256 réponses à ce sujet

[Asakti]

While the acceptance of trans people by the Qun (the whole "Aqun-Athlok" thing) is awesome...it is rather surprising to me.  Considering the importance of role, and the fact that gender/sex plays a big part in those roles...I find it intriguing that the Qun is so open (from what Bull says) regarding the issue.

 

Would it be something that the Tamassrans would notice and pick up on?  Would a FtM Aqun-Athlok be allowed to serve in the Antaam?  Or a MtF the Tamassrans?  Bull says that Krem would be treated the same as any 'other' man...but I just wonder how it all works in practice.

[katerinafm]

When you think about how they want to take advantage of everything and don't let anything/anyone go to waste, it doesn't sound that surprising. As the kids grow up they probably notice female and males that are better in roles that are opposite to what the Qun gives them and so they use the Aqun-Athlok angle.

[In Exile]

The Qun is all about the "true" identity and role of people. That they would have a less rigid notion of gender even as they have a very inflexible view of gender roles is not surprising.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I actually think it is a retcon. Sten says the Tamassrans determine what you'll be when you are born or early in childhood, before the child would think about this kind of stuff. There are a few things that The Iron Bull says that goes against what devs or previous characters said prior to Inquisition. 

[Fiddles dee dee]

I think Krem should get a DLC and we find out.

 

The rigidity of roles seems to link with birth so in a sense it would not make sense for Krem to be accepted. But the Qun is designed for placement/position or job/occupations - these have little to no baring on personal identity (possibly) and that might be why Krem is accepted. Also it's worth considering that Krem is accepted by Bull not necessarily the Qun.

[Nefla]

I actually think it is a retcon. Sten says the Tamassrans determine what you'll be when you are born or early in childhood, before the child would think about this kind of stuff. There are a few things that The Iron Bull says that goes against what devs or previous characters said prior to Inquisition. 

I prefer to think Bull is in denial and lying about all things Qun

[Laughing_Man]

I actually think it is a retcon. Sten says the Tamassrans determine what you'll be when you are born or early in childhood, before the child would think about this kind of stuff. There are a few things that The Iron Bull says that goes against what devs or previous characters said prior to Inquisition. 

 

This more or less.

 

The Qun is all about letting the system do the most important decisions for you, you don't get a say. This is the opposite.

 

And it's not like there is a easy way for the Tamassrans to truly know if someone who claims to truly be another gender despite the fact

that his or her biological parts say otherwise, is actually the truth or someone messing with them or whatever.

 

The idea of the Qun suddenly tiptoeing around all politically-correct-like is as unlikely as it is hilarious.

[RobRam10]

Why did Bioware had to do this? I keep seeing this damn topic everywhere!

[Drasanil]

The Qun is all about the "true" identity and role of people. That they would have a less rigid notion of gender even as they have a very inflexible view of gender roles is not surprising.

 

Whenever I hear this stuff, I get the impression I'm the only one that ever payed attention to Sten when he was talking about the Qun. He's was pretty definitive on gender and gender roles, with his whole you don't chose what you are born as, the colour of your eyes, your race etc etc... 

 

It may make sense if ignore the past games and strictly take Iron Bull's Cuddly-Qun at face value. But its a definite retcon and generally undermines the tone and philosophy of the Qun from the previous games where you accommodate society not the other way around. People with the 'wrong' gender identity would prime candidates for the reeducation camps. The Qun is not big on dissent or deviance, but they'll tolerate a someone who fundamentally undermines the principles of their sex-segregated work forces? 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I prefer to think Bull is in denial and lying about all things Qun

You mean like the memories of life in the Qun and life out of the Qun have begun to blur together in his mind? That would be a pretty neat story element actually. 

[Ryzaki]

Yes it was changed.

 

People really need to get over it.

 

The Qun in DAO was simply absurd (no sex? are you freaking kidding me?) it was background and not very heavily expanded on. The devs decided to flesh it out and that meant some changes.

 

The Qun is not a cuddly "everyone get along" religion anymore than the Chantry or Tevinter is. It simply has good points and bad like every other group in Thedas.

 

Big whoop.

[Laughing_Man]

Yes it was changed.

 

People really need to get over it.

 

The Qun in DAO was simply absurd (no sex? are you freaking kidding me?) it was background and not very heavily expanded on. The devs decided to flesh it out and that meant some changes.

 

The Qun is not a cuddly "everyone get along" religion anymore than the Chantry or Tevinter is. It simply has good points and bad like every other group in Thedas.

 

Big whoop.

 

Retcons in general are bad. When you write a series of books, you don't decide at the last book to change something that was established since the beginning.

 

Why the hell should we "get over it" just because this story is in the form of a video game?

[AshenEndymion]

The Qun is not a cuddly "everyone get along" religion anymore than the Chantry or Tevinter is. It simply has good points and bad like every other group in Thedas.

 

Last I checked, the Qun is a cuddly "everyone get along" religion.... Because if you don't, you're not actually a member of the Qun.

 

After all, those that rock the boat, or otherwise disagree with the Qun, are reeducated or turned into a mindless zombies.

[Ryzaki]

Last I checked, the Qun is a cuddly "everyone get along" religion.... Because if you don't, you're not actually a member of the Qun.

 

After all, those that rock the boat, or otherwise disagree with the Qun, are reeducated or turned into a mindless zombies.

 

Well that's a new definition of cuddly XD

 

Retcons in general are bad. When you write a series of books, you don't decide at the last book to change something that was established since the beginning.

