326 réponses à ce sujet

[TheKomandorShepard]

From what i remember those highly talented warriors and mages are entirely demolished by inquisition recruits.Not mention pretty whole series show them being demolished by somone including darkspawn and being pretty much useless.In fact their only impressive display is in warden keep dlc and that could simple be in case because they had keep and demons on their side and it went poorly.

 

Their enormous stupidity in dai wasn't first time when we see wardens doing idiotic stuff (but they pretty much topped that here) that pretty much either went wrong or could go if not protagonist.They almost lead to destruction of thedas because of their stupidity and fanaticism.

 

Even Solas who pretty much should know more than anyone on that topic for some reason isn't big fan of grey wardens.

[Wolfen09]

you do realize that the grey warden order is basically a darkspawn tainted inquisition right?  Sadly all this stuff about clarel is very strange, the 1st warden in weisshaupt is supposed to be the highest officer in thedas, and all warden commanders are technically his subordinates....  so why did clarel not get weisshaupt word on what was going on?  Or ask for permission to do her plan?  And before you go saying the wardens were being controlled, no they were not...  only those bound to the demons were controlled by corypheus, in the last flight, those in weisshaupt have no clue wtf clarel did...  and clarel was supposed to be the vessel for the fear demon, so she was not bound or controlled....  if this is the case, why does she have the authority to try and do this?  You would think that this would be something you run by the top brass first....  If anything, the command structure has to be reformed...  as for the supposed stuff in the epilogue about going to weisshaupt... well, hopefully its not... the first warden is being controlled by someone kind of crap...

 

Wardens are needed... as of right now... we still have no idea why solas is so goddam upset, and until another way is found to deal with the blight... you're stuck with em.  otherwise its back to 400 years of sieges, death, taint, and destruction...  maybe put the wardens on a leash, limit their autonomy... maybe put them under a country's military service, but make them only fight darkspawn, hell idk... but something needs to be done about it... other than wiping them out

[AtreiyaN7]

From what i remember those highly talented warriors and mages are entirely demolished by inquisition recruits.Not mention pretty whole series show them being demolished by somone including darkspawn and being pretty much useless.In fact their only impressive display is in warden keep dlc and that could simple be in case because they had keep and demons on their side and it went poorly.

 

Their enormous stupidity in dai wasn't first time when we see wardens doing idiotic stuff (but they pretty much topped that here) that pretty much either went wrong or could go if not protagonist.They almost lead to destruction of thedas because of their stupidity and fanaticism.

 

Even Solas who pretty much should know more than anyone on that topic for some reason isn't big fan of grey wardens.

 

Yes, well it's a game - wouldn't really do if they were kicking the player's butts, would it? Let's be realistic here and separate what they do and their actual history in Thedas from concessions necessarily made for the player's ego. And let's see, if they've been consistently demolished, then who saved everyone during the First, Second, Third, Fourth, and Fifth Blights?

 

Oh, well, let's see...it certainly wasn't you.

[Farangbaa]

Wardens aren't needed. They make themselves so by making everything they do a big secret.

If all of Thedas knew how to slay an Archdemon; they would slay the Archdemon, no Wardens required. But they don't know because the Wardens like to play super secret.

Their only right of existence stems from their secrecy. Not from the Blights, not from Archdemons. It's just the secrecy, nothing more.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Yes, well it's a game - wouldn't really do if they were kicking the player's butts, would it? Let's be realistic here and separate what they do and their actual history in Thedas from concessions necessarily made for the player's ego. And let's see, if they've been consistently demolished, then who saved everyone during the First, Second, Third, Fourth, and Fifth Blights?

 

Oh, well, let's see...it certainly wasn't you.

"Fifth Blights"

The warden (so yes it was me) because from what i remember wardens didn't do crap s/he pretty much had to do all job himself/herself in fact they were demolished by darkspawn as far i remember same in daa where still the warden had to do all job because wardens couldn't handle darkspawn and FW didn't even bother to send anyone .

 

In fact pretty much i bet countries had much bigger contribution in fighting with blight when grey wardens was just necessary to kill archdemon.

