262 réponses à ce sujet

[ShadyKat]

How was humanity portrayed as special throughout the series?

Were able to hold their own against the turians in the first contact war, even though the turians were more advanced in terms of technology and warfare.


Were granted a seat at the counsel faster than any other race.

Were pretty much running the Citadel in ME2, even though they were just granted a seat on the counsel.

Were more than once said to be unique because for some odd reason they could think outside the box.

Entire galaxy is being wiped out, screw the other planets, we have to "take back Earth" even though the Citadel is the heart of the galactic society.


















The series over and over again tried to point out how awesome humans were, and it got worst with each game. The first game actually isn't that bad, but by ME3 the series was pretty much about "Humanity. ....... and those other races".

[Vortex13]

Were able to hold their own against the turians in the first contact war, even though the turians were more advanced in terms of technology and warfare.


Were granted a seat at the counsel faster than any other race.

Were pretty much running the Citadel in ME2, even though they were just granted a seat on the counsel.

Were more than once said to be unique because for some odd reason they could think outside the box.

Entire galaxy is being wiped out, screw the other planets, we have to "take back Earth" even though the Citadel is the heart of the galactic society.


















The series over and over again tried to point out how awesome humans were, and it got worst with each game. The first game actually isn't that bad, but by ME3 the series was pretty much about "Humanity. ....... and those other races".

 

 

 

I never could understand the whole push to "Retake Earth" in ME 3. Sure the Citadel was moved there at the very end of the game, so trying to retake the center of galactic government, and the heart of the Relay network made sense, but before that? Earth was lost, held no significant tactical advantage, and was out of the way as far as important galactic centers was concerned. 

 

 

But no, we have to retake Earth because its our home, and everyone has to band together to help us get it back. All those other species who lost their home worlds? "Screw them! They can't help us!"

 

 

 

I love how Renegade Shepard's response to the loss of the Hanar home world is "They did it to themselves." Really Shepard? Well going by that logic, we humans are to blame for the loss of Earth, and no effort whatsoever should be made to retake it.

[God]

Don't forget Cerberus. A racist terrorist group that can stand toe to toe with other species' military fleets, can plant spies and double agents in every level of galactic government, and develops brand new or improved technology on their own despite the rest of the galaxy collaborating on efforts.

 

The superior Normandy, the Lazarus project, advanced aerospace fighters, a medi-gel variant that can aid in Turain recovery more than anything else in the galaxy (and Cerberus discovered this in rudimentary tests), and let's not forget the ability to disrupt and subvert Reaper signals. All of this from a small group of human scientists and engineers; sure they did horrible things to achieve their successes, but the fact that a galaxy of trillions is nowhere even close to the level of achievement that Cerberus has just screams: "Humans are special!"

 

 

The amount of stunts Cerberus pulls off would be like the Klu Klux Klan, or Al Qaeda being able to develop anti-gravity or cold fusion technology while the rest of the world still considers such things to be science fiction.

 

Two things: 

 

1) Cerberus is not a racist organization, nor are they a particularly terrorist organization. They are an independent pro-human military/scientific/political/economic/espionage entity. As a pro-human Cerberus advocate and veteran of conflict with Islamic terrorists (including a recent return for RR), I can tell you Cerberus doesn't fit that label or function at all.

 

2) More nitpicky, but cold fusion is indeed science fiction; there is no theoretical model that is currently accepted by physicists, and it is considered a pseudo-science. A more accurate or plausible scenario (and more attractive) is vacuum energy.

[MrFob]

How was humanity portrayed as special throughout the series? 

 

To say it in the words of (troll renegade) Commander Shepard:
"If you want a problem shot, call a Turian. If you want a problem talked to death, call an Asari. If you want a NEW problem, call a Salarian. … If you want a problem fixed, call a human."

[God]

I definitely oppose that. One of the main positives in the ME trilogy was that I had one character I could really identify with. In Dragon Age for example, I feel like this disembodied entity and hovers over the battlefield like a daemon, possessing different people at different times. In ME, I was Commander Shepard. I was the leader of the team, so I could give orders but I I could only do so from my perspective. Having me switch squad mates would really mess with that perceptive IMO.

 

On topic, whether the main PC should be allowed to be an alien largely depends on how BW is going to distribute resources. I would like the idea of having a choice but I do acknowledge that this would potentially cost quite an enormous amount of time, effort and disc space, so if I had to choose between more species selection or more story content, I'll go with content every time.

