242 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

Which results in fewer dead people which also results in less violence against mages. That's a bad thing?

It is only reasonable those mages allowed a life outside of the Circle are not those likely to vanish and/or harm others.

Reasonable from a police state's point of view, perhaps:

(1) If they just vanish that should be nobody's business.

(2) As for violence against mages - imagine you, as a mageborn youth, get beaten up by some superstitious rednecks, or just by some thugs looking for an easy target, and then it's you they lock away rather than the perpetrators? That's like telling a rape victim it's her own fault. I can't see that ending well in the long run, and so it has proven again and again. Blaming the victim and adding insult to injury is bad recipe for peace.

(3) We don't lock away those we think likely to harm others. We lock them away once they've proven they will actually do so. Mages past their Harrowing should be judged by the same standards as others.

[Vilegrim]

(2) As for violence against mages - imagine you, as a mageborn youth, get beaten up by some superstitious rednecks, or just by some thugs looking for an easy target, and then it's you they lock away rather than the perpetrators? That's like telling a rape victim it's her own fault. I can't see that ending well in the long run, and so it has proven again and again. Blaming the victim and adding insult to injury is bad recipe for peace.

 

 

 

and people wonder why the voice promising justice  is so seductive for mages...

[MisterJB]

Reasonable from a police state's point of view, perhaps:

(1) If they just vanish that should be nobody's business.

(2) As for violence against mages - imagine you, as a mageborn youth, get beat up by some superstitious rednecks, or just by some thugs looking for an easy target, and then it's you they lock away rather than the perpetrators? That's like telling a rape victim it's her own fault. I can't see that ending well in the long run, and so it has proven again and again. Blaming the victim and adding insult to injury is bad recipe for peace.

(3) We don't lock away those we think likely to harm others. We lock them away once they've proven they will actually do so. Mages past their Harrowing should be judged by the same standards as others.

 

They should not for the fact remains that they are not the same as others. They have powers exceedingly, ridiculously dangerous and easy to abuse both by themselves and others, be they human or demonic.

This is not blaming anyone but rather accepting immutable facts. Mages are dangerous and the world is dangerous to mages. Pretending otherwise will not lead to peace and security to either side.

 

Allowing only select mages whose worth(as in, they're unlikely to blow stuff up) has been proven to interact with the outside world for a period of time, under supervision, is only reasonable. It leads to fewer corpses which, in the short run, leads to fewer resentment which results in fewer Templars having a bone to pick with mages.

 

Feels like we're debating the basics here.

 

[IanPolaris]

Kids at school also can't just leave whenever they want and most people take their Harrowing in their late teens or early twenties - about the same time people in general "graduate" and are considered adults. 

 

Not true.  If your students are legal adults (something I have had experience with as a College Professor), they can up and walk out of your class at any time.  Same applies in High School provided the student is 18 or more (most seniors).  It may be a dumb decision on their part, but they are allowed to do it.

 

Otherwise you are talking about minors who by definition have less rights (because they are not considered adults yet).  If you want to equate mages to minors then you make the case because you are denying an entire group full civil rights by virtue of what they are (and that does in fact make the circle tower a prison).

[Enrychan]

DAO doesn't count, in that case Duncan was excercising the right of conscription into the Grey Wardens in time of a suspected Blight. This doesn't mean that every mage can leave the Circle as soon as they pass their Harrowing (in fact, Gregoir didn't want to the let the mage!Warden go, even if they followed Irving's orders). Vivienne has many privileges because she became the mistress of Duke Bastien and he introduced her to the court. These privileges don't include all the mages.

[IanPolaris]

I played and DM'd the Dragon Age pen and paper RPG, which is based on the canon lore of Dragon Age, and mages can indeed leave the circle - in fact, you can make a circle mage character and wander around no problem without becoming a Grey Warden.

You just need permission to do  by the First Enchanter and then you are set, though this will definitely affect the future of your character, since the Circle can give you missions and decide to have you back.
Of course, you can also play apostate, but it's a little risky, as you can imagine.

(The pen and paper RPG is set during the Blight, so at the same time as Origins, more or less).

 

EDIT: I hope the point of view of the RPG can maybe help.
I can look at the manuals and pull exact quotes if you want me to.

The Green Ronin game is not indicative of the actual Dragon Age Lore.

[Navasha]

My impression is that Vivienne is just simply out of touch with reality.   From her privileged and posh lifestyle, she just assumes that every mage has had it as easy as herself.    Clearly, we know this is not the case at MOST circles.    Yes, the first enchanter of a circle could technically give leave to live outside the circle provided the Templars also approve.   My guess is that this only happens for very select individuals, and definitely not the majority of mages as Vivienne seems to imply.

