326 réponses à ce sujet

[Hazegurl]

Ah, okay I just read where a special darkspawn can be magically treated.  It's also interesting that a recruit must have a certain type of mind set to increase the success of the Joining.  It makes me wonder what that special darkspawn is? Is it the ones capable of speech if the Architect gets his hands on them?

[teh DRUMPf!!]

So, let's pretend that the Grey Wardens are disbanded.  A thousand years pass, and no blight. And then an archdemon arises.
 
1. By then everyone will assume that the idea that only a tainted warrior can kill the archdemon is a "legend."
2. The formula for the potion will probably be lost by then.
3. Even if they have the formula, who the heck would be stupid enough to drink darkspawn blood on the basis of a "legend."
4. The archdemon blood needed for the potion will be long gone because no one thought it important enough to preserve it.

 
Slippery-slope fallacy. 1-4 do not strictly logically follow from [Wardens being disbanded].

 

I could just as easily say that the Wardens' secrets will be discovered by the rulers of Thedas, and they will use that information to end the blights as a normal military should be able to, and thus none of 1-4 will happen.

 

Now, I recognize that it could not go as I hope. However, as I said, I believe it is worth the risk, or rather, the Wardens are not really worth the trouble of keeping around as an "Order." Slaying the Archdemons during the Blights is all well and good (although, if the nations of Thedas were equipped with the knowledge the 'Wardens are withholding from them, blights may actually become less deadly as a result of better-prepared nations and militaries), but in the many, many years between those blights, they routinely get up to no good and hide behind telling us: "we're heroes, and you need us." All we need to make them obsolete is to learning how to perform the Joining and why it's necessary. Then, we will have a chance at ending the blights in a far, far more practical way.

 

Oh, and while we are waiting for a Blight, who is going to keep the darkspawn population in check? Certianly not the beleagured Deep Roads dwarves who are slowly dying off, and I'd be willing to bet the that healthy and untainted will run rather than risk being tainted in a daily battle with darkspawn. Thus the horde will grow and grow finding the untainted gods will be a surer thing.

 
The Grey Wardens probably do not even make a dent the Darkspawn's population.

 

Nope, you need Archdemon blood. It's a mix of darkspawn blood and Archdemon blood. Thom was sent to do the very same task the Warden had to do in DAO. Collect a vial of darkspawn blood. Which would then be mixed with the Archdemon blood, however it is they do it, and then drunk by the recruit. if all it takes is regular darkspawn blood then Anders could have simply recommended Carver or Bethany drink the blood. It doesn't work that way, which is why they needed to find Wardens to do it right

 
Well then the Archdemon apparently has a supply worth of centuries, given the Wardens' ability to function that long between one dead Old God and the next.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Whose government? There are more than one. Yet the Blight could hit anywhere at anytime which brings up the issue posted pages ago about governments focuing on political bs over aiding a possible rival nation.

 

The Grey Wardens do not solve that problem, anyway. Loghain identified them as a threat from Orlais and thus rejected them. Also, Wardens can be exiled from any nation as they were in Fereldan for a very long time. Sure, some nations may not use the knowledge wisely, but it's worth it for any one of them that does IMO.

 

Also, most governments take matters of national security very seriously. A little too much so, if anything. You think Loghain would have done what he did if he knew about the Wardens? I sure don't. He did not discard the Archdemon blood and kept Riordan alive and interrogated for a reason. He wanted to know what the big deal with them was.

[MisterJB]

Yeah, when you really think about it, it is completely unnecessary for a single order to religiously guard the secrets on how to end Blights.

All it would take would be a constant but small contingent on Wardens in each nation who don't do anything but pay attention to shifts in the Darkspawn hivemind and if a Blight began, each nation would be able to produce as many warriors they felt were necessary to kill the Archdemon.

 

But it is a sacrifice we have to make for the sake of the writing. An order of monster slayer badasses who sacrifice everything for an ungrateful world is just much more interesting.