 

I don't really see a problem with being able to shift characters in combat/gameplay.

 

That's a bit different than an omniscient entity exerting control over everyone. You can interpret it as Shepard giving orders and using coordination in squad drills and tactics.

 

Besides, you already do that with Shepard. Going to the Citadel and dancing away, charging a Reaper army with a pistol, spinning around in circles in public for no reason. Come on, it's the same thing unless you want to say that Shepard has a sever case of Space Madness.

[Vortex13]

Two things: 

 

1) Cerberus is not a racist organization, nor are they a particularly terrorist organization. They are an independent pro-human military/scientific/political/economic/espionage entity. As a pro-human Cerberus advocate and veteran of conflict with Islamic terrorists (including a recent return for RR), I can tell you Cerberus doesn't fit that label or function at all.

 

2) More nitpicky, but cold fusion is indeed science fiction; there is no theoretical model that is currently accepted by physicists, and it is considered a pseudo-science. A more accurate or plausible scenario (and more attractive) is vacuum energy.

 

 

Cerberus believes that humanity is the only species capable of ruling the galaxy and that all other species should be sub servant to our goals; how is that not racist?

 

A person can have a strong sense of national pride (or in Mass Effect's case species pride), but founding an organization around the belief that you are inherently better at everything then everyone not like you is quite racist.

[themikefest]

Had humanity not shown up, the rest of the galaxy would've been harvested by the reapers

[God]

Cerberus believes that humanity is the only species capable of ruling the galaxy and that all other species should be sub servant to our goals; how is that not racist?

 

A person can have a strong sense of national pride (or in Mass Effect's case species pride), but founding an organization around the belief that you are inherently better at everything then everyone not like you is quite racist.

 

That's not racism at all, not by definition, notional and practical.

 

Plus, Cerberus does not believe that humanity is the only species capable of ruling the galaxy. They want us to have enough power so that we don't get the short end of the stick ever again.

 

And Cerberus is not that organization. If anything, they're an organization dedicated to ensuring that humanity doesn't fall behind and is always at the head of the curve, not out of inherent superiority, but for practical survival.

[Vortex13]

Had humanity not shown up, the rest of the galaxy would've been harvested by the reapers

 

 

We don't know that. If humanity had never discovered mass effect technology than who's to say that Eden Prime would have been colonized? And if that was the case, would Sarren have even been able to locate the Prothean beacon?

 

 

And if Eden Prime was colonized by another species, why couldn't they have been the ones to get the cipher?

[God]

We don't know that. If humanity had never discovered mass effect technology than who's to say that Eden Prime would have been colonized? And if that was the case, would Sarren have even been able to locate the Prothean beacon?

 

 

And if Eden Prime was colonized by another species, why couldn't they have been the ones to get the cipher?

 

This is irrelevant. The point is that the Reapers would have arrived and wiped out the galaxy again.

[MrFob]

This is irrelevant. The point is that the Reapers would have arrived and wiped out the galaxy again.

 

Maybe, or maybe because Dr. Qiun would never have connected Saren with Sovereign, which led to his indoctrination, Saren might have been the "The Shepard" of this alternative timeline.

 

While I agree that humans have a special role in the story, IIRC, there is nothing that Shepar does which specifically requires him to be human. Ultimately, he is replaceable.

 

The point is, no one knows what might have happened. This is like speculating what would have happened if Stalin or Hittler had never lived. Would our world be different? Sure. Would it be better or worse off? Who knows.

 

About your point above though: Remaining in Shepards body really focuses the my mind on him/her though and it reinforces my imagination that I am giving orders through him/her. Also, he fact that I cannot directly control the other characters helps to give them more of their own personality. Sure, they will never disobey orders (that would be cool too, if you do something really stupid, probably too hard on the AI though) but at least I am given a feeling to interact with them, rather than acting through them. I get what you are saying about that inevitable disconnect of gameplay mechanics with the proposed scenario but IMO, if you can minimize it, you should.

[Vortex13]

Maybe, or maybe because Dr. Qiun would never have connected Saren with Sovereign, which led to his indoctrination, Saren might have been the "The Shepard" of this alternative timeline.

 

The point is, no one knows what might have happened. This is like speculating what would have happened if Stalin or Hittler had never lived. Would our world be different? Sure. Would it be better or worse off? Who knows.