[IanPolaris]

I believe that, after your send Feynriel to the Circle in act 1, Arianni says in ambient dialogue that she went there to see him but he refused because he was angry.

However, I don't have  save  of DA2 right now to check so, you don't have to take my word for it.

 

One thing I absolutely am sure of is that Gamlen is the one who tells Bethany Leandra is dead and he doesn't have a sovereign to his name.

Hawke does, however, and you might argue it was because of Bethany's connection with him/her.

 

By this time Hawke is a noble and has political connections that Meredith (yes even Meredith) is forced to respect.  Gamlen may not have a copper to his name but Hawke does, and denying Gamlen an opportunity to visit his niece would have had.....unfortunate....blowback against the Templars, so Gamlen was allowed to see her.  Essentially anyone connected with Hawke was automatically considered a special case, and was handled carefully so not to offend the force of nature that was Hawke.

[cronshaw]

I was talking to Vivienne and she was telling me about her suite in the Circle and her wing at the estate.  But she said that most mages were allowed to live outside the Circle with the First Enchanters permission, and that Kirkwall was an exception.  When exactly did this start because I know in Origins during the mage origin I didn't feel like I could leave?  Mages were escaping the Circle not walking out.

 

Has this ever been mentioned before?

She's explaining why she can live outside the circle

Interesting that she rips Fionna and yet didn't have any problems benefiting from her leniency and tolerance when it suited her needs

[Ieldra]

Feels like we're debating the basics here.

Yes, and I will not continue to do so, since it has been long established that we disagree about those basics beyond any possibility of reconciling our positions. You are looking at this through the lens of the ethics of community, while I am looking at it through the lens of the ethics of autonomy. A functional society needs a healthy balance of those, and we disagree about where that balance lies.

[Ryriena]

By this time Hawke is a noble and has political connections that Meredith (yes even Meredith) is forced to respect. Gamlen may not have a copper to his name but Hawke does, and denying Gamlen an opportunity to visit his niece would have had.....unfortunate....blowback against the Templars, so Gamlen was allowed to see her. Essentially anyone connected with Hawke was automatically considered a special case, and was handled carefully so not to offend the force of nature that was Hawke.

Maister Bj this is also my respone too you, it just that he prepared it better, than I did in my post.

[Elsariel]

So the doors weren't magically sealed and you weren't trying to steal a Phylactery to get someone's freedom. A person who apparently could have eventually just walked out after proving trustworthy?

If you can't leave when you want you're in custody.

If you're talking about Jowan, he was an apprentice who hadn't gone through the harrowing and had found out they intended to turn him tranquil. That's why he wanted to leave. Well, that and to be with that chantry girl he fell in love with.

[Adanu]

They should not for the fact remains that they are not the same as others. They have powers exceedingly, ridiculously dangerous and easy to abuse both by themselves and others, be they human or demonic.

This is not blaming anyone but rather accepting immutable facts. Mages are dangerous and the world is dangerous to mages. Pretending otherwise will not lead to peace and security to either side.

 

Allowing only select mages whose worth(as in, they're unlikely to blow stuff up) has been proven to interact with the outside world for a period of time, under supervision, is only reasonable. It leads to fewer corpses which, in the short run, leads to fewer resentment which results in fewer Templars having a bone to pick with mages.

 

Feels like we're debating the basics here.

Your interpretation is what caused the mage-templar war, and would start another one in time. I will fight to the last breath in my canon world against people like you.

[MisterJB]

Your interpretation is what caused the mage-templar war, and would start another one in time. I will fight to the last breath in my canon world against people like you.

There are no people like me. There is only me.

[cronshaw]

If you're talking about Jowan, he was an apprentice who hadn't gone through the harrowing and had found out they intended to turn him tranquil. That's why he wanted to leave. Well, that and to be with that chantry girl he fell in love with.

No the PC isn't allowed to leave either

and the first thing you do is pass your harrowing

[Ryriena]

If you're talking about Jowan, he was an apprentice who hadn't gone through the harrowing and had found out they intended to turn him tranquil. That's why he wanted to leave. Well, that and to be with that chantry girl he fell in love with.

Yeah for the purpose of saying that someone saw him doing blood magic. In fact, he does blood magic once I said he wasn't a blood mage and wanted to slap him and shake him a bit.

