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[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

As i said committing a crime and police arresting you isn't playing police as fiddle just knowing that something obvious happens.

 

From what i remember lambert attempted arrest rhys and he had good reasons for doing that and mages didn't want hand him to lambert and templars had to intervene.

 

Wasn't sometimes adrian plan to convince wynne to rebelion because templars arrested rhys i doubt that being demolished by templars was part of her plan she screwd up and divine with her incompetence lead to what she wanted in first place.

 

No? He wanted abolish divine in first place (no wonder as she was an idiot) and her actions pretty much allowed him to take almost all her forces leaving her pretty much toothless.Only thing that went bad for him was whole cole matter as it lead to his death.

Well, assuming that's true (and given that you have a history of ignoring facts I'll need someone else's word besides yours) Lambert is less of an idiot than the wiki paints him as. That said, how does he take Rhys? Does he storm a meeting hall with every first enchanter in it, as I'm given to understand, or does he calmly and quietly grab Rhys while nobody's looking so as to avoid having the Templars look like tyrants during a sensitive time?

 

As for Lambert getting out from under the Divine (who I agree is not the brightest), that's a silver lining more than anything else. He doesn't have Chantry funding anymore, and their monopoly on lyrium is now a weapon against him instead of for him. And all the mages have escaped and are ready for an armed rebellion against him.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Well, assuming that's true (and given that you have a history of ignoring facts I'll need someone else's word besides yours) Lambert is less of an idiot than the wiki paints him as. That said, how does he take Rhys? Does he storm a meeting hall with every first enchanter in it, as I'm given to understand, or does he calmly and quietly grab Rhys while nobody's looking so as to avoid having the Templars look like tyrants during a sensitive time?

 

As for Lambert getting out from under the Divine (who I agree is not the brightest), that's a silver lining more than anything else. He doesn't have Chantry funding anymore, and their monopoly on lyrium is now a weapon against him instead of for him. And all the mages have escaped and are ready for an armed rebellion against him.

To be honest it was good for him mages wanted revolt crushing them with ease was a sign for rest of mages what their chances are not mention opportunity to remove rebellious mages.

 

And yet templars were fine at least until red lyrium in dai and leader that pretty much wanted to lead to their destruction.Not to mention mages were losing as we were shown in dai.Pretty much chantry needed templars not templars them.   

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

To be honest it was good for him mages wanted revolt crushing them with ease was a sign for rest of mages what their chances are not mention opportunity to remove rebellious mages.

 

And yet templars were fine at least until red lyrium in dai and leader that pretty much wanted to lead to their destruction.Not to mention mages were losing as we were shown in dai.Pretty much chantry required templars not templars them.   

Somehow I'd gotten the impression the Templars were having a tough time. Maybe from the fact that the war went on for years, or the fact that the Summit was seen as desirable enough for both sides to go, or the note from the Templar to his mage brother and the Templar being found dead where he wanted them to meet, or something similar. If Lambert (or hell, even Lucius Corin) had successfully crushed them the mages would have been in no position to demand anything for centuries, but unless you can point to something major I've missed I'm going to have to conclude that wasn't happening.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Somehow I'd gotten the impression the Templars were having a tough time. Maybe from the fact that the war went on for years, or the fact that the Summit was seen as desirable enough for both sides to go, or the note from the Templar to his mage brother and the Templar being found dead where he wanted them to meet, or something similar. If Lambert (or hell, even Lucius Corin) had successfully crushed them the mages would have been in no position to demand anything for centuries, but unless you can point to something major I've missed I'm going to have to conclude that wasn't happening.

Lambert was long dead and well Lucius well he is Lucius ,as gaspard general said war isn't easy in fact all we know that divine hoped templars and mages were tired of fight not they were tired there is no assurance that summit was going to work or just was something more than divine wishful (and a lot characters said that) thinking neither it is said both sides were in equal position and could demand anything  but in fact we know that mages weren't in good position in that war.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Lambert was long dead and well Lucius well he is Lucius ,as gaspard general said war isn't easy in fact all we know that divine hoped templars and mages were tired of fight not they were tired there is no assurance that summit was going to work or just was something more than divine wishful (and a lot characters said that) thinking neither it is said both sides were in equal position and could demand anything  but in fact we know that mages weren't in good position in that war.

I am given to understand nobody was in a good position in that war. Point is, if it was going as well for the Templars at the time of Lambert's death as you say it would have been over by the time of DA2's framing story much less the time of Inquisition. The Summit would never have happened because the Templars (and the common people who were caught in the war's crossfire) wouldn't have needed it. I'm not making any judgments as to who was winning; all I'm judging is whether either side was curbstomping the other.

