242 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

I did agree that Templars overstepped their authority. DA2 points out that Harrowed mages are not supposed to be made Tranquil. It is not meant for punishment. I know of no cases in Fereldan's Circle where it was used as punishment for some crime or such, no Harrowed mage was made Tranquil there without them requesting it. That I know of, I haven't read all the books or comics.

 

Jowan was going to be made Tranquil because there was no confidence that he would be able to pass his Harrowing. It was deemed a better alternative than possession. That he was resorting to learn blood magic, or was suspected to resort to, just showed how weak of will he was and such. They didn't know he did blood magic for sure before he actually used it, so the Tranquility was only going to happen because they believed he couldn't do the Harrowing.

 

Jowan was very clearly and deliberately being punished with Tranquility in lieu of a Death sentence.  Irving makes it very clear when you talk to him.

[IanPolaris]

My responses in Bold

Thanks for your comments IanPolaris.

 

-However, I don't remember Andraste saying that mages and mundanes should live side by side. She didn't say they should be locked up. She just said that magic was dangerous and mages have a responsibility and a burden.

 

Not according to Mother Giselle.  Andraste did NOT say that magic was dangerous and she did intent for mages and non-mages to live in peace side by side.  I don't say that.  Mother Giselle does. She admits that the Chantry has become distorted from what Andraste wanted when challenged on this point.  She also points out that Andraste's words have to be interpreted according to the conditions at the time, and even then she only said that magic shouldn't rule men.

 

-Your opinion of Vivienne is not fact, but your impression of her. Her willing to risk her life on the front lines shows to me that she does care about the world. If she just wanted position and was selfish, she would have just sent her Loyalist to help fight. However, she knew she was a capable fighter and an asset on the front lines, where she would be risking her life to save Thedas.

 

She is willing to murder her own lover to advance in the game.  I'd say that's evidence enough.

 

-I didn't say that abominations ran rampant or anything in the past or in other systems outside the Circle. Just because something is high risk, doesn't mean it is commonplace.

 

There is no evidence that trained mages are high risk to become abominations.  Now if you say that all mages should undergo mandatory training, I won't argue (I've always said this as well), but that's a far cry from throwing them into prison for being what they are.  At the very least the risk is been greatly exaggerated.

[TheLastArchivist]

I was talking to Vivienne and she was telling me about her suite in the Circle and her wing at the estate.  But she said that most mages were allowed to live outside the Circle with the First Enchanters permission, and that Kirkwall was an exception.  When exactly did this start because I know in Origins during the mage origin I didn't feel like I could leave?  Mages were escaping the Circle not walking out.

 

Has this ever been mentioned before?

I had the same doubt. If we ask the templars who guard the big doors in the Ferelden Circle, they state clearly that we can't leave.

So wtf Bioware wut r u doin

[LD Little Dragon]

Anders proves that life in the Ferelden circle wasn't that bad. He escaped several times, and several times the Templars brought him back. He was never made Tranquil though, and doesn't seem to have been mistreated by the Templars in any way. In fact Anders even implies that he let himself be captured, because before the whole Justice thing he was more of a prankster than an ideologue, and he apparently had a thing for one of the female Templars sent to bring him back in.

Did you miss the dialogue in Awakenings where he mentioned spending a year a Solitary? 

 

That's not only mistreatment, but could probably be classified as torture.

 

Awakening Andes wasn't a happy-go-lucky prankster.  There was a lot more of DA2 PTSD Anders already in Awakening than people realize.

[Eveangaline]

I was talking to Vivienne and she was telling me about her suite in the Circle and her wing at the estate.  But she said that most mages were allowed to live outside the Circle with the First Enchanters permission, and that Kirkwall was an exception.  When exactly did this start because I know in Origins during the mage origin I didn't feel like I could leave?  Mages were escaping the Circle not walking out.

 

Has this ever been mentioned before?

 

Most mages are probably allowed to leave with the first enchanters permission.

I'm guessing most mages will probably go their lives without ever getting that permission.

If I had to bet most that do get allowances have to spend a long time, as in decades, building up a good reputation, or are born from noble or rich families (or have connections among noble or rich families) that can strong arm the circle.

