242 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryriena]

Yea, okay, sure: http://www.firstcoas...sweep/17681809/

I seriously doubt the parent spending a year in jail still is keeping their kid.

Or this quote:

"Those reports trigger an investigation by the Kansas Department for Children and Families, formerly known as Social and Rehabilitation Services. In most cases, according to the department, truancy and other forms of "non-abuse or neglect," families are referred for family preservation services or, in more serious cases, placement of the child in foster care."

From here: http://www2.ljworld....rents-surprise/

That does not include those that miss much school dude since their could be a reason that child was pulled out of school by parnets or garudians.

[Aaleel]

Yea, okay, sure: http://www.firstcoas...sweep/17681809/

 

I seriously doubt the parent spending a year in jail still is keeping their kid. 

 

Or this quote:

 

"Those reports trigger an investigation by the Kansas Department for Children and Families, formerly known as Social and Rehabilitation Services. In most cases, according to the department, truancy and other forms of "non-abuse or neglect," families are referred for family preservation services or, in more serious cases, placement of the child in foster care." 

 

From here: http://www2.ljworld....rents-surprise/

 

These parent's were fined they still have their kids, I didn't read anything about a parent losing a child, when they serve their 60 days or pay their fine they still ave their kids.  They're trying to force them to send their kids to school, but they didn't take the kids away.  The other story says other forms of non-abuse neglect, which could be something more than missing school.  

[IanPolaris]

Actually, most mages *are* minors at the point when they are unequivocally restricted to the tower.  Most pass their Harrowing at about the same time when kids "graduate" and it's only post Harrowing mages which are permitted to leave the tower. 

 

Which makes the mage circles a prison.  Just as prisoners don't have the right to come and go as they please, neither do mages.

 

Edit PS:  I note that the DAO intro (for the mage PC) outright calls the circle tower a prison.

[IanPolaris]

Eh? Obviously there's a difference between excused and unexcused absences.  But it is false that the state can't force you to send your kid to school. 

 

Anyway, this is getting tangential and weird anyway.  My original point is and remains that there are perfectly legitimate examples of non-prisons in RL that force people to be somewhere and don't let them leave even if they want to. 

 

It's a bad comparison because once you are of legal age you can not be forced to go to school.  That is quite different from mage circles where mages are quite clearly of legal age and held legally responsible for their actions but still aren't permitted to come and go as they please.

[Elsariel]

No the PC isn't allowed to leave either
and the first thing you do is pass your harrowing

I don't think it would have made sense to allow a newly harrowed mage to simply leave the day after their harrowing.

Technically, I agree that the circle is similar to a prison, especially for the apprentices, but it's not always the case.

[Ryriena]

The state can not force my children to go into a school, that as a parent don't want them in said school and can not take custody of said child away from me. Your point is mute really in dragon age your child becomes property of Chantry once he or she has been found with magical abilities. In the real world the child is not taken from said parents if they go to a school that the parnets chose and not what the goverment has in place unless your in North Korea or some other dictorship.

[TK514]

If only there were some situation aside from prison in which a person who had a condition that made them potentially dangerous to the general public was kept segregated, by force if necessary, until such time as they were determined to not be a threat...

[Aaleel]

But we're off track with this whole kid thing.

 

Hardly any of the mages I met in the mage origin in DA:O looked like children but they were all in the Circle against their will.  Your Warden, Jowan, his fiancee, honestly I can even think of any mage other then the kid practicing in the library that looked like a minor.  Even though kids taken from their parents from no reason are just as much prisoners.

 

If you're locked in, can only leave when they allow and you must come back when they say, you're a prisoner.  Just because they let you out on work release every so often doesn't change the fact that you're a prisoner.  

[Kieran G.]

There's a big difference between being given permission to travel, and being allowed to leave the Circle. Don't confuse the two

And when did i say Mage's are allowed to leave the circle freely? i wasn't starting a post about freedom, i was stating what has been shown and stated in the games and extended universe. So i am not confusing anything.

 

Rivainy circle mage's are allowed to leave their circles to be with their family. the Ferelden Circle will allow unconscripted Mage's go with Grey Wardens. Orlais Circle will allow High Ranking mage's have responsibilities and living quarters outside of circles. Tevinter Circles let their mage's leave as they choose.

 

Not every Circle is the same. And Vivenne even gives a good point that thinking all mages are treated the same in every circle is what put fuel on the fire. 

 

so next time make sure to look if i am posting a opinionated or fact comment, before talking to me about confusion.

Wynne was allowed to aid a Grey Warden during a time of Blight, and Asunder explicitly reads that she has freedoms that no other Circle mage has, which is why many Circle mages who opposed her support for the Chantry controlled Circles criticized her. If you're talking about Ines, she was studying a plant that was rumored to grow in Blighted soil after the Fifth Blight devastated parts of Ferelden.