[TheKomandorShepard]

I am given to understand nobody was in a good position in that war. Point is, if it was going as well for the Templars at the time of Lambert's death as you say it would have been over by the time of DA2's framing story much less the time of Inquisition. The Summit would never have happened because the Templars (and the common people who were caught in the war's crossfire) wouldn't have needed it. I'm not making any judgments as to who was winning; all I'm judging is whether either side was curbstomping the other.

Good for templars? As i said war isn't nice but for lambert plans sure.It were negotiations and negitiations not always happen if both sides are equal as 1 side can be in far better postition to dictate terms for example templars could go there only to demand mages back under their control.And i didn't say templars were curbstomping mages i said they were in much better postion and not being part of chantry and war are 2 different things.

 

Besides as i said lambert died and with him his plans there is very good chance thing would go different route if lambert was alive to continue his plans. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Good for templars? As i said war isn't nice but for lambert plans sure.It were negotiations and negitiations not always happen if both sides are equal as 1 side can be in far better postition to dictate terms for example templars could go there only to demand mages back under their control.And i didn't say templars were curbstomping mages i said they were in much better postion and not being part of chantry and war are 2 different things.

 

Besides as i said lambert died and with him his plans there is very good chance thing would go different route if lambert was alive to continue his plans. 

A: I don't think there's any evidence of who was in a better position.

B: I don't think there's any evidence that Lambert had any plans that could have noticeably altered the course of the war.

 

Feel free to correct me on either point, but please cite actual evidence.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I exiled the Wardens to Anderfels and sacrificed Stroud in the fade. I could not allow the Wardens to be allies in Skyhold since they could still be corrupted by Corypheus. After what they did they deserved exile.

 

We'll raise an army to fight against the next blight. Rituals? They drink darkspawn blood to protect themselves. What's so difficult about that? Kill some darkspawn and collect their blood, get some volunteers and they drink it. The survivors go after the arch demon. No secret society.

[TheKomandorShepard]

A: I don't think there's any evidence of who was in a better position.

B: I don't think there's any evidence that Lambert had any plans that could have noticeably altered the course of the war.

 

Feel free to correct me on either point, but please cite actual evidence.

A:If fiona selling herself and other mages into slavery so they wouldn't be destroyed by templars isn't prove that they were doing rather poorly then well i don't know what is.

B:Lambert wanted also take control over the chantry so it rather changes things a little not mention he was person with that templars and seekers left chantry and went with him in first place.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I exiled the Wardens to Anderfels and sacrificed Stroud in the fade. I could not allow the Wardens to be allies in Skyhold since they could still be corrupted by Corypheus. After what they did they deserved exile.

 

We'll raise an army to fight against the next blight. Rituals? They drink darkspawn blood to protect themselves. What's so difficult about that? Kill some darkspawn and collect their blood, get some volunteers and they drink it. The survivors go after the arch demon. No secret society.

There's an actual ritual behind it. It's not just drinking darkspawn blood. If you do it this way (which your character wouldn't since you don't know even this much [edit: unless you recruited the mages, in which case I guess you could ask Fiona the whole truth though if you didn't do this my point stands]) you'd just be pointlessly poisoning a whole bunch of your best soldiers.

 

 

A:If fiona selling herself and other mages into slavery so they wouldn't be destroyed by templars isn't prove that they were doing rather poorly then well i don't know what is.

B:Lambert wanted also take control over the chantry so it rather changes things a little not mention he was person with that templars and seekers left chantry and went with him in first place.

A: The actual contract was for an indenture, which isn't quite as drastic. That said you'd think she'd save this for when things got to be at their most desperate, not least because it requires trusting a Tevinter Magister. That doesn't seem to be the case, however; she actually did it at around the time things were starting to look up. She'd just gotten an alliance with the Ferelden Crown. The Templars had no alliance with any ruler. I think she either feared the Templars more than they deserved, or the Tevinters less. (My guess is the latter.)

 

B: So he had big ambitions. Do we know if he'd thought far enough ahead to have a shot of making them reality? If he did, then why couldn't his subordinates? He didn't strike me as truly selfish, so you'd think he'd be willing to let his henchmen know how to do his work if a mage geeked him.

[Lady Artifice]

I exiled the Wardens to Anderfels and sacrificed Stroud in the fade. I could not allow the Wardens to be allies in Skyhold since they could still be corrupted by Corypheus. After what they did they deserved exile.

 

We'll raise an army to fight against the next blight. Rituals? They drink darkspawn blood to protect themselves. What's so difficult about that? Kill some darkspawn and collect their blood, get some volunteers and they drink it. The survivors go after the arch demon. No secret society.

 

 

Who gets control of the supply of archdemon blood? 