 

 

My responses in Bold

 

When the hell does Viv murder her lover?

[IanPolaris]

 

When the hell does Viv murder her lover?

 

What do you think that potion you gave her was?  Did you really think it was a youth draught?  Viv lied to you.

[Eveangaline]

What do you think that potion you gave her was?  Did you really think it was a youth draught?  Viv lied to you.

 

I can totally see why she'd poison an already dying man with something that requires special rare ingredients instead of using easier methods that mean not getting you involved, and how that would somehow benefit her in the game to have her most powerful ally die and also to make sure she killed him instead of the thing that was already killing him. That's completely reasonable and not you being insane.

[AshenEndymion]

What do you think that potion you gave her was?  Did you really think it was a youth draught?  Viv lied to you.

 

You do realize that Duke Bastien de Ghislain dies whether you help Vivienne, give her a normal wyvern heart, or do nothing, right?

 

I mean, sure Vivienne would probably be willing to kill Bastien if it would ensure her rise in power, but it's highly dubious that it would.  There's no guarantee that the Inquisitor is going to help her, and it's clear that she's only feared as much among the Orlesian nobles because she's Duke Ghislain's mistress...

 

One may as well say that Dorian wrote the letter to Mother Giselle, feigned ignorance, and hired an actor to play his father, in an effort to test and garner sympathy from the Inquisitor....  That's just as possible as Vivienne killing Duke Ghislain, in my mind...

[Wittand25]

What do you think that potion you gave her was?  Did you really think it was a youth draught?  Viv lied to you.

If you give her the real hearth it is a youth potion, if you give her the wrong hearth it is a poison, which is clearly shown with her tarot cards (real one yellow background and she holds a sick person, fake one red background and she holds a corpse)

[IanPolaris]

If you give her the real hearth it is a youth potion, if you give her the wrong hearth it is a poison, which is clearly shown with her tarot cards (real one yellow background and she holds a sick person, fake one red background and she holds a corpse)

Nope.  It's still a poison and he still dies.  If you press her on the issue, you get some booku disapproval, but you can get it out of her that she intended him to die all along....but in a way that wouldn't be ascribed to her.

 

I have Viv the real heart twice, and the Duke dies 2 times out of two.

 

Edit:  You can find more about it on this thread:

 

http://forum.bioware...ienne-trick-me/

[Wittand25]

Nope.  It's still a poison and he still dies.  If you press her on the issue, you get some booku disapproval, but you can get it out of her that she intended him to die all along....but in a way that wouldn't be ascribed to her.

 

I have Viv the real heart twice, and the Duke dies 2 times out of two.

 

Edit:  You can find more about it on this thread:

 

http://forum.bioware...ienne-trick-me/

Yes he always dies, I never claimed otherwise.

But she does not try to poison him. She tries to cure him and the cure fails.

She has nothing to gain from poisoning him, while trying even a temporary cure like the youth potion greatly improves her standing and increases her chances of becoming divine.

[Adanu]

Did you miss the dialogue in Awakenings where he mentioned spending a year a Solitary? 

 

That's not only mistreatment, but could probably be classified as torture.

 

Awakening Andes wasn't a happy-go-lucky prankster.  There was a lot more of DA2 PTSD Anders already in Awakening than people realize.

A lot of people are blind from confirmation bias on this point. Anders always wanted to do something about the Circle, but didn't feel he was capable of doing anything lasting. Justice only brought the desire to the forefront earlier.

 

[Daerog]

Viv disapproves of people getting to know her personal life because it is dangerous for players of the Game to do so. She is a very guarded person who doesn't want to show weakness, which Cole points out when she says how she doesn't want to be seen as weak ever again after her Harrowing.

 

Viv did use his death to help the Inquisition and her position, but that doesn't mean she killed him. He was already on his deathbed, what would be the point of poisoning him other than to risk her position for the fun of it?

 

Cole is a compassion spirit, he sees people who are hurt, not the reputations that are hurt, and Cole shows that Viv is hurt when that jerk insulted her relationship with the Duke, which shows emotional investment. She did care for him, whether it was love or not can be up for debate.

