryriena]

She is going by the core principles of the circles not what the Templars have done to the circles, which is basicly make them a prison. If you click on the guy in DA:O enough times in front of the door in the mage origin he flat out tells you that the only way to get out of here is jump out a window. Really, your full of it if you think Mages can leave with special permission. The dialogue was basicly done to make the chantry look better in the way they handle the mage's. They did the same with the three mages rule of the Dalish which goes against the last two games of how the dalish treat their mages.

[MisterJB]

Which doesn't really make sense when you consider that we have multiple codex entries about mages who fled the Circles because they didn't want to live in the Circle and be "a servant of the Chantry" or live "in servitude to the Chantry". Vivienne seems like a character who is intended to soften the image of the Chantry controlled Circles and demonize the concept of mage autonomy (which she specifically associates with "terrorism", so you can already see her bias), despite the fact that her claim doesn't really mesh well with the multiple accounts where mages risked their lives simply to live outside the Circle Tower.

As Vivienne says, permission from the First Enchanter is required.

Evidently, these mages who fled the Circle are the ones who really wanted to leave but were enable to earn permission.

[Lebanese Dude]

She is going by the core principles of the circles not what the Templars have done to the circles, which is basicly make them a prison. If you click on the guy in DA:O enough times in front of the door in the mage origin he flat out tells you that the only way to get out of here is jump out a window. Really, your full of it if you think Mages can leave with special permission. The dialogue was basicly done to make the chantry look better in the way they handle the mage's. They did the same with the three mages rule of the Dalish which goes against the last two games of how the dalish treat their mages.

You were a newly Harrowed mage.

Did you seriously expect to be able to leave the premises so soon?

What Vivienne said made sense. You had to earn your right to live outside the Circle, and anyone who wanted to escape clearly did not. Whether you could ever earn it is another question.

[Ryriena]

As Vivienne says, permission from the First Enchanter is required.
Evidently, these mages who fled the Circle are the ones who really wanted to leave but were enable to earn permission.

She is going by the old core principles of the circles not what the templars have turned it in too, which is a prison by the very nature of the word. And it all because you might do something...

[Ryriena]

You were a newly Harrowed mage.

Did you seriously expect to be able to leave the premises so soon?

It still give me a very chilling answer to how most mages could leave the tower. You are told that the only way is to jump out a tall tower through a window. That is basicly sucide. You must be a snarky one to think I expected to leave, when it tells you in the game I can not leave by the enchanter and Ducun by calling it a prision more or less.

I just clicked on him to see what would happen and when he said that to me eyes were verily wide by that peace of dialogue.

I was told this by a Templar guarding the door that led out to the small area outside. You know I could've just wanted to take walk outside to get some air but was told to jump out a window.

[MisterJB]

She is going by the old core principles of the circles not what the templars have turned it in too, which is a prison by the very nature of the word. And it all because you might do something...

 

I will point out lobs was talking about histories of mages fleeing Circles dating from centuries in the past. Meaning, that even if we were to accept the old core principles of the Circle have changed, mages have been fleeing from it ever since it was institutionalized.

Now, what reason do we have to believe that a First Enchanter herself would not be aware of a shift in a written rule of the Circle?

[Ryriena]

I will point out lobs was talking about histories of mages fleeing Circles dating from centuries in the past. Meaning, that even if we were to accept the old core principles of the Circle have changed, mages have been fleeing from it ever since it was institutionalized.
Now, what reason do we have to believe that a First Enchanter herself would not be aware of a shift in a written rule of the Circle?

Because she is not very bright and is going by her own experience in the cricle. She also doesn't live in the circle like Irving or Wayne whom are both pro circle just saying.