 

 

We need:

 

darkspawn blood

a drop or two of archdemon blood

and a little blood magic to give the whole thing the necessary oomph

 

 

 

Who's calling the shots here?

 

A Monarch? A general?

[TheKomandorShepard]

A: The actual contract was for an indenture, which isn't quite as drastic. You'd think that this would still only be done if things were about as bad as they could get (since who in their right mind trusts a Tevinter who's managed to gain Magister rank unless the situation's past the Godzilla Threshold?), but I don't think that was the case: the mages actually had a crowned head actively supporting them at the time while the Templars had no such thing. So I'm really not sure whether this means anything as far as how desperate things really were; more likely it just means that Fiona lacks solid judgement as to how bad things really are.

 

B: So he had big ambitions. Do we know if he'd thought far enough ahead to have a shot of making them reality? If he did, then why couldn't his subordinates? He didn't strike me as truly selfish, so you'd think he'd be willing to let his henchmen know how to do his work if a mage geeked him.

 

From what i heard from peoples in redcliff things in fact weren't pretty whether fiona lacked judgement mages weren't in good position anyway there.

 

Well he left chantry and divine taking army with himself pretty much i doubt he would return under same divine he would rather bring her down.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

From what i heard from peoples in redcliff things in fact weren't pretty whether fiona lacked judgement mages weren't in good position anyway there.

 

Well he left chantry and divine taking army with himself pretty much i doubt he would return under same divine he would rather bring her down.

A: I was under the impression that that was largely due to Fiona's poor judgement giving the Venatori a foothold. There was some actual damage from combat, but judging by what I can tell of the War Table quest "Delicate Negotiations" it wasn't that serious.

 

B: What makes you think he intended either? And even if I gave you this one how does this prove he could have accomplished the latter and taking down the mages?

[TheKomandorShepard]

A: I was under the impression that that was largely due to Fiona's poor judgement giving the Venatori a foothold.

 

B: What makes you think he intended either?

 

A:I doubt that venatori was one who tormented them rather templars.

 

B:Well cole and well logic why he would leave chantry because divine betrayed him just to return to her.

[ctd757]

Given the option to demolish Adamant. Seems like foreshadowing

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

A:I doubt that venatori was one who tormented them rather templars.

 

B:Well cole and well logic why he would leave chantry because divine betrayed him just to return to her.

A: The thing is that the damage Teagan claims to his property as a result of combat is so minimal (and what is there is so overwhelmingly the mages' fault) that I just don't see Fiona having any real need to accept Tevinter help. Especially since they're there by royal permission: you'd think that if things got really bad the Crown would intervene. (Especially since the Crown did intervene when the Tevinters made things that bad for everyone else.)

B: I'll give you Cole, since he'd probably know, but again: why are taking over the Chantry and submitting to its current authorities the only options? And even if he did intend to take over the Chantry (which I think you've sold me on), what evidence do we have that he stood a chance?

[TheKomandorShepard]

A: The thing is that the damage Teagan claims to his property as a result of combat is so minimal that I just don't see Fiona having any real need to accept Tevinter help. Especially since they're there by royal permission: you'd think that if things got really bad the Crown would intervene. (Especially since the Crown did intervene when the Tevinters made things that bad for everyone else.)

B: I'll give you Cole, since he'd probably know, but again: why are taking over the Chantry and submitting to its current authorities the only options? And even if he did intend to take over the Chantry (which I think you've sold me on), what evidence do we have that he stood a chance?

A:Well crown wasn't very fast about doing anything with tevinter hell inquisition had to deal with them not crown and they were stationed there when templars all they would need to do is go there and chop mages and matter would have be done.

B:Who would stop him? He had chantry army with after all and as pretty much we can see early in game templars quickly show who is top dog to the chantry and they couldn't do anything about it hell chantry couldn't do anything to Inquisition that was new organisation.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Who gets control of the supply of archdemon blood? 

 

 

We need:

 

darkspawn blood

a drop or two of archdemon blood

and a little blood magic to give the whole thing the necessary oomph

 

 

 

Who's calling the shots here?

 

A Monarch? A general?

 

Control of the supply of arch demon blood? The witch of the wilds!

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

A:Well crown wasn't very fast about doing anything with tevinter hell inquisition had to deal with them not crown and they were stationed there when templars all they would need to do is go there and chop mages and matter would have be done.

B:Who would stop him? He had chantry army with after all and as pretty much we can see early in game templars quickly show who is top dog to the chantry and they couldn't do anything about it hell chantry couldn't do anything to Inquisition that was new organisation.