 

She can be a jerk, she is rude, but she does care for the world, her actions prove it. Yes, she does care about her position (why is that wrong? It is not wrong to wish advancement if you think yourself capable), but it hasn't shown her murder anyone for her position... other than Venatori and Red Templars...

[LobselVith8]

Viv disapproves of people getting to know her personal life because it is dangerous for players of the Game to do so. She is a very guarded person who doesn't want to show weakness, which Cole points out when she says how she doesn't want to be seen as weak ever again after her Harrowing.

 

Viv did use his death to help the Inquisition and her position, but that doesn't mean she killed him. He was already on his deathbed, what would be the point of poisoning him other than to risk her position for the fun of it?

 

To help the Inquisition? Vivienne used his death to help herself, and to try and make it seem as though she had the Inquisitor's support, which the main character can call her out on.

 

Cole is a compassion spirit, he sees people who are hurt, not the reputations that are hurt, and Cole shows that Viv is hurt when that jerk insulted her relationship with the Duke, which shows emotional investment. She did care for him, whether it was love or not can be up for debate.

 

She can be a jerk, she is rude, but she does care for the world, her actions prove it. Yes, she does care about her position (why is that wrong? It is not wrong to wish advancement if you think yourself capable), but it hasn't shown her murder anyone for her position... other than Venatori and Red Templars...

 

Along with the mages who refuse to capitulate to her Chantry controlled Circle, of course.

[o Ventus]

I was talking to Vivienne and she was telling me about her suite in the Circle and her wing at the estate.  But she said that most mages were allowed to live outside the Circle with the First Enchanters permission, and that Kirkwall was an exception.  When exactly did this start because I know in Origins during the mage origin I didn't feel like I could leave?  Mages were escaping the Circle not walking out.

 

Has this ever been mentioned before?

It depends on the Circle. The Montsimmard Circle is very lax, according to Vivienne (but she was also effectively royalty over there, so she may have more privilege than your average mage there). The Kirkwall Circle was a hellhole. The Ferelden Circle will let you leave for a while, but IIRC, you can't live away from the Circle in Ferelden. If I'm remembering it right, the Circle in Dairsmuid was lax to the point where the mages within mingled freely with normal citizens, but that particular Circle was annulled. 

[rigron]

In Origins, you just got to the rank of Mage, and then you became a Warden the next day. Apprentices certainly can't leave since they haven't been tested.

 

Not exactly sure why some would want to move out, it was pretty nice in that tower. Finn certainly didn't care to leave until he found out he could discover more history and knowledge to geek out on that the Circle couldn't get for him.

 

In The Stone Prisoner, we learn about a mage who lived where you find Shale, he even had a family. Mostly, this is due to his involvement with Fereldan's liberation, but it is an example of a Circle mage getting the nod to live outside the tower.

 

We have seen enchanters outside the Circle before, like that one botanist in Awakening.

 

I'm just giving examples of the life of mages shown before DA2, so it isn't a new thing, Vivienne just highlights it for those coming from DA2.

 

Maybe because there are some mages who don´t want to live as prisioners between 4 walls their entire lives?

[LobselVith8]

It depends on the Circle. The Montsimmard Circle is very lax, according to Vivienne (but she was also effectively royalty over there, so she may have more privilege than your average mage there). The Kirkwall Circle was a hellhole. The Ferelden Circle will let you leave for a while, but IIRC, you can't live away from the Circle in Ferelden. If I'm remembering it right, the Circle in Dairsmuid was lax to the point where the mages within mingled freely with normal citizens, but that particular Circle was annulled. 

 

Rivaini is culturally different than the rest of the Andrastian kingdoms, and the Rivaini of the Circle were allowed to continue their traditions under the watch of the local templars; when the foreign Seekers came and discovered this, the entire Circle of Dairsmuid was annulled.

[Ashagar]

I will agree Rivani is certainly different given apparently even the dalish and humans get along there. 

 

The free marches they seem to be all over the place with its various city states. You had Kirkwall's circle of hell and then you have Ostwick's circle which other than some rebels murdering the first enchanter apparently tried for the most part stay on the sidelines and where they apparently allowed some of the mages to visit their families. Then there is another city in the free marches you can have a war mission with that both the mages and Templars apparently tried stay out of the conflict with the Templars sticking to their mission of protecting the mages instead of obeying the lord seekers orders.