 

About your point above though: Remaining in Shepards body really focuses the my mind on him/her though and it reinforces my imagination that I am giving orders through him/her. Also, he fact that I cannot directly control the other characters helps to give them more of their own personality. Sure, they will never disobey orders (that would be cool too, if you do something really stupid, probably too hard on the AI though) but at least I am given a feeling to interact with them, rather than acting through them. I get what you are saying about that inevitable disconnect of gameplay mechanics with the proposed scenario but IMO, if you can minimize it, you should.

 

 

I liked the mechanic they had in Wasteland 2 with your squad mates having the chance to 'go rogue' and become uncontrollable for a time. Their chance at disobeying orders was tied to how charismatic you were, as well as your interactions with them. 

 

It would be cool if a system like this could be implemented within a BioWare game, although I'm sure that some players will hate it and/or immediately try to kill their rebellious companions. 

[MrFob]

Yea, don't get me wrong, while I like the theory of it, I doubt it could be implemented in a sensible way. Game AI scripts (and particularly BioWare's) is not yet where it can make an informed decision about whether the players orders are sensible or not. So let's shelf that idea until 2050 or something.

[SNascimento]

Yes, human should be the only playable race.

More than a single playable species is the first step into a game that loses focus and cannot be properly followed by a sequel. 

[Vortex13]

That's not racism at all, not by definition, notional and practical.

 

Plus, Cerberus does not believe that humanity is the only species capable of ruling the galaxy. They want us to have enough power so that we don't get the short end of the stick ever again.

 

And Cerberus is not that organization. If anything, they're an organization dedicated to ensuring that humanity doesn't fall behind and is always at the head of the curve, not out of inherent superiority, but for practical survival.

 

 

Putting one's species above all others in terms of survival is a very muddy area when it comes to issues like racism (or really specism if we're being particular). Cerberus believes that humanity is worth more than other species; that if push came to shove, they would gladly sacrifice anyone else to ensure humans survive and remain the top of the food chain (as it were). That is technically not racism(specism) but it does foster a mindset that all other aliens in the galaxy are expendable since they are not worth the same as human life, as well as the notion that all other species are obstacles between humanity and assuring our dominance in the galaxy.

 

 

This mindset easily leads to one viewing humanity as simply better than all the other alien species in the galaxy; doing a little genocide here and there is completely acceptable as long as humanity remains on top.  It's no longer about working together with other races for the betterment of all parties involved, it more about how can this befit humans, and can I sabotage the others since they may pose a threat to our species in the future. Since humanity is intrinsically more valued than other forms of life, it doesn't take a great leap of logic to stop viewing others as people, in their own right. Etc.

 

 

On paper, Cerberus and other Pro-Human groups are all about ensuring our survival, but in practice all of those actions and foundational beliefs lead to very racist and xenophobic tendencies.

[Gwydden]

The way I see it, Cerberus it's simply about furthering human interests, even if it comes at the expense of other species. It's hardly "racist". Selfish and self-centered, sure, but it's just that. A 'everyone else, take care of yours, I'll take care of mine' kind of attitude. They don't even rule out cooperation, as ME2 showed. And frankly, it's not like other species don't have the exact same philosophy.

[themikefest]

Putting one's species above all others in terms of survival is a very muddy area when it comes to issues like racism (or really specism if we're being particular). Cerberus believes that humanity is worth more than other species; that if push came to shove, they would gladly sacrifice anyone else to ensure humans survive and remain the top of the food chain (as it were). That is technically not racism(specism) but it does foster a mindset that all other aliens in the galaxy are expendable since they are not worth the same as human life, as well as the notion that all other species are obstacles between humanity and assuring our dominance in the galaxy.

 

 

This mindset easily leads to one viewing humanity as simply better than all the other alien species in the galaxy; doing a little genocide here and there is completely acceptable as long as humanity remains on top.  It's no longer about working together with other races for the betterment of all parties involved, it more about how can this befit humans, and can I sabotage the others since they may pose a threat to our species in the future. Since humanity is intrinsically more valued than other forms of life, it doesn't take a great leap of logic to stop viewing others as people, in their own right. Etc.

 

 

On paper, Cerberus and other Pro-Human groups are all about ensuring our survival, but in practice all of those actions and foundational beliefs lead to very racist and xenophobic tendencies.

The same can be said about the asari and their failure to reveal the beacon earlier. They didn't care about the other species. How many lives could've been saved had that beacon been revealed earlier?  They only revelaed it after the reapers were on their doorstep

[Barquiel]

I really hope I never see Cerberus or a similar human supremacist-terrorist organization again. They got far too much attention as it was in the Shepard trilogy...and the novels...and comics series.