A: It's far less simple than simply killing the mages. The Templars would have had to take a castle, defended not only by the mages but by the Redcliffe army (which the Tevinters threw out.) Barring very expensive siege equipment (which the Templars probably didn't have since they were still rebelling against the Chantry instead of controlling it) or red lyrium behemoths (which the Templars didn't yet have) that's only easy if whoever is defending it lets you in (or if you know of the secret passage from Origins, which the Templars don't.) As for the speed with which the Crown gets there, I don't think it's that bad: they get there too late to help, but only because the Inquisition got there faster.

B: Fair point about conquering the Chantry, and that would have solved their lyrium and funding problems, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they can take control of the mages. (Especially if this only happens after the Crown of Ferelden involved itself; the Crown doesn't have the Chantry's resources, but it's still an added complication.) Still, you're right that if Lambert went after the Chantry first this would have made the mages' lives much harder.

[TheKomandorShepard]

A: It's far less simple than simply killing the mages. The Templars have had to take a castle, defended not only by the mages but by the Redcliffe army. Barring very expensive siege equipment (which the Templars probably didn't have since they were still rebelling against the Chantry) or red lyrium behemoths (which the Templars didn't yet have) that's only easy if whoever is defending it lets you in (or if you know of the secret passage from Origins, which the Templars don't.) As for the speed with which the Crown gets there, I don't think it's that bad: they get there too late to help, but only because the Inquisition got there faster.

B: Fair point about conquering the Chantry, and that would have solved their lyrium problem, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they can take control of the mages. (Especially if this only happens after the Crown of Ferelden involved itself; the Crown doesn't have the Chantry's resources, but it's still an added complication.)

From what i know redcliffe was lost to tevinter mages and were kicked from there doubt it would took that for an army of templars also didn't templars had support from at least some nobles?

 

Doubt that ferelden would want ****** chantry off (alistair says even in da 2 even if he wanted couldn't kick out templars) if templars got chantry into their hands mages would be pretty much in tragic position.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

From what i know redcliffe was lost to tevinter mages and were kicked from there doubt it would took that for an army of templars also didn't templars had support from at least some nobles?

 

Doubt that ferelden would want ****** chantry off (alistair says even in da 2 even if he wanted couldn't kick out templars) if templars got chantry into their hands mages would be pretty much in tragic position.

Again: the Tevinters were already inside the walls. (And the moat I think Redcliffe Castle has, for that matter.) They'd easily bypassed the major obstacle(s) that the Templars would have had to deal with. And they weren't facing both the rebel mages and the Redcliffe army at once. The other nobles (if the Templars had such allies) would have been helpful, but they still would have had to work fast before the Crown could move, since barring funding from internationally large-scale organizations such as the Chantry and Inquisition the Crown is the real game-changer.

 

The other bit depends on how swiftly and how bloodlessly Lambert could have consolidated. If he managed to gain all of the Chantry's resources without too much of their power being lost, then the Crown couldn't have helped the mages any more than they could have after Origins. If there was massive resistance and several countries stopped tithes, Templar authority might have become somewhat more negotiable. But yes, I've already conceded that this would have changed things.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

All you've done is prove how self serving politicians are. All Loghain had to do was look at the history, Grey Wardens are the only ones capable of stopping Blights. Period. Loghain was just a desperate fool who wanted to keep Orelsians out of Fereldan GW or not. He didn't need to know the inner knowledge of how GWs do it and honestly I doubt he cared until he was made one and even then he just had to accept defeat.

 

Anyway, I'm done. The idea is not a good one. GWs should be watched by the Inquisition while still allowed to operate in secret. That would be the most ideal solution. They should never be tied down to a country.

 

No. There are so many things wrong with your "solution" - including politicizing an autonomous group and making it an alternative to "punishment" - that will make things even worse than they currently were. Wardens are people and thus aren't perfect, but they definitely are not inept or any less important than they were during the previous Blights.

 

EVERYTHING IS POLITICS!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Well everything that matters, anyway.

 

There is no escaping the political process no matter what you do with the Grey Wardens. Despite whatever neutrality they want to claim, the Grey Wardens have fallen victim to politics many times now, and will again even if you leave them exactly the way they are. Who's to blame for this incident or that is irrelevant, the Grey Wardens are fools for believing they can stand on their own.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

I can never hate the Wardens. They were the first thing we learned about in the Dragon Age series and the first PC was a Warden. There is no Dragon Age without Grey Wardens to me.

[gottaloveme]

I can never hate the Wardens. They were the first thing we learned about in the Dragon Age series and the first PC was a Warden. There is no Dragon Age without Grey Wardens to me.

 

I concur

[Zetrial]

Who gets control of the supply of archdemon blood?


We need:

darkspawn blood
a drop or two of archdemon blood
and a little blood magic to give the whole thing the necessary oomph



Who's calling the shots here?

A Monarch? A general?

And Lyrium, thus they are at the mercy of the Chantry and Dwarves.