242 réponses à ce sujet

[TK514]

Quarantine doesn't apply.  Quarantine only applies if the condition can be easily passed/transmitted to others, and that condition is a real and present danger to the population.  Obviously magical ability can't be passed on, and we also know that possession doesn't happen unless the mage consents which destroys any comparison to quarantine.

 

False statement.  DA2 shows explicitly that possession can be forced.  If you're referring to Flemeth, all we can take from her statement is the she can't take over an unwilling host.

[Giantdeathrobot]

Even if we were to all agree the Mages are prisoners (which we evidently don't), this isn't the end of the issue at all.

 

A rich CEO in a white collar prison is just as much of a prisoner as a political dissident who is worked to death in a North Korean forced labor camp. But their living conditions are completely different.

 

That's kinda the point that is being made here, no? While there were Circles that cracked down on Mages hard, such as the one in Kirkwall, it wasn't a rule either. We see the Ferelden circle and it's not particularily repressive (hell given what happens, some might say it wasn't enough). We meet, over the course of the games, several mages who thought the Circles weren't so bad, and from Origins we know that mages can be allowed to leave the Circle for periods of time if the First Enchanter deems it acceptable. So while they might be prisoner, they weren't misteated anywhere near as much as the Kirkwall mages were.

 

And really, between being in a Circle (where you are housed, fed, educated and can practice your talents, somewhat rare in a medieval setting, albeit obviously with strings attached) and being a random powerless citizen or peasant at the mercy of the first monster or demon or army who crosses your path, I think I'd choose being in a Circle. Sure, player characters don't have to worry about those things since they are by necessity demigods, but if you aren't an army-destroying force of nature, life in Thedas must suck hard.

[Ryriena]

I rather have my freedom than being forced into prison were I might be raped for that mater made tranquil for just a small mistake or show distain for the knight commander.

[IanPolaris]

False statement.  DA2 shows explicitly that possession can be forced.  If you're referring to Flemeth, all we can take from her statement is the she can't take over an unwilling host.

Actually it's part of the lore that possession can NOT be forced.  The closest we find is the circle tower in DAO but even then the mage has to agree......and only after long applications of torture and bloodmagic.

 

I also point out that DA2 doesn't follow the lore very well possibly because the entirety of Kirkwall is a Hellmouth.  You can't summon abominations but that happens all the time in DA2.  That means that your DA2 argument is invalid.

[IanPolaris]

Okay, good luck asking for that in a medieval society.  The state can't grant mages due process to civil rights they legally don't have (and that pretty much nobody has in DA) and the concept of natural rights isn't even something on the medieval radar.  

The concept of Natural Rights is very much part of THEDAS however.  I refer to the convo the Warden-Commander has with Wynne and Anders in DA;A.

[IanPolaris]

It's also that there are clearly established cases in RL where people's rights are suppressed in the face of a greater issue that *aren't* prisons. Not every instance of restriction of rights = prison, or if it does than "prison" isn't an inherently negative word because we have numerous legitimate examples of instances where suppressing people's rights for some bigger issues is permissible.  School was just one example I was using.  

 

If you are sentenced to psychiatric care, that mental hospital is considered a prison not just morally but legally.  Your rights have been restricted after due process (and this is the key point).  Do you know what part of kidnapping consists of?  Unlawful Imprisonment.  Anytime a person says, "I want to go" and you prevent them, you are imprisoning them.   Setting asides justications, this makes circle towers prisons....and DAO explicitly states this.

[TK514]

Actually it's part of the lore that possession can NOT be forced.  The closest we find is the circle tower in DAO but even then the mage has to agree......and only after long applications of torture and bloodmagic.

 

I also point out that DA2 doesn't follow the lore very well possibly because the entirety of Kirkwall is a Hellmouth.  You can't summon abominations but that happens all the time in DA2.  That means that your DA2 argument is invalid.

 

I'm not talking about summoning abominations.  I'm talking about an entire story arc that involves forcing demons into people.  You don't get to ignore canon events just because they contradict your argument.

[IanPolaris]

Considering I don't believe in natural rights, this isn't a particularly compelling argument to me. 

 

Don't care what you think.  The game and societies in Thedas clearly DO care and DO consider Natural Rights to be a compelling argument (just to varying degrees).

[Aaleel]

Even if we were to all agree the Mages are prisoners (which we evidently don't), this isn't the end of the issue at all.

 

A rich CEO in a white collar prison is just as much of a prisoner as a political dissident who is worked to death in a North Korean forced labor camp. But their living conditions are completely different.

