242 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryriena]

I will point out lobs was talking about histories of mages fleeing Circles dating from centuries in the past. Meaning, that even if we were to accept the old core principles of the Circle have changed, mages have been fleeing from it ever since it was institutionalized.
Now, what reason do we have to believe that a First Enchanter herself would not be aware of a shift in a written rule of the Circle?

It also known before hand that mage fleeing the circle didn't want their fredom hindered because some guy a thousand years ago created darkspawn which from lore could be false.

[MisterJB]

Because she is not very bright and is going by her own experience in the cricle. She also doesn't live in the circle like Irving or Wayne whom are both pro circle just saying.

 

"She is not very bright" is your answer. Really?

Also, the argument that her experience in the Circle affects her perceptions is fundamentally true but it doesn't work here. For one, she did not began in a position of authority, she worked her way there, and one doesn't need to be on the receiving ends of Templar animosity in order to study the laws of the Circle and read reports of, for instance, the frequency with which mages are allowed to live outside.

[MisterJB]

It also known before hand that mage fleeing the circle didn't want their fredom hindered because some guy a thousand years ago created darkspawn which from lore could be false.

 

Then it is a matter of mages being unwilling to accept hindrances on their freedom regardless of how reasonable or not rather than allowances never being granted.
 

[MisterJB]

As for mages being allowed to live outside the Circles, everything I read and hear indicates that these cases were the exception rather than the rule. Vivienne's experience would be affected by her being a supporter of the status quo, so she and people of the same mindset would have an easier time getting permission than others. Also, of course if an influential person like a nobleman or -woman wants a mage's services on a permanent basis, it's more likely that some mage will eventually end up there. In this case, it's not "allowed to live outside the Circle" rather than "sent to serve a nobleman". Whether or not that's a privilege depends on many factors. 

It is reasonable that in order for one to be allowed to be outside of the Circle in a temporary or permanent matter, one actually has to earn it by proving one is trustworthy.

Of course, this will lead to mages who support the status quo favoured by the ones granting these permits but it is never mages like Finn or Wynne causing problems, is it?

 

[Ryriena]

"She is not very bright" is your answer. Really?
Also, the argument that her experience in the Circle affects her perceptions is fundamentally true but it doesn't work here. For one, she did not began in a position of authority, she worked her way there, and one doesn't need to be on the receiving ends of Templar animosity in order to study the laws of the Circle and read reports of, for instance, the frequency with which mages are allowed to live outside.

She thinks wardens aren't needed anymore and forgets the blight that happened ten years before hand, I would call that not too bright. She also got passed up for Grand enchanter for Foina. After they are hunted by templars and killed

[DKJaigen]

I was talking to Vivienne and she was telling me about her suite in the Circle and her wing at the estate.  But she said that most mages were allowed to live outside the Circle with the First Enchanters permission, and that Kirkwall was an exception.  When exactly did this start because I know in Origins during the mage origin I didn't feel like I could leave?  Mages were escaping the Circle not walking out.

 

Has this ever been mentioned before?

 depends on the circle

[TK514]

She thinks wardens aren't needed anymore and forgets the blight that happened ten years before hand, I would call that not too bright. She also got passed up for Grand enchanter for Foina. After they are hunted by templars and killed

 

If this is your criteria for 'not very bright' then you must think every other mage is a brain damaged vegetable.

[Ryriena]

If this is your criteria for 'not very bright' then you must think every other mage is a brain damaged vegetable.

Nah I have more than that for my criteria I just brought that up as one reason.

[Aaleel]

Kids at school also can't just leave whenever they want and most people take their Harrowing in their late teens or early twenties - about the same time people in general "graduate" and are considered adults.

If your family wants to come get you from school they can. You're family can't just come pick you up from a circle, just like they can't just come take you out of jail. Why, because the circle took custody away from your family and confined you, against your family's permission In most cases. I might add.

[Ieldra]

It is reasonable that in order for one to be allowed to be outside of the Circle in a temporary or permanent matter, one actually has to earn it by proving one is trustworthy.

Of course, this will lead to mages who support the status quo favoured by the ones granting these permits but it is never mages like Finn or Wynne causing problems, is it?

Naturally, supporters of a police state will have fewer problems living in it, and thus be less likely to do anything to attract the attention of the authorities.

[Ryriena]

Kids at school also can't just leave whenever they want and most people take their Harrowing in their late teens or early twenties - about the same time people in general "graduate" and are considered adults.

A child can leave with a family member if you get sick at school or need to be picked up for doctors appointments, but in a circle a family member can not take you out of the circle. At the end of the day a child can leave school and go home to their family after gaining a education. While in the circle this doesn't happen and is forbidden by the Chantry.

The Chantry took custody of said child without the permission of the family in some cases, and forbids the family unless they where a noble from seeing the child in question. So I say they are two different things and should not be compared.