[Andraste Take the Wheel]

If the whole world had knowledge of things like the Joining, I can easily see it being abused. During a Blight, leaders would probably try to make everyone and their dog a Warden in order to hurl as many people at the Archdemon as possible, effectively killing a huge chunk of the population anyway, even before you actually fight anything. Wardens select from people they think are worthy or those who have nothing more to lose, as it should be. The Joining is a death sentence. Applying it to an army would do no one any good.

[Hazegurl]

I like Solas and he has some very sound arguments. Loved his argument with IB about the Qun. But he never has solutions to any of the things he complain about.

 

Solas: "I hate wardens!"

Anyone: "How else can we combat the Blight?"

Solas: "They suck!"

 

Not a very compelling argument, DW.

 

And if he thinks GWs are corrupt just wait until folks in Tevinter get a hold of that GW knowledge the OP seems eager to want to spread around.  Once that knowledge is lost after a few hundred years, as it will be by releasing it. Some Magisters will be using the taint to locate an Old God. Good luck with that.

[Broganisity]

To be a little serious, They were tricked into doing something horrible, yes, but what they do normally is horrible. I sincerely doubt the majority of Thedas wants to know that they need to use crap tons of Blood Magic, separate themselves from their loved ones and self Ghoul-ification in order to fight a tainted dragon that requires you to die in order to slay it.

 

How many people would volunteer knowing what The Joining is?

 

"Hey bruh, we need you to ingest this concoction of demon dragon blood, darkspawn blood, and apple juice...the apple juice makes it go down easier. It might kill you outright but if it doesn't don't worry: it'll kill you between ten to thirty years. Side effects include gradual loss of sanity, ghoul-ification, and the inability to sleep comfortably due to the constant screaming of an angry darkspawn dragon monstrosity that may or may not have been a god at one point...by the way it kills your sperm count. A lot. "

 

and then:

"Hey bruh? Now that you're a Grey Warden, you can't be near your family because you need to ready in case a Blight comes. So you gotta train a lot, recruit more people, and oh by the way? If there is an Archdemon, it can only be killed by someone like you because it moves from Darkspawn to Darkspawn because they have no souls, so...yeah...if you kill it? Your soul gets obliterated."

Also:

"Hey bruh, you've been with us for awhile...remember those dreams? They've come back huh? Welp! You're gonna become a Ghoul soon. So you can either wait for it to take over you so you can be a senseless killing machine or go down to the Deep Roads and kill a crap ton of Darkspawn until you die."

 

How many of you would sacrifice everything you love in order to save it?

 

The Grey Wardens separated themselves from everything they loved because they knew they had to dedicate themselves to fighting the Darkspawn threat, in a way no one else would or could.

 

Who else can unite the various peoples of Thedas? Ferelden? Tevinter? Orzammar? The Chantry? The Qun? Mabari? What do they have in common? Very few things, and even those differ...but they all have the Grey Wardens.

[Farangbaa]

How else combat the blights?

Well, we have people drink some darkspawn blood and then kill the archdemon. The only reason that's not possible is that the Wardens don't tell anyone that's how it's done.

They make themselves necessary.

[AtreiyaN7]

"Fifth Blights"

The warden (so yes it was me) because from what i remember wardens didn't do crap s/he pretty much had to do all job himself/herself in fact they were demolished by darkspawn as far i remember same in daa where still the warden had to do all job because wardens couldn't handle darkspawn and FW didn't even bother to send anyone .

 

In fact pretty much i bet countries had much bigger contribution in fighting with blight when grey wardens was just necessary to kill archdemon.

 

Yes, again, let's separate the Wardens from the player, shall we? Although I guess you're happy enough to take credit when you're the Warden and only then? You'll just ignore the rest of Thedan history, right? The only reason the Fifth Blight didn't end in disaster is because of a handful of Wardens, specifically the two (Alistair and the HoF) who managed to pull together a bunch of disparate groups based on ancient treaties (and running around and doing scutwork for groups like the Dalish, the dwarves, etc.). I don't recall Loghain or anyone else doing much of anything about the darkspawn or anyone else doing anything until the HoF and Alistair got everything sorted out. And no, it wasn't you at all during the First, Second, Third, and Fourth Blights, was it? But yes, let's split hairs there.