[Shahadem]

Only in DAI are mages allowed to live outside the circle. They were never able to in DA:O or DA2.

 

The only mages who got to live outside the tower in DA:O and DA2 are mages who were able to either raise armies, escape from the tower and destroy their blood vial, or simply avoid detection by the chantry. There is no single case in DA:O and DAI of mages every being granted the privelage of living outside the circle simply because of good behaviour.

[ashwind]

Only in DAI are mages allowed to live outside the circle. They were never able to in DA:O or DA2.

 

Well... Wynne could not only live outside the circle, she could even travel to see the world before her time....

[Daerog]

The Stone Prisoner mentions a mage who lived outside the Circle tower and checked in with the Circle every now and then, which was mentioned earlier. He did break rules with having a family or whatever, but he was allowed to live outside the Circle. This was shown in DA:O.

 

Edit: Good behavior may help win over the First Enchanter, but no one said that good behavior alone allowed you to live outside. You likely needed connections on the outside, with some form of income set up and a place available to you. The Circle won't provide for you if you live outside it and the FE is responsible for Circle mages under his or her charge.

 

This is all assumption, though, not fact. We also have only been shown two Circles in games, some events from other towers are in the codex, and the White Spire is in a book. The day to day life is different, we haven't been shown it for every tower, and people have differing views of daily life even in the same tower... so...

[Shahadem]

Yes he always dies, I never claimed otherwise.

But she does not try to poison him. She tries to cure him and the cure fails.

She has nothing to gain from poisoning him, while trying even a temporary cure like the youth potion greatly improves her standing and increases her chances of becoming divine.

 

Then it's an awfully huge coincidence that he dies as soon as he finishes drinking the potion Viv feeds him. Face it, Viv poisoned him. That's why she needed to have you collect the poison from the creatures with the most toxic poison and why he died as soon as he drank the potion.

[Daerog]

He was on his deathbed, he was dying, his family knew this beforehand, it is not a coincidence that he died.

 

After drinking, he was able to awaken, speak his love to Vivienne, then pass away.

 

Vivienne had good relations with his family, she didn't need to pretend to help him, what she did was gain approval for the Inquisition when it was learned that the Inquisitor also tried to help Vivienne, and with Viv a part of the Inquisition, she also benefitted.

 

There are multiple ways to view Vivienne, it seems, since she plays the Game well and people are interpreting her actions based on their view of her.

 

If she simply wanted to poison him, a man who was ill and on his deathbed already, super strong poison would be unnecessary. A pillow would have sufficed.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Well its quite simple really. Most of the runaway mages didn't get permission from the first enchanter to leave the circle to live their own lives. Most were probably apprentices who decided running rather then staying through the full education process would be a good idea, or ones who the first enchanter thought would abuse their power if allowed to leave or who might get taken advantage of.

 

Not really an unsafe call either considering the mages we meet throughout both dragon age games prior to inquisition as well as the dlc have been either 1. Blood mages, 2. Mercenaries, 3. Heavily anti-andrastian radicals, 4. Anders. And the ones who meet who aren't overly hostile outright are the dalish and mages who appear to have been given permission to leave the circle.

 

Of course it doesn't help that our only insights into circle life where we live it come from a manipulative blood mage trying to weasel his way out of owning up to his mistakes, a apostate convinced she's the be all and end all of all magic users ever, and a radical who would go on to enact a terrorist attack against a chantry full of innocent people just to make a point.

[KaiserShep]

Then it's an awfully huge coincidence that he dies as soon as he finishes drinking the potion Viv feeds him. Face it, Viv poisoned him. That's why she needed to have you collect the poison from the creatures with the most toxic poison and why he died as soon as he drank the potion.

 

The reason this doesn't make sense is because of how specific her ingredients apparently need to be. If she wanted to poison the guy, why does a snowy wyvern's heart matter? We learn from the Naturalist quest that the livers of these things are poisonous too. Heck, as an alchemist, she could just conjure up any kind of poison without having the Inquisitor go on a wild goose chase. The guy is already on his deathbed. She could just stifle his feeble face with his pillow with none the wiser. It's not like there's a CSI: Orlais that can figure out that she killed him.