[line_genrou]

^ However it evolves in your own game is irrelevant. If she says "Kirkwall was an exception" then she is talking about how the Circles have been run in the past. And again, she doesn't know the inner workings of ALL Circles, just her own.

 

Since I haven't seen the dialog myself all I have to go on is the OP's description. "But she said that most mages were allowed to live outside the Circle with the First Enchanters permission, and that Kirkwall was an exception." This wording tells me that it is a common occurrence, which we know is not the case.

 

My only issue here is her acting like she knows everything.

She doesn't give a **** about the life of mages, just HER situation. If they are reacting badly, it's because most of the time things are not pleasant, and when reading various accounts, we can understand why they feel repressed and think it's unfair.

Honestly, the only real genuine account of how a mage's life should be is Morrigan's. 

 

Peope are just freaked out by mages because the chantry makes them afraid and the whole magisters/blight/maker abandoned us because of magic that has been reapeat over and over and brainwashed them.

 

 

 

Wynne: What you said before, Morrigan... about the Circle of Magi being a leash... do you truly believe at?

Morrigan: Only a fool would think otherwise.

Wynne: You would prefer a world where young mages were slain by the ignorant for their talent? Taught to fear their abilities?

Morrigan: That is what the Circle teaches. You fear your abilities, instead of reveling in them.

Wynne: Believing ourselves to be superior over other men is what led to the Imperium... and the darkspawn.

Morrigan: *Scoffs* I cannot believe you give credence to such drivel.

Wynne: Those who do not heed the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them.

Morrigan: Then you need look no further than the elves for an example of what occurs when you allow others to hold your leash.

[RazorrX]

I think the biggest issue here was that in DA:O They wanted to push things to show how bad things were everywhere - so you ended up seeing the Mages as being oppressed.  Then the Story of DA2 ended up making it even worse by pushing the mage-templar thing even further with rampant blood magic and Templar abuse everywhere.  

 

Wilhelm was allowed to leave the circle because he was the mage for Maric during the revolution.  That was a special case.  Wynne was allowed to leave with the Warden in a blight, she was later given her greater freedom because she was a known hero of the blight.  Those were two exceptions.  The Botanist was sent to study a plant that was growing in blighted lands, she had to report back, etc.

 

Look at Anders - He is recruited into the Wardens and the Templars STILL set a trap for him (corruption in the templars, but stll did happen).  This further pushed the idea that the circle is a prison.

 

Then you have Viv who was in the White Spire.  From what I understand the politics/Game influence everything in Orlais.  Thus if you have pull, you have freedoms.  For most in the spire it was a prison.  IF you were not in the game, did not have benefactors, you did NOT leave the spire.  Rhys, who was pretty mellow was not allowed to leave until Wynne came. 

 

Viv has a VERY skewed view of the circle.  SHE had a lot of freedom and power, she LOVES power and so she wants things to go back to the way it was. She is the only mage we meet from the circle system to say that it was awesome and how great and free mages were.  When you (a noble human) mention that you had visitation rights (which were because your family was very pious, very tied to the chantry and thus gained favors) it is not the same as if you were someone else, someone like say . . .Cole.  A young poor lad who was drug to the spire, thrown in a cell and left to die.  

 

So yeah, EVERY circle is different.  The circles OUTSIDE of Orlais have been shown to be MOSTLY prisons and the circles in Orlais are KIND of prisons if you do not have power/pull.  

 

Basically, VIv is an example of what was wrong with the circles (corruption, etc.) and they needed to be fixed.

[MisterJB]

Naturally, supporters of a police state will have fewer problems living in it, and thus be less likely to do anything to attract the attention of the authorities.

Which results in fewer dead people which also results in less violence against mages. That's a bad thing?

It is only reasonable those mages allowed a life outside of the Circle are not those likely to vanish and/or harm others.

[MisterJB]

 IF you were not in the game, did not have benefactors, you did NOT leave the spire.  Rhys, who was pretty mellow was not allowed to leave until Wynne came. 

If you define "leave" as "leave the Circle, spend a period of time outside of it and then return" which is what happened with Wynne, then Asunder tells us mages in the White Spire were allowed to visit Val Royeaux until Anders did the thing.

 

 

forbids the family unless they where a noble from seeing the child in question.

Arianni visits Feynriel and she is an elf. In Kirkwall.

 

It is more likely parents fail to visit their children because

a) They hate them after becoming mages

b )Traveling in the middle ages did not work like today. It's hard, if not impossible, to live in Denerim and regularly visit your kid at Kinloch Hold.

[Ryriena]

If you define "leave" as "leave the Circle, spend a period of time outside of it and then return" which is what happened with Wynne, then Asunder tells us mages in the White Spire were allowed to visit Val Royeaux until Anders did the thing.