[Farangbaa]

To be a little serious, They were tricked into doing something horrible, yes, but what they do normally is horrible. I sincerely doubt the majority of Thedas wants to know that they need to use crap tons of Blood Magic, separate themselves from their loved ones and self Ghoul-ification in order to fight a tainted dragon that requires you to die in order to slay it.
 
How many people would volunteer knowing what The Joining is?
 
"Hey bruh, we need you to ingest this concoction of demon dragon blood, darkspawn blood, and apple juice...the apple juice makes it go down easier. It might kill you outright but if it doesn't don't worry: it'll kill you between ten to thirty years. Side effects include gradual loss of sanity, ghoul-ification, and the inability to sleep comfortably due to the constant screaming of an angry darkspawn dragon monstrosity that may or may not have been a god at one point...by the way it kills your sperm count. A lot. "
 
and then:

"Hey bruh? Now that you're a Grey Warden, you can't be near your family because you need to ready in case a Blight comes. So you gotta train a lot, recruit more people, and oh by the way? If there is an Archdemon, it can only be killed by someone like you because it moves from Darkspawn to Darkspawn because they have no souls, so...yeah...if you kill it? Your soul gets obliterated."

Also:

"Hey bruh, you've been with us for awhile...remember those dreams? They've come back huh? Welp! You're gonna become a Ghoul soon. So you can either wait for it to take over you so you can be a senseless killing machine or go down to the Deep Roads and kill a crap ton of Darkspawn until you die."
 
The Grey Wardens separated themselves from everything they loved because they knew they had to dedicate themselves to fighting the Darkspawn threat, in a way no one else would or could. Who else can unite the various peoples of Thedas? Ferelden? Orzammar? The Chantry? The Qun? Mabari?

Oh come on. Train a lot? My Warden from DA:O had exactly zero days of training and slew the Archdemon like it was a puppy.

And the question of how many people would join if they knew that the ritual was is irrelevant, if you ask me. Soldiers die, there's enough people in the army. If the world's at stake plenty people will gladly gamble their life in a chance to save the world.

[Hazegurl]

If anything the Fifth Blight teaches us that political BS takes top priority even during a Blight. Which is why Wardens not being tied down to any one country is a good thing.

 

Psychevore, Don't all Wardens in DAO come from a  fighting background? Duncan wanted my Cousland because his fighting skills were known.

 

And let's face it. Our Wardens were special and unique snowflakes. You can't compare them to random soldier #35

 

[Lady Artifice]

It has to be a secret.

 

The reasons the Wardens need secrets are plentiful, but some of the most important are:

 

1: The potential for world rulers to exploit the order if they had the control to do so.

 

2. They rely on recruiting/conscripting the best, which happens a lot more often if the best people don't know it's a death sentence, whether immediate or delayed. Just as importantly, there's a limited supply of Archdemon blood available. They have to save it for the best regardless of class, race, or position. 

 

Militaries can too easily be another political game. A monarch can decide only humans can join the order, or that they should only be drawn from the younger children of the nobility, or the other way around (with nobles becoming off limits). 

 

I don't fancy the idea of passing up on the next Garahel or Cousland, personally. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

Yes, again, let's separate the Wardens from the player, shall we? Although I guess you're happy enough to take credit when you're the Warden and only then? You'll just ignore the rest of Thedan history, right? The only reason the Fifth Blight didn't end in disaster is because of a handful of Wardens, specifically the two (Alistair and the HoF) who managed to pull together a bunch of disparate groups based on ancient treaties (and running around and doing scutwork for groups like the Dalish, the dwarves, etc.). I don't recall Loghain or anyone else doing much of anything about the darkspawn or anyone else doing anything until the HoF and Alistair got everything sorted out. And no, it wasn't you at all during the First, Second, Third, and Fourth Blights, was it? But yes, let's split hairs there.

Now you just refuse to read what i have said.Read again i did separated wardens from the player they died entirely demolished i said that already not only by pc or pc organisation but pretty much by darkspawn and it was more than once.