But that whole quest had the stupid ball in place for all the charcters to get too the next plot point. Which was Ducaun conscripting you in the service of the Grey Wardens, which I think was the plan of the first enchanter, as well by the way he acted in quest chain.


However, that my other problem with this system since all you need is the word of someone that they saw him use blood magic to get him turned in to a tranquil. How do we know if that person is telling the turth? They set up a person to turn to blood magic the moment they deem the person as weak minded or a poor exmaple of a mage.


Back on topic yeah her views are based on her own experience and being the mistress of a noble can have benefits to exploit.

[Amirit]

I was talking to Vivienne and she was telling me about her suite in the Circle and her wing at the estate.  But she said that most mages were allowed to live outside the Circle with the First Enchanters permission, and that Kirkwall was an exception.  When exactly did this start because I know in Origins during the mage origin I didn't feel like I could leave?  Mages were escaping the Circle not walking out.

 

Has this ever been mentioned before?

 

It started the same day when dalish invented "3 mage rule" in their clans Hence, in the middle of DAI plot writing. Just another "soft" retcon (something without written contradiction but against the common understanding and knowledge).

[MisterJB]

Yes, and I will not continue to do so, since it has been long established that we disagree about those basics beyond any possibility of reconciling our positions. You are looking at this through the lens of the ethics of community, while I am looking at it through the lens of the ethics of autonomy. A functional society needs a healthy balance of those, and we disagree about where that balance lies.

Fair enough. Still, it is a pity. It feels like nowadays, the only ones willing to argue in length are those who will frame everything in morality and then accuse others of evildoing if they fall outside of the imposed boundaries.

[Ryriena]

Fair enough. Still, it is a pity. It feels like nowadays, the only ones willing to argue in length are those who will frame everything in morality and then accuse others of evildoing if they fall outside of the imposed boundaries.

I try to avoid that if possible for me since that is the stupid way to debate.

[Aaleel]

If you're talking about Jowan, he was an apprentice who hadn't gone through the harrowing and had found out they intended to turn him tranquil. That's why he wanted to leave. Well, that and to be with that chantry girl he fell in love with.

 

I was only using the Jowan example because people were saying that the mages aren't imprisoned.  You were definitely imprisoned in the mage origin on DA:O.  If people want to debate whether or not imprisonment in warranted then fine.  But people were actually trying to say that the mages aren't prisoners, even though they're not allowed to leave if they want.

[Aaleel]

It started the same day when dalish invented "3 mage rule" in their clans Hence, in the middle of DAI plot writing. Just another "soft" retcon (something without written contradiction but against the common understanding and knowledge).

 

Ok I feel better now.  I thought I had just missed the 3 mage rule thing the first time I heard it, but apparently not.

[Ryriena]

Ok I feel better now. I thought I had just missed the 3 mage rule thing the first time I heard it, but apparently not.

Yeah I was confused with the Dalish 3 mage rule and the allowing Mages to leave too point. Then I realized it never happened in the other two games so it's a new thing so soft reatacon to make the chantry look better.

[Aaleel]

Kids can't legally drop out of school until a certain age.  A 7 year old can't just decide to drop out and his parents can't just decide he doesn't need more school. Seriously, is compulsory education not a thing where you live?  The police can actually physically pick up a kid that can't present a valid reason why he's not in school and cart him back there.  Parents who don't make their kids go to school can be held legally responsible for it.  For a young enough child that a parent failed/refused to enroll in school, the government can either force the parent to enroll them or take the kid to be enrolled.  

 

I fully admit that the Circle isn't precisely like a school, but your earlier definition of "not being able to go wherever you want/whenever you want=prison" would also by definition have to include modern schools. 

 

The state can't take my kid for missing too much school.  Like I said if this were the case, school drop outs would be taken from their parents left and right.  Moreso, if your kid is causing too much trouble, getting suspended a lot or something like that the school will kick your kid out.  Even then the state won;t come and take your kid if you don't put them in another school.

 

As far as what constitutes prison.  If you wake up one day all the windows are barred, all the doors are locked.  Then some person says we took you from your parents because you were deemed to have a trait that makes you dangerous, you cannot leave here.  Are you imprisoned in your house, absolutely.  '

 

You could be allowed to still play video games, surf the net, talk on the phone, and you could have a tutor.  Doesn't change the fact that you're a prisoner in your own home.  If the guy tells you he'll kill you if you try to escape or that you have a GPS tracker implanted in you so they can track you down and bring you back should you try and achieve freedom or not come back when allowed to step outside, you're a prisoner.  You're in the custody of whoever is holding you, not your parents anymore.