Arianni visits Feynriel and she is an elf. In Kirkwall.

It is more likely parents fail to visit their children because
a) They hate them after becoming mages
b )Traveling in the middle ages did not work like today. It's hard, if not impossible, to live in Denerim and regularly visit your kid at Kinloch Hold.

If Feynriel is killed in the Fade, whether at his request or under Hawke's command, he becomes a Tranquil, now residing at The Gallows. She commits suicide by poisoning herself, justifying that she would rather die than see her son a Tranquil.
He is turned Traquil and then she commits sucide so no she doesn't visit him.

(After sending Feynriel to the Circle) "He may never forgive me for sending him there, but I'd rather him alive and furious than dead and buried."

Those don't say she is able to see him.

[Vilegrim]

Vivienne is biased, hypocritical, and willfully ignorant. Her information very likely holds truth, but the fact that she has personal ambition invested in the Circle system means she's going to color it in a way that isn't so impartial. Also, her high position is more reason to be cautious of her claims than it is to put stock in them, as it's known that the higher ranked the mage, the more freedoms are allowed. It's easy for a mage of a distinguished position, in a relatively liberal Circle, who has connections amongst the nobility that grant her personal benefits, to talk down the plights of the common mages.

 

Anyway, as Ieldra said, such freedoms seem to be "the exception rather than the rule."

 

 

Her information is more likely to be lies that suit her goals, meaning her in power no matter how many end up in chains to achieve that (I find her a more compelling potential villain than Corpsefish, just as power hungry, but slightly more sane)

[Melyanna]

I played and DM'd the Dragon Age pen and paper RPG, which is based on the canon lore of Dragon Age, and mages can indeed leave the circle - in fact, you can make a circle mage character and wander around no problem without becoming a Grey Warden.

You just need permission to do  by the First Enchanter and then you are set, though this will definitely affect the future of your character, since the Circle can give you missions and decide to have you back.
Of course, you can also play apostate, but it's a little risky, as you can imagine.

(The pen and paper RPG is set during the Blight, so at the same time as Origins, more or less).

 

EDIT: I hope the point of view of the RPG can maybe help.
I can look at the manuals and pull exact quotes if you want me to.

[Lebanese Dude]

Considering our only experiences regarding circles are the abomination-fest Kinloch Hold, the psychotic and Corypheus-insanity driven Kirkwall circle, the White Spire circle which happens to be located ten feet from the center of Andrastianism, and the accounts of a freedom fighter mage, I'm fairly certain none of us has a reliable source of how a relatively benign circle looks like before DAI.

In fact, Finn can leave the tower whenever he wants after receiving permission from the first enchanter, from a tower that had only just recovered from a rebellion, no matter what side you picked in DAO.

I'm pretty sure what Vivienne said is true.

[TK514]

I would love to see a parent try to take their child out of quarantine before said child had been cleared.

[MisterJB]

Those don't say she is able to see him.

I believe that, after your send Feynriel to the Circle in act 1, Arianni says in ambient dialogue that she went there to see him but he refused because he was angry.

However, I don't have  save  of DA2 right now to check so, you don't have to take my word for it.

 

One thing I absolutely am sure of is that Gamlen is the one who tells Bethany Leandra is dead and he doesn't have a sovereign to his name.

Hawke does, however, and you might argue it was because of Bethany's connection with him/her.

[Aaleel]

Your family's choice is limited from moving you from one school to another, and in reality most people are constrained in what school they can chose due to distance, price, and parents having a job.  For most people the choice is "go to the school closest to you."  Even home schooling isn't just "the parent does whatever they want."  If parents just "come take you from school" enough without a justifiable reason, the state can most definitely step in and stop it because education is compulsory.

No they can't. If I call the school and say I'm coming to get my daughter at 1:00 they can't stop me. They can ask why, but I don't have to tell them, nor can they demand a reason before I can leave with her. The child is in my custody not the school's. Mages are in the Chantry's custody not their family's. The most the school can do is say your child didn't attend enough days to move to the next grade level or graduate but the state cannot take your kid for missing too many days. If that were the case the state could take custody of any school drop out.

But all that is besides the point, the child is in my custody not the school's.

[Adanu]

Mages can leave the circle as long as they get permission from the First Enchanter or in some cases Warden Commander.

 

And there have been many mentions of Senior mages having houses outside of the circles or mage's given permission to go on expeditions for research.

 

You even see both Wynne and Finn being aloud to leave the circle.

 

 

Not every Circle is the same. that is mentioned many times through out the game, that mage's are given different rights and treated different ways in all the different circles. Kirkwall being the extreme exception to the rest of the circles.

 

There's a big difference between being given permission to travel, and being allowed to leave the Circle. Don't confuse the two