Like i said, With permission from the First Enchanter or Knight-Commander mages can leave the circle.

 

When did i say Most mage's can leave the circle? what i said was "Not every Circle is the same. that is mentioned many times through out the game, that mage's are given different rights and treated different ways in all the different circles. Kirkwall being the extreme exception to the rest of the circles." and i never stated Kirkwall was the only bad circle. i was quoting the game, again look at what i said. Mage's are given different rights and treated different ways in all the different circles. 

 

this isn't an opinionated post, this is what the game has given us as examples. I was merely stating things we have seen in this game and universe of mage's being allowed, or given permission, to leave a circle.

[TK514]

Well, there's certainly mental institutions if that's what you are implying.  And some rehab centers.  

 

Although the idea of Mages as mental patients is an amusing one, that is not what I was implying.

[IanPolaris]

Well, there's certainly mental institutions if that's what you are implying.  And some rehab centers.  

Not any more.  That ended (at least in the US) during the 1980s and 1990s.  Unless you are sentenced to psychiatric care (usually as part of a trial after you've been found guilty) or you are a minor (child or someone that's been declared incompetent...again usually only after you had your day in court), you can not be held in a hospital (including a mental hospital) against your will.  There are RARE cases that involve a real and present public danger (Ebola) but even those cases are monitered closely.

 

It doesn't matter if you just had a heart attack, and have two broken legs, if you are mentally capable (i.e. an adult capable of making decisions), you have the absolute right to check yourself out of any medical facility including a mental one.

[Aaleel]

Although the idea of Mages as mental patients is an amusing one, that is not what I was implying.

 

I figure you're talking about quarantine.  If so, magic is not an illness that can be cured, so when would you not be a threat?

[IanPolaris]

Except you are leaving out the Harrowing.  The Harrowing is when a mage ceases to be an overt "minor."  Apprentice mages are essentially minors legally (and most of them are legitimately minors as the Harrowing happens right around the standard "coming of age" time anyway).

 

We can debate whether "Harrowed/adult" mages are imprisoned all day, but my original point is that the pre-Harrowing DAO Warden and/or Jowan being locked up doesn't necessarily mean anything more than high school kids being forced to stay in high school.  You *cannot* use this moment as representative of mage experience generally anymore than 11th grade can used as representation of adulthood.  

 

Yes it does.  Once you are Harrowed, you are an ADULT mage.  Yet you still can't come and go as you please.  That makes the circle a prison (and yes DAO outright calls it that).  That's not the same in high school.  Once you are of legal age (or emancipated), you can not be forced to attend school (including High School).

[IanPolaris]

I figure you're talking about quarantine.  If so, magic is not an illness that can be cured, so when would you not be a threat?

Quarantine doesn't apply.  Quarantine only applies if the condition can be easily passed/transmitted to others, and that condition is a real and present danger to the population.  Obviously magical ability can't be passed on, and we also know that possession doesn't happen unless the mage consents which destroys any comparison to quarantine.

[IanPolaris]

Eh?  I wasn't refuting any of that. I was specifically referring to institutions "in which a person who had a condition that made them potentially dangerous to the general public was kept segregated, by force if necessary, until such time as they were determined to not be a threat.." which is *precisely* what happens when you have Ebola or are sentenced to psychiatric care or are deemed mentally incapable. 

 

Doesn't apply.  Mages only become abominations when the mage CONSENTS to possession.  If you think a mage is going to do that, then show that this particular mage can't be trusted (ie have a trial).  Otherwise, you are imprisoning people w/o cause.

[IanPolaris]

Eh?  I wasn't refuting any of that. I was specifically referring to institutions "in which a person who had a condition that made them potentially dangerous to the general public was kept segregated, by force if necessary, until such time as they were determined to not be a threat.." which is *precisely* what happens when you have Ebola or are sentenced to psychiatric care or are deemed mentally incapable. 

 

To continue my thought above, in such cases your rights are restricted by due process.  Mages don't get due process.

[TK514]

I figure you're talking about quarantine.  If so, magic is not an illness that can be cured, so when would you not be a threat?

 

That sounds like the sort of determination that a First Enchanter would have to make.  While you are correct that magic can not be cured (Tranquility aside), the condition can be managed so as to make the risk acceptable.

 

Granted, the only real time prior to DA:I that we've seen it, the mage was a complete ass that terrorized his town with his giant stone killing machine.  So there might need to be some qualifiers other than 'helped the king'.

[Aaleel]

Quarantine doesn't apply.  Quarantine only applies if the condition can be easily passed/transmitted to others, and that condition is a real and present danger to the population.  Obviously magical ability can't be passed on, and we also know that possession doesn't happen unless the mage consents which destroys any comparison to quarantine.

 

I wasn't comparing the two, I was just saying that I thought that was what he was referring to.