 

And no still it weren't grey wardens it was simple a group of adventurers that united country (1 country and well 1 city plus some minor groups) and defeated blight the warden (even if he supoorts them and we can not to do so) had pretty much nothing common with grey warden order besides perhaps taint neither grey warden order helped during fifth blight as far we got single one but it is like saying that orlais sent help because we had leliana in our party. Neither pretty much treaties were any good because it only usefulness was it provided you access to orzammar pretty much every potential ally can tell you "sorry we have own problems so you can go screw yourself with your treaties"  ending on that the warden instead using treaties is gathering favors from organizations.

 

Pretty much Loghain and rest of ferelden kicked out wardens because their own stupidity as loghain have no idea for some reason no one outside wardens have knowledge that only grey wardens can kill archdemon making appear to the world as nothing more than guys that are specialized to fight with certain enemy.And yes ferelden was fighting with darkspawn (pretty much all you need to do is listen to nobles in tavern) but was also in-fighting thanks to loghain.

 

As i said more job is done by countries person with taint is only necessary to kill archdemon fith blight shows that despite no grey warden order participation blight was defeated and can be defeated as long we have someone with taint to deal with archdemon.

[Kulyok]

When the recipe of Joining and other Grey Warden lore is known to scholars and mages of every nation and there're flasks of Archdemon blood from Denerim in every treasury and the College of Enchanters, I really don't see any need for Grey Wardens. Each Blight they would only need one alive male Warden volunteer. And someone like Morrigan with a sexy ritual. Or several tainted guys with swords ready to deliver the killing blow.

 

I don't think we'll ever see another Blight again, though. The developers would likely get more creative.

 

 

The Fifth Blight was ended without the Wardens, actually. By a random stranger who never thought they'd be a Warden. All the other Wardens retreated and left Ferelden to its own devices. 

[GenericEnemy]

The Grey Wardens are an entity that, during a Blight, is above petty politics. Just having tainted soldiers under every nation's banner would kill the point. 

 

Just look at Last Flight. Do you really believe Garahel could have rallied nations and people from every corner behind him to fight the massive friggin darkspawn army overwhelming northern Thedas if he was just some random Blighted soldier from the Free Marches? I don't think so. 

[AtreiyaN7]

Now you just refuse to read what i have said.Read again i did separated wardens from the player they died entirely demolished i said that already not only by pc or pc organisation but pretty much by darkspawn and it was more than once.

 

And no still it weren't grey wardens it was simple a group of adventurers that united country (1 country and well 1 city plus some minor groups) and defeated blight the warden (even if he supoorts them and we can not to do so) had pretty much nothing common with grey warden order besides perhaps taint neither grey warden helped during fith blight as far we got single one but it is like saying that orlais send help because we had leliana in our party. Neither pretty much treaties were any good because it only usefulness was it provided you access to orzammar pretty much every potential ally can tell you "sorry we have own problems so you can go screw yourself with your treaties" pretty much ending on that the warden instead using treaties is gathering favors from organizations.

 

Pretty much Loghain and rest of ferelden kicked out wardens because their own stupidity as loghain pretty much everyone for some reason no one outside wardens have knowledge that only grey wardens can kill archdemon making appear to the world as nothing more than guys that are specialized to fight with certain enemy.And yes ferelden was fighting with darkspawn (pretty much all you need to do is listen to nobles in tavern) but also in-fighting thanks to loghain.

 

As i said more job is done by countries person with taint is only necessary to kill archdemon fith blight shows that despite no grey warden order participation blight was defeated and can be defeated as long we have someone with taint to deal with archdemon.

 

The HoF is a Warden because he/she underwent the Joining, and Alistair was a Warden well before the HoF became one. That's the end of it - it was not just some random group of adventurers. Oh, and it was Loghain's stupid, pathological hatred of Orlesians and his delusions about Orlesian Wardens being political puppets of the Orlesian Empire that certainly contributed to the problems during the Fifth Blight. Maybe you read Warden-Constable Blackwall's letter (and I mean the real Blackwall's letter) wherein he mentions the Ferelden/Loghain issue?