 

That's kinda the point that is being made here, no? While there were Circles that cracked down on Mages hard, such as the one in Kirkwall, it wasn't a rule either. We see the Ferelden circle and it's not particularily repressive (hell given what happens, some might say it wasn't enough). We meet, over the course of the games, several mages who thought the Circles weren't so bad, and from Origins we know that mages can be allowed to leave the Circle for periods of time if the First Enchanter deems it acceptable. So while they might be prisoner, they weren't misteated anywhere near as much as the Kirkwall mages were.

 

And really, between being in a Circle (where you are housed, fed, educated and can practice your talents, somewhat rare in a medieval setting, albeit obviously with strings attached) and being a random powerless citizen or peasant at the mercy of the first monster or demon or army who crosses your path, I think I'd choose being in a Circle. Sure, player characters don't have to worry about those things since they are by necessity demigods, but if you aren't an army-destroying force of nature, life in Thedas must suck hard.

 

Yeah, they're both prisoners who lost their freedom.  No one said all prisoners were mistreated.  Plenty of people in prison work out, play games, even take college classes.  But it doesn't change the fact that you're a prisoner without personal freedom, and in this case its through nothing you did wrong but be born a certain way.  People who have actually committed crimes can go to jail serve time and be released, but someone who has committed no crime is imprisoned indefinitely.

 

It's basically no better than internment camps during the war, you're jailed because you may do something.

 

And if the imprisoned side has the numbers its always going to end in the same way, rebellion, because people want their freedom, especially if they haven't done anything to warrant having it taken away.

[IanPolaris]

I'm not talking about summoning abominations.  I'm talking about an entire story arc that involves forcing demons into people.  You don't get to ignore canon events just because they contradict your argument.

 

You can't force demons into people.  See Keeran...he refused and apparently according to Tarone (the insane mage doing this, some do no matter what, i.e. not everyone is suitable).  What you can do is torture and wear down a person's will until they get to the point where they'll agree to anything including demon possession....but that is STILL consent and it STILL backs what I said.

 

You can't become possessed without your consent....and trying to force that consent involves a long, difficult, and usually painful process (both in DA2 and DAO).

[Giantdeathrobot]

Yeah, they're both prisoners who lost their freedom.  No one said all prisoners were mistreated.  Plenty of people in prison work out, play games, even take college classes.  But it doesn't change the fact that you're a prisoner without personal freedom, and in this case its through nothing you did wrong but be born a certain way.  People who have actually committed crimes can go to jail serve time and be released, but someone who has committed no crime is imprisoned indefinitely.

 

It's basically no better than internment camps during the war, you're jailed because you may do something.

 

And if the imprisoned side has the numbers its always going to end in the same way, rebellion, because people want their freedom, especially if they haven't done anything to warrant having it taken away.

 

This is medieval setting. No one is free to do what they want save the upper startes of society. The peasant works his fields or stares. The Grey Warden kills Darkspawn until they die. The merchant had better make good business if s/he wants food on the table. The soldier fights for his lord or his hanged for desertion. To say nothing of what happens of City elves, Dwarves (especially Casteless, but any dwarf can't leave Orzammar without being cast out)) or followers of the Qun. I really don't see why mages should be reserved a special spot here, especially since they actually can leave their Circles at times so long as the Knight-Commander isn't a fascist madwomen.

 

I feel like some people are applying decidedly modern concepts (such as natural rights and due process) to a world that doesn't care about them at all. 

[IanPolaris]

The game sure.  The societies in Thedas haven't found it compelling enough to refrain from putting mages in towers for 1000 years.  Most peasants in Thedas have no organized sense of what this means.  Mages are mostly just talking in terms of what they *want.*  I don't think the philosophical concept of natural rights has got much traction in Thedas.  

Not all societies in Thedas, only the Adrastian ones and only after the Chantry imposed it (and even then it was resisted in places like Rivvain).  For that matter Andraste herself didn't want such a system.

[Aaleel]

This is medieval setting. No one is free to do what they want save the upper startes of society. The peasant works his fields or stares. The Grey Warden kills Darkspawn until they die. The merchant had better make good business if s/he wants food on the table. The soldier fights for his lord or his hanged for desertion. To say nothing of what happens of City elves, Dwarves (especially Casteless, but any dwarf can't leave Orzammar without being cast out)) or followers of the Qun. I really don't see why mages should be reserved a special spot here, especially since they actually can leave their Circles at times so long as the Knight-Commander isn't a fascist madwomen.

 

I feel like some people are applying decidedly modern concepts (such as natural rights and due process) to a world that doesn't care about them at all. 