[Vortex13]

The way I see it, Cerberus it's simply about furthering human interests, even if it comes at the expense of other species. It's hardly "racist". Selfish and self-centered, sure, but it's just that. A 'everyone else, take care of yours, I'll take care of mine' kind of attitude. They don't even rule out cooperation, as ME2 showed. And frankly, it's not like other species don't have the exact same philosophy.

 

 

Its true that other species have these views, but giving Cerberus a free pass because there are other groups like them in galaxy doesn't excuse them from their actions. Cerberus did far more damage to the galaxy than other species' versions of them did. Even Balak's actions in the name of the Batarians were pretty small in scope compared to the group that did everything in their power to undermined the combined galaxy's efforts to stop the Reapers.

 

 

Why try and sabotage the Krogan/Turian alliance? Why try and eliminate the Citadel Council? Etc. 

 

 

 

I really hope I never see Cerberus or a similar human supremacist-terrorist organization again. They got far too much attention as it was in the Shepard trilogy...and the novels...and comics series.

 

 

 

This. Even agreeing to disagree that Cerberus was justified in its actions, I too am weary of seeing them behind apparently everything in the galaxy.

 

It would be a nice change of pace if we could see some more of the other aliens in the setting; you know aliens that have been capable of space flight since before humans invented writing.

[Gwydden]

Its true that other species have these views, but giving Cerberus a free pass because there are other groups like them in galaxy doesn't excuse them from their actions. Cerberus did far more damage to the galaxy than other species' versions of them did. Even Balak's actions in the name of the Batarians were pretty small in scope compared to the group that did everything in their power to undermined the combined galaxy's efforts to stop the Reapers.


Why try and sabotage the Krogan/Turian alliance? Why try and eliminate the Citadel Council? Etc.

I don't feel inclined to hold that against them since they were indoctrinated... by the writers sudden eagerness to make them villains, that is. I agree they went overboard with them, in every possible way.

[Vortex13]

I don't feel inclined to hold that against them since they were indoctrinated... by the writers sudden eagerness to make them villains, that is. I agree they went overboard with them, in every possible way.

 

 

ME 3 did take a lot of elements and cranked them up to 11 I'll agree, but Cerberus was still working in an antagonistic role as far back as ME 1. Killing the admiral as well as several platoons worth of Alliance personal, trying to use Rachni as biological weapons, trying to utilize the Thorian creepers for various actives, etc.

[Ctoagu]

In my eyes, I don't see a point in arguing over this. Bioware needs to make a protagonist with strong characterization, to build up a character who's going to be remembered as something other than just "Shepard's successor". Plain and simple. That matters to me far more than what species that character happens to be, whether or not there happens to be an option for it.

 

Regarding the "humans are special" deal, I have but one thing to say - I want to see humanity in the ME setting having to EARN it this time around. No more riding Shepard's coattails all the way to the top, how about we start seeing our species as a whole actually DOING awesome stuff rather than having the writers hand to them on a silver platter? And quit making every other species hold the idiot ball just to make the guys in the spotlight shine.

[I Am Robot]

Had humanity not shown up, the rest of the galaxy would've been harvested by the reapers

 

The message that I got throughout the games was that if SHEPARD hadn't shown up everyone would have been harvested. Also if I remember correctly the contact war ended when other races intervened to end hostilities. I didn't know about the "human council" cause I've never had a renegade playthrough. Yeah that narrative is pretty stupid.

 

Humans invented medi gel? And the Asari were the first to discover mass relays and the citadel. The Turians have the strongest military in the galaxy and the Salarians are the most technologically advanced. Don't see how an invention portrays humanity as special.  

[Undead Han]

I really hope I never see Cerberus or a similar human supremacist-terrorist organization again. They got far too much attention as it was in the Shepard trilogy...and the novels...and comics series.

 

This.

 

At some point after Mass Effect 1 some of the writers apparently decided that Cerberus was more interesting than the Reapers. I respectfully disagree, and hope to never hear anything about Cerberus again. Also as the galactic Judas or Quisling the Cerberus 'brand' should be all but destroyed in the aftermath of the Reaper War. 

[God]

And of course, I want to see Cerberus back in ME4, and sympathetic to boot. 

 

I would actually like to see an organization that is similar to them, does the same things as them, and, perhaps most importantly, the ability to sympathize with them and support them.

 

ME3 really jerks that away from you.