[Zarro-Morningstar]

Considering that I love my Warden-Queen, Velanna, Oghren, Sigrun, Anders, Alistair, and Nathaniel...I'd rather not see the Order wiped out. Although once the HOF hopefully finds the cure to the calling...then maybe, considering I would want my warden to finally rule with Alistair rather than have her controlled by Bioware.

[Hazegurl]

The Grey Wardens do not solve that problem, anyway. Loghain identified them as a threat from Orlais and thus rejected them. Also, Wardens can be exiled from any nation as they were in Fereldan for a very long time. Sure, some nations may not use the knowledge wisely, but it's worth it for any one of them that does IMO.

 

Also, most governments take matters of national security very seriously. A little too much so, if anything. You think Loghain would have done what he did if he knew about the Wardens? I sure don't. He did not discard the Archdemon blood and kept Riordan alive and interrogated for a reason. He wanted to know what the big deal with them was.

All you've done is prove how self serving politicians are. All Loghain had to do was look at the history, Grey Wardens are the only ones capable of stopping Blights. Period. Loghain was just a desperate fool who wanted to keep Orelsians out of Fereldan GW or not. He didn't need to know the inner knowledge of how GWs do it and honestly I doubt he cared until he was made one and even then he just had to accept defeat.

 

Anyway, I'm done. The idea is not a good one. GWs should be watched by the Inquisition while still allowed to operate in secret. That would be the most ideal solution. They should never be tied down to a country.

[Xetykins]

They should just give wardens automatic and full control all over the countries in times of Blights. Then Loghain's foolishness will not happen again. The prime example when politics and stupidity interferes with what's really immediate. Valid only til the last of the old gods are dead.

[Dragonzzilla]

I think Bioware done something right, in order to create debates like this.

[Rekkampum]

No. There are so many things wrong with your "solution" - including politicizing an autonomous group and making it an alternative to "punishment" - that will make things even worse than they currently were. Wardens are people and thus aren't perfect, but they definitely are not inept or any less important than they were during the previous Blights.

 

And the Cerberus comparison is absolutely terrible.

[TheKomandorShepard]

They should just give wardens automatic and full control all over the countries in times of Blights. Then Loghain's foolishness will not happen again. The prime example when politics and stupidity interferes with what's really immediate. Valid only til the last of the old gods are dead.

Good luck with that they would be massacred by country pretty much grey wardens already are on mercy if country won't help (and it was in case far more than once) they can't do crap about it. In fact if every country had own grey wardens situation in ferelden wouldn't have place hell even their stupitidy with archdemon secret caused loghain to kick them out his country.

 

Loghain wasn't in any way foolish because in fact he had very good concerns as in fact it wouldn't be first time orlais would take over other country after the blight not mention grey wardens did nothing absolutely nothing to prove or even point in direction they are in fact necessary to end blight.

 

As far grey wardens are dangerous order of foolish fanatics that have no limits where they will go and are often excused by law where their stupidity lead to we could see in dai where they almost lead to thedas destruction.

[In Exile]

The Grey Wardens do not solve that problem, anyway. Loghain identified them as a threat from Orlais and thus rejected them. Also, Wardens can be exiled from any nation as they were in Fereldan for a very long time. Sure, some nations may not use the knowledge wisely, but it's worth it for any one of them that does IMO.

Also, most governments take matters of national security very seriously. A little too much so, if anything. You think Loghain would have done what he did if he knew about the Wardens? I sure don't. He did not discard the Archdemon blood and kept Riordan alive and interrogated for a reason. He wanted to know what the big deal with them was.

The other unrealistic thing is these archaic treaties getting any pull. They're just paper. The only binding force they have is the willingness of the signatory to be bound by it.

[Wolfen09]

The Grey Wardens do not solve that problem, anyway. Loghain identified them as a threat from Orlais and thus rejected them. Also, Wardens can be exiled from any nation as they were in Fereldan for a very long time. Sure, some nations may not use the knowledge wisely, but it's worth it for any one of them that does IMO.