 

And do tell me how those Ferelden forces who had no Blight resistance were doing, eh? Because it sounded to me like they weren't doing so hot. Meanwhile, there was a civil war going on and Ferelden was completely divided until the Landsmeet thanks to Loghain. As for your repeatedly trying to claim that the Wardens were demolished by the darkspawn, maybe you're forgetting their motto: "In Peace, Vigilance. In War, Victory. In Death, Sacrifice."

 

It's to be expected that Wardens are the ones who willtake a pretty severe hit during any Blight, and that is because they are the ones who serve as an aegis for the rest of the bloody world. They understand sacrifice and the cost of what they have to do, including the fact that there's probably going to be a high personal cost to them. But let's jump back to your claim that the nobles were all kicking darkspawn butt. Now if all the nobles and Loghain were doing such a great job of things, then explain to me (and you had better be a really good explanation) why the darkspawn managed to pour into Denerim. I think maybe those nobles and Loghain weren't really doing all that amazing of a job in defending bloody Ferelden against the darkspawn after all.

[Lady Artifice]

 Each Blight they would only need one alive male Warden volunteer. And someone like Morrigan with a sexy ritual. Or several tainted guys with swords ready to deliver the killing blow.

 

It's been that simple once.

 

And that was luck as much as anything. 

[Farangbaa]

It has to be a secret.
 
The reasons the Wardens need secrets are plentiful, but some of the most important are:
 
1: The potential for world rulers to exploit the order if they had the control to do so.
 
2. They rely on recruiting/conscripting the best, which happens a lot more often if the best people don't know it's a death sentence, whether immediate or delayed. Just as importantly, there's a limited supply of Archdemon blood available. They have to save it for the best regardless of class, race, or position. 
 
Militaries can too easily be another political game. A monarch can decide only humans can join the order, or that they should only be drawn from the younger children of the nobility, or the other way around (with nobles becoming off limits). 
 
I don't fancy the idea of passing up on the next Garahel or Cousland, personally.

Their secrecy is why no one trusts them with anything. Their secrecy is why someone like Loghain can think he'd be able to defeat the darkspawn without the Wardens.

Not that anyone should trust them anyway. They promised the Elves to fight for their freedom once they had slain the Archdemon, during the first blight. 4 blights further and nothing has changed.

[Master Warder Z_]

The elf situation wasn't going to be resolved with a war.

The Warden's realized that, not to mention after the First Blight and the creation of the Dales Andraste's promise was honored.

Dalish inaction in the next blight however likely didn't endear the country with the Wardens.

Also were is it even mentioned the Wardens would fight for elves? That's going to violate their political neutrality.

[Farangbaa]

The elf situation wasn't going to be resolved with a war.

The Warden's realized that, not to mention after the First Blight and the creation of the Dales Andraste's promise was honored.

Dalish inaction in the next blight however likely didn't endear the country with the Wardens.

Also were is it even mentioned the Wardens would fight for elves? That's going to violate their political neutrality.

http://dragonage.wik...ki/First_Blight

[Lady Artifice]

Their secrecy is why no one trusts them with anything. Their secrecy is why someone like Loghain can think he'd be able to defeat the darkspawn without the Wardens.

Not that anyone should trust them anyway. They promised the Elves to fight for their freedom once they had slain the Archdemon, during the first blight. 4 blights further and nothing has changed.

 

This we can agree on, but it doesn't effect whether or not they (and their secrets) are necessary in the slightest. 

 

Certainly, no one trusts them, but do you honestly suggest that telling all of Thedas about the use of blood magic in every joining ritual is going to change that for the better? 

 

Or, alternatively, how much do you like the idea of the order being subject to the whims of someone like Cailan? 

[TheKomandorShepard]

The HoF is a Warden because he/she underwent the Joining, and Alistair was a Warden well before the HoF became one. That's the end of it - it was not just some random group of adventurers. Oh, and it was Loghain's stupid, pathological hatred of Orlesians and his delusions about Orlesian Wardens being political puppets of the Orlesian Empire that certainly contributed to the problems during the Fifth Blight. Maybe you read Warden-Constable Blackwall's letter (and I mean the real Blackwall's letter) wherein he mentions the Ferelden/Loghain issue?