 

Why the hell should we "get over it" just because this story is in the form of a video game?

 

Retcons in general are going to happen. You think complaining is going to get them to revert it?

 

This isn't even a major change either. The Qun was never a major part of DAO and a side plot (though a good one) in DA2.

 

It's not even the first retcon in the series. (Looking at you Alistair and the "templar talents don't require lyrium.") So yeah. That's what happens with decades long projects and lore. It gets modified. Particularly when the lore wasn't that relevant to past games anyway.

[Treacherous J Slither]

Whenever I hear this stuff, I get the impression I'm the only one that ever payed attention to Sten when he was talking about the Qun. He's was pretty definitive on gender and gender roles, with his whole you don't chose what you are born as, the colour of your eyes, your race etc etc... 

 

It may make sense if ignore the past games and strictly take Iron Bull's Cuddly-Qun at face value. But its a definite retcon and generally undermines the tone and philosophy of the Qun from the previous games where you accommodate society not the other way around. People with the 'wrong' gender identity would prime candidates for the reeducation camps. The Qun is not big on dissent or deviance, but they'll tolerate a someone who fundamentally undermines the principles of their sex-segregated work forces? 

 

Cuddly-Qun lol that is gold!

[Icy Magebane]

This is a rather bizarre change considering the fact that the Qunari are more than willing to destroy a person's mind using qamek if someone refuses to do what they're told after the first couple of "re-educations."  Sometimes you don't even get a second chance...  It's odd that they would be flexible on this issue but so overwhelmingly strict with regards to literally every other aspect of a person's life.

[Ryzaki]

You guys not handling the retcons... you'd never make it as Star Trek fans.  And I'm not even talking about that JJ Abrams crap.

 

Wouldn't make it as Star Wars fans either.

[Eonetic]

It does not make any sense and was completely unnecessary.

[In Exile]

I actually think it is a retcon. Sten says the Tamassrans determine what you'll be when you are born or early in childhood, before the child would think about this kind of stuff. There are a few things that The Iron Bull says that goes against what devs or previous characters said prior to Inquisition. 

 

They can't decide it at birth - that would be idiotic, because it would be equivalent to a lottery. As for later on than that, well, just research how young children who have difficulty with gender are IRL. 

[ItsAMeCaio]

I actually think it is a retcon. Sten says the Tamassrans determine what you'll be when you are born or early in childhood, before the child would think about this kind of stuff. There are a few things that The Iron Bull says that goes against what devs or previous characters said prior to Inquisition.

Krem wasn't born in the Qun. Maybe the 'Aqun-Athlok' thing only applies to later converts.

Besides the roles are not designated by the Tamrassarans  at birth, but when they are twelve years old after years of being evaluated.

[Han Shot First]

I agree with those who see this as a retcon. Not all retcons are necessarily bad, but I think this one wasn't handled well. The whole exchange between Krem and the Iron Bull felt more like an afterschool special complete with cheery affirmation from the Bull, rather than natural dialogue between two characters in the game universe. While the disconnect between Sten and the Iron Bull's portrayals of the Qun wasn't solely responsible for that, it was part of it.

 

I think the exchange with Krem about her identity would have worked better if the Iron Bull's acceptance was based on more on pragmatic concerns (she's good at killing stuff) than religious doctrine, and if his acceptance of Krem was portrayed as being slightly at odds with his own religion. That would have also tied in the internal tug-of-war going on with the Bull regarding his Qunari past and the native identity he had adopted and partially embraced.

[Asakti]

Yeah, while I love the idea of a society not considering trans people a 'big deal', the qunari seem to have too much of a disconnect to make it really work - specifically: the lack of personal identity.  It seems likely that if a male qunari considered themself female, that'd be too personal.  They don't have family units, or names - the idea that someone could 'change' their gender/sex...I could almost imagine it too radical (and thus need reeducation).

 

There is this from the wiki as well:

 

Qunari strongly believe that the genders are inherently and intuitively better at certain tasks. No matter how much aptitude and promise a male shows for management, he will never be considered as good at it as a female, therefore it would be considered inefficient and a waste of resources to place him in a role where a woman might serve better. Instead, the Tamassrans find another role that he shows aptitude for and will place him there instead. The same goes for females, most Qunari will find it odd if a female becomes a warrior.^[4] The odd, very rare exception is made however. A male Qunari will farm if he must, just as a female will fight, depending on the circumstance. If a female shows sincere interest to and outstanding talent at fighting, she will be considered male, regardless of her biological gender. For the Qunari, gender is a secondary trait compared to their duty to the Qun^[18].

 

 

That last bit is from DA:I (Iron Bull and Cassandra dialogue).  The note labelled four is from here.  So, I'm guessing the last bit is where Aqun-Athlok would be considered.  ...though that idea - they are men because they do men's tasks is...well, kind of insulting instead of empowering (the way Bull describes it to Krem).  But that makes sense if Bull is wanting Krem to feel better about himself.

[Icy Magebane]

Maybe it seems odd with Sten's whole "I don't understand why a woman would want to be a man" conversation.

But, Sten could just be ignorant. It's probably not too common and he's antaam, not a priest. Suppose you could call that a retcon since he's supposed to be our 100% reliable source of qunari lore dumps, yeah, maybe.

Aren't all Qunari responsible for reporting violations of the Qun to the proper authorities?  How would this system even work if everyone involved doesn't know what is and is not acceptable?

 

Also there is the fact that retcons are not uncommon in literature and many authors (and consumers) do not see them as a big deal... it's more likely that this was a retcon than that Sten was uninformed.