 

Also, most governments take matters of national security very seriously. A little too much so, if anything. You think Loghain would have done what he did if he knew about the Wardens? I sure don't. He did not discard the Archdemon blood and kept Riordan alive and interrogated for a reason. He wanted to know what the big deal with them was.

 

first of all, loghain isnt necessarily right in this case...  and nobody is saying the wardens are perfect, but they are necessary, they like the chantry, templars, the circle and everything else in this damn universe needs to be fixed from within... so you might as well add those into the discussion as well

 

btw, i despise aaron rodgers... favre forever

[Xetykins]

Good luck with that they would be massacred by country pretty much grey wardens already are on mercy if country won't help (and it was in case far more than once) they can't do crap about it. In fact if every country had own grey wardens situation in ferelden wouldn't have place hell even their stupitidy with archdemon secret caused loghain to kick them out his country.
 
Loghain wasn't in any way foolish because in fact he had very good concerns as in fact it wouldn't be first time orlais would take over other country after the blight not mention grey wardens did nothing absolutely nothing to prove or even point in direction they are in fact necessary to end .

Have you played origins? I mean my warden did end the blight. Proof enough? :-)

[TheKomandorShepard]

Have you played origins? I mean my warden did end the blight. Proof enough? :-)

I explained that 1000 times here your warden isn't grey warden order and don't have anything to do with them until daa.In dao all you are is leader of independent group of adventurers with goal to stop blight.

 

Grey warden order did pretty much nothing and had no part in fifth blight.

[Ynqve]

Yeah, hate on the wardens all you want but they're necessary. You can argue that they need new leadership and reform, but the order has to exist. Handing warden secrets out like candy and reducing them to tainted soldiers in the regular armies won't work (or at least not as effectively). The fact that they're supposed to be politically neutral is their biggest asset after the taint. We all saw how the nobility reacted in Ferelden, imagine the same thing happening in Orlais. Do you honestly think the nobles would put their stupid games aside and band together to save the country? Or do you think they would "accidentally" delay their troops to certain regions because it would benefit their own position in the Game? My money is on the last one.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Yeah, hate on the wardens all you want but they're necessary. You can argue that they need new leadership and reform, but the order has to exist. Handing warden secrets out like candy and reducing them to tainted soldiers in the regular armies won't work (or at least not as effectively). The fact that they're supposed to be politically neutral is their biggest asset after the taint. We all saw how the nobility reacted in Ferelden, imagine the same thing happening in Orlais. Do you honestly think the nobles would put their stupid games aside and band together to save the country? Or do you think they would "accidentally" delay their troops to certain regions because it would benefit their own position in the Game? My money is on the last one.

Grey wardens won't change that in any way as shown if someone refuse provide help they can't do anything they are on their mercy it was already in case many times that country/nobles refused help with blight and wardens couldn't do anything about it.

[Augustei]

first of all, loghain isnt necessarily right in this case...  and nobody is saying the wardens are perfect, but they are necessary, they like the chantry, templars, the circle and everything else in this damn universe needs to be fixed from within... so you might as well add those into the discussion as well

 

btw, i despise aaron rodgers... favre forever

Most people don't know why they're necessary though beyonds the Wardens just saying that

[Xetykins]

I explained that 1000 times here your warden isn't grey warden order and don't have anything to do with them until daa.In dao all you are is leader of independent group of adventurers with goal to stop blight.
 
Grey warden order did pretty much nothing and had no part in fifth blight.

Thats your own take on things. My warden is a member of the grey warden order. Are you going to dispute that?

[TheKomandorShepard]

Thats your own take on things. My warden is a member of the grey warden order. Are you going to dispute that?

Yes, you can be pro-wardens warden still won't change fact you were nothing more than what i have said.You were no taking orders from wardens , you had no contact with them , you had no help from wardens and in the end you didn't even had their approval as in da 2 no matter what the warden actions were condemned by order.

 

So practically the warden crusade against blight was his/her own idea and his/her own doing without any support from order.