 

And do tell me how those Fereldens forces who had no Blight resistance were doing, eh? Because it sounded to me like they weren't doing so hot. Meanwhile, there was a civil war going on and Ferelden was completely divided until the Landsmeet thanks to Loghain. As for your repeatedly trying to claim that the Wardens were demolished by the darkspawn, maybe you're forgetting their motto: "In Peace, Vigilance. In War, Victory. In Death, Sacrifice."

 

It's to be expected that Wardens are the ones who willtake a pretty severe hit during any Blight, and that is because they are the ones who serve as an aegis for the rest of the bloody world. They understand sacrifice and the cost of what they have to do, including the fact that there's probably going to be a high personal cost to them. But let's jump back to your claim that the nobles were all kicking darkspawn butt. Now if all the nobles and Loghain were doing such a great job of things, then explain to me (and you had better be a really good explanation) why the darkspawn managed to pour into Denerim. I think maybe those nobles and Loghain weren't really doing all that amazing of a job in defending bloody Ferelden against the darkspawn after all.

Joining don't make you grey warden it makes you tainted you aren't involved in fact in any way with grey warden order in dao so yes the warden group was just random group of adventures that went on quest to stop blight... As i said grey wardens screwd themselves making themselves look like nothing more than mooks to hunt darkspawn and this is pretty much how whole world sees them.

 

As i said loghain and Teagan divided ferelden creating civil war in that without the warden loghain would pretty much win civil war but still sadly would lose with blight without someone who is tainted because archdemon can be killed only by tainted person.Still grey warden order wasn't part of defating blight in anyway only their role was being killed by darkspawn  so you can throw your quote as clarel did it means nothing.

 

Clarel and her wardens yeah...

Do i have to mention that pretty much almost all ferelden forces plus that warden gathered were with the warden the moment darkspawn attacked denerim because archdemon tricked them into thinking he tried to attack redcliff.Also i never said they were doing great job because mentioned civil war but they were doing much better job than grey warden order who well was killed and did nothing and yet blight was defated without their help. 

 

 

The Grey Wardens are an entity that, during a Blight, is above petty politics. Just having tainted soldiers under every nation's banner would kill the point. 

 

Just look at Last Flight. Do you really believe Garahel could have rallied nations and people from every corner behind him to fight the massive friggin darkspawn army overwhelming northern Thedas if he was just some random Blighted soldier from the Free Marches? I don't think so. 

 

Rly because from what i saw Loghain had no problem with kicking wardens from ferelden same for King Arland and Inquisitor.Also as we saw they are on onther mercy treaties were almost useless during fifth blight and the warden had to gain their loyalty than force them to fight blight. Pretty much some countries flat refused to help with blights for example orlais , tevinter or dales and wardens couldn't do crap.  

[SporkFu]

Their secrecy is why no one trusts them with anything. Their secrecy is why someone like Loghain can think he'd be able to defeat the darkspawn without the Wardens.

Not that anyone should trust them anyway. They promised the Elves to fight for their freedom once they had slain the Archdemon, during the first blight. 4 blights further and nothing has changed.

because Loghain was totally trustworthy and not a paranoid and power-hungry egomaniac at all, what with poisoning the arl of redcliffe and holding his own daughter, the queen of Fereldan, prisoner in her own castle. 

 

I thought the grey wardens were held in fairly high regard by a lot of people. Certainly the elves/werewolves, dwarves, mages/templars, and whoever else were willing to honor treaties that hadn't been invoked for four-hundred years on the claim of a couple of nobodies... but, maybe that's just me. 

[Farangbaa]

This we can agree on, but it doesn't effect whether or not they (and their secrets) are necessary in the slightest. 
 
Certainly, no one trusts them, but do you honestly suggest that telling all of Thedas about the use of blood magic in every joining ritual is going to change that for the better? 
 
Or, alternatively, how much do you like the idea of the order being subject to the whims of someone like Cailan?

I'd leave the blood magic part out but I see no harm in sharing why only they can kill the archdemom.

And didn't Cailan get them killed? (according to Loghain supporters)