 

What is decidedly modern about wanting freedom?  That's as old as Moses freeing the slaves, if someone takes it you want it back, and ultimately if given the chance they'll fight for it, which is exactly what happened in Dragon Age.

 

You don't think city elves want to be free, or would fight for their freedom if they thought they had a chance to win and escape?  Qunari can become Tal-Vashoth, etc.

 

I really don't see how this is a modern concept.

[IanPolaris]

This is medieval setting. No one is free to do what they want save the upper startes of society. The peasant works his fields or stares. The Grey Warden kills Darkspawn until they die. The merchant had better make good business if s/he wants food on the table. The soldier fights for his lord or his hanged for desertion. To say nothing of what happens of City elves, Dwarves (especially Casteless, but any dwarf can't leave Orzammar without being cast out)) or followers of the Qun. I really don't see why mages should be reserved a special spot here, especially since they actually can leave their Circles at times so long as the Knight-Commander isn't a fascist madwomen.

 

I feel like some people are applying decidedly modern concepts (such as natural rights and due process) to a world that doesn't care about them at all. 

 

The game itself does so applying modern moral concepts is entirely fair.  If the game itself refers to the halocaust, then it's entirely fair to refer to such moral concepts when discussing the game.  THEDAS is a fantasy world, not a medaeval one with many modern social concept.

[IanPolaris]

The game sure.  The societies in Thedas haven't found it compelling enough to refrain from putting mages in towers for 1000 years.  Most peasants in Thedas have no organized sense of what this means.  Mages are mostly just talking in terms of what they *want.*  I don't think the philosophical concept of natural rights has got much traction in Thedas.  

 

Divine Justinia would disagree with you as would Lelianna and even Cassandra (to a lesser degree).  Natural Rights were paramount to all three and all thought the Chantry had lost it's way in this regard and many others.

[errantknight]

^ However it evolves in your own game is irrelevant. If she says "Kirkwall was an exception" then she is talking about how the Circles have been run in the past. And again, she doesn't know the inner workings of ALL Circles, just her own.

 

Since I haven't seen the dialog myself all I have to go on is the OP's description. "But she said that most mages were allowed to live outside the Circle with the First Enchanters permission, and that Kirkwall was an exception." This wording tells me that it is a common occurrence, which we know is not the case.

 

My only issue here is her acting like she knows everything.

This surprises you? Vivienne always acts like she knows everything. 

 

Right from the beginning in this franchise we've seen characters saying things that they believe to be true which are open to a different interpretation by others, rumors that are patently untrue, and differences of opionin. Just because she says it doesn't mean it's true, only that she believes it to be true.

[KBomb]

Well, this went to ridiculous pretty quick.

[DarthLaxian]

Not all societies in Thedas, only the Adrastian ones and only after the Chantry imposed it (and even then it was resisted in places like Rivvain).  For that matter Andraste herself didn't want such a system.

 

Indeed - mage haters just used her name to get their wish...it's like what many European countries are now trying to do after the Paris attack on that satiric magazine, they want to use that to press for more invasive monitoring and control of the population (video-surveillance for example, which Germans in particular normally hate like the devil does holy water!)...it's a bad thing (or in Andrastes case - maybe (I am no so sure, as I don't like the chantry - in part because they imprison people unjustly, amongst other things like fighting non-believers and oppressing the elfs!) - a good thing) used to get something even worse approved in order to "fight the bad thing" (or: prevent it from happening again...as if that would really work)

 

ps: The circles are prisons - yes, they are pretty nice (all things considered) compared to many (maybe even most - though to me it looks like Thedas is a lot better than the real middle ages were!) places...after all you get good food, shelter, education, protection (no one is going to rob or murder you there under normal circumstances), medical care, access to clean water etc. - hell, you might even end up in a position of power, no matter if you are the son of a noble (though it's more likely for them - connections and family-name do help!) or the son of a farmer - but they are still prisons and yes, a system like this leads to eventual rebellion, it's inevitable! After all, it looks like - with the exception of the elfs and peasants in Orlais (who the Chevaliers often hurt without them having any way to protect themselves) - peasants aren't regularly abused...and in the circle abuse happens a lot more often compared to the outside world (rape, forced tranquility etc.), so many (particularly the ones who have suffered abuse) mages are of course willing to take their chances (add to that that they have ways to make a decent living - magic does help, but so does education: many know how to heal, make potions, enchant things (note: yes, mages can use Lyrium - well, at least the magisters of Tevinter know, otherwise Fenris's owner would not have been able to make those lyrium-markings!), hunt dangerous animals, work as a mercenary etc. - and nothing is really holding them in the circles...well, except for chantry law and the templars (jailors/prison-wardens!))