[SporkFu]

Yeah, but... I mean... come on, man. The other Wardens were thousands of miles away, on foot. By the time they contacted the other Wardens and heard back from them, there'd be nothing left of Fereldan. I think the HoF and Alistair were doing what Duncan would've wanted them to do. which is as close as they were ever gonna get to having Warden endorsement. Besides, Riordan approved, or seemed to, and he was the senior Warden in at the time they met him right?... err, unless Loghain was older and you recruited him. Whatever. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

Yeah, but... I mean... come on, man. The other Wardens were thousands of miles away, on foot. By the time they contacted the other Wardens and heard back from them, there'd be nothing left of Fereldan. I think the HoF and Alistair were doing what Duncan would've wanted them to do. which is as close as they were ever gonna get to having Warden endorsement. Besides, Riordan approved, or seemed to, and he was the senior Warden in at the time they met him right?... err, unless loghain was older and you recruited him. Whatever. 

Doesn't matter what warden did wasn't initiative or organized action of grey warden order rather tan simple idea than 1 individual came up with and was acting outside anyones authority.Pretty much making it nothing more than independent group of adventurers with stoping blight as goal not organized action of grey warden order.

 

In the end as i said grey warden order didn't do jack as warden didn't worked under their authority niether s/he had their approval.

 

As i said the wole thing was warden own idea and his own doing not order as whole.

[Xetykins]

Yes, you can be pro-wardens warden still won't change fact you were nothing more than what i have said.You were no taking orders from wardens , you had no contact with them , you had no help from wardens and in the end you didn't even had their approval as in da 2 no matter what the warden actions were condemned by order.
 
So practically the warden crusade against blight was his/her own idea and his/her own doing without any support from order.

You can be anti-warden too but it does not change the fact that you are doing warden work during the blight. Used warden treaties, used the order's name to use those treaties, worked with a grey warden, and depending on your choices pour poison down loghain's throat, killed the archdemon and died with your soul shattered. No matter how you apologize for not liking the wardens, you ARE a warden. You cant just change the lore just cuz you wished so.

[TheKomandorShepard]

You can be anti-warden too but it does not change the fact that you are doing warden work during the blight. Used warden treaties, used the order's name to use those treaties, worked with a grey warden, and depending on your choices pour poison down loghain's throat, killed the archdemon and died with your soul shattered. No matter how you apologize for not liking the wardens, you ARE a warden. You cant just change the lore just cuz you wished so.

Oh so leliana is grey warden member then same for morrigan and sten because they were doing something that wardens do?

As i said the warden is single individual that came up idea stoping blight s/he was working outside wardens authority.

So it was independent individual operation not grey warden order operation like it or not but the warden didn't had anything to do with grey warden order because s/he was acting outside it authority and by that making that as i said above single individual acting on his/her own whim.

[Xetykins]

Oh so leliana is grey warden member then same for morrigan and sten because they were doing something that wardens do?
As i said the warden is single individual that came up idea stoping blight s/he was working outside wardens authority.
So it was independent individual operation not grey warden order operation like it or not but the warden didn't had anything to do with grey warden order because s/he was acting outside it authority and by that making that as i said above single individual acting on his/her own whim.

Did Lelianna and the rest of your crew go through the joining? No? Then ofc not. I really dont know if i should take you seriously at this point. You should really try to understand what makes a warden.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Did Lelianna and the rest of your crew go through the joining? No? Then ofc not. I really dont know if i should take you seriously at this point. You should really try to understand what makes a warden.

As i said many joining means nothing you become tainted individual (call it grey warden if you want) but it doesn't in any way say you are grey warden order member and you are acting under it authority (Anders , Alistair if king or drunk, and the warden).
.

And as i said even if you were pro-warden you didn't acted under grey warden order authority your little operation wasn't even approved or known to grey warden order it was nothing more than single individual idea and in fact as i said was condemned by order making that not grey wardens operation only making it the warden operation...

 

So no dealing with fifth blight isn't something that grey wardens order can take merit only the warden because it was his operation not order operation.

 

God it is like talking to small child if policeman solves crime acting on their own without police permission doesn't mean police had part in that only that single individual.