256 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

Sigh. I never claimed otherwise.

 

But Saarebas are not an example of the Qunari "using every advantage". The lore clearly states that they are little more than barely trained attack dogs, all brute force and no finesse. Qunari are the most Manaphobes of thedas, that is a fact. I'm astonished that I need to tell this to someone who write on these forums.

 

With the whole won't magic thing I was a bit confused.

 

That's not going to stop them from using something controllable and useful. How on earth do you think this isn't magic anyway?

 

[Navasha]

Let's be honest here.   If the Qun are all about efficiency and resource management, then MOST male Qunari are going to have been castrated.   You don't need a 50% population of breedable males.   If a male isn't of good breeding stock, they would (if efficiency is their goal) castrate them after adulthood.    We have been castrating livestock in the same manner forever.    The benefits of castration are many.

 

All of that time and energy wasted on 'servicing' males every couple of days would not make any sense when they can throw a few tight rubberbands around them and have them fall off in a few days. 

 

Now, the writers haven't mentioned this anywhere that I am aware of... but truthfully, if the society is focused on efficiency and has a complete disregard of individualism like they do, then nearly all males would be castrated.  

[Laughing_Man]

With the whole won't magic thing I was a bit confused.

 

That's not going to stop them from using something controllable and useful. How on earth do you think this isn't magic anyway?

 

 

There is very little room for confusion about Qunari attitude towards magic.

 

I don't know who made this picture. But creative license is a thing. And flashy effects in the DA universe do not necessarily mean magic (unfortunately) as we can clearly see in game design.

[Ryzaki]

There is very little room for confusion about Qunari attitude towards magic.

 

I don't know who made this picture. But creative license is a thing. And flashy effects in the DA universe do not necessarily mean magic (unfortunately) as we can clearly see in game design.

 

Yet we still see them using it. Not to great extent no but they'd hardly be the first hypocrites in that.

 

It's the comics and supposedly it's a lyrium like substance. (from the wiki: Both qamek and lyrium are glowing substances. The loss of memory property also happens to the Templars after they consume lyrium for years, and a lyrium brand is used to render a mage Tranquil in a ritual akin to lobotomy. Whether qamek is composed of lyrium is not yet known.)

 

That's not really leaving a lot of room for it not being magic. It's not injected and it works nearly instantly as well.

[Laughing_Man]

Let's be honest here.   If the Qun are all about efficiency and resource management, then MOST male Qunari are going to have been castrated.   You don't need a 50% population of breedable males.   If a male isn't of good breeding stock, they would (if efficiency is their goal) castrate them after adulthood.    We have been castrating livestock in the same manner forever.    The benefits of castration are many.

 

All of that time and energy wasted on 'servicing' males every couple of days would not make any sense when they can throw a few tight rubberbands around them and have them fall off in a few days. 

 

Now, the writers haven't mentioned this anywhere that I am aware of... but truthfully, if the society is focused on efficiency and has a complete disregard of individualism like they do, then nearly all males would be castrated.  

 

Probably, but then again, a small amount of fertile males would not do any favors to their gene-pool.

(I'm not an expert, just seems this way, it needs diversity to stay healthy IIRC)

[Laughing_Man]

Yet we still see them using it. Not to great extent no but they'd hardly be the first hypocrites in that.

 

It's the comics and supposedly it's a lyrium like substance. That's not really leaving a lot of room for it not being magic.

 

Using it perhaps, from time to time, but not *relying* on it in any meaningful capacity.

 

Strange, I could have sworn that this was a chemical substance, not magical one. Where does it says "Lyrium-like"?.

But in any case my point still stands: Magic or no, the delicate balance is still required or the slaves would be useless, this implies sophistication, etc.

 

And you ignored my main point in any case: A plausible explanation or distinction between cases is much better than a retcon.

[King Cousland]

With the whole won't magic thing I was a bit confused.

 

That's not going to stop them from using something controllable and useful. How on earth do you think this isn't magic anyway?

 

 

It isn't magic, in my opinion. I think that, given its appearance and effects, qamek is a kind of lyrium. 

[Ryzaki]

Using it perhaps, from time to time, but not *relying* on it in any meaningful capacity.

 

Strange, I could have sworn that this was a chemical substance, not magical one. Where does it says "Lyrium-like"?.

But in any case my point still stands: Magic or no, the delicate balance is still required or the slaves would be useless, this implies sophistication, etc.

 

And you ignored my main point in any case: A plausible explanation or distinction between cases is much better than a retcon.

 

That's what the reeducation is for. The Qamek is the "we can't do anything else" solution.

 

It shares lyrium qualities is what I meant. The wiping someone completely blank is something we see Lyrium do constantly. (Templar's erosion, Fenris' memory loss was likely a result of it as well).

 

They wouldn't be the first to master a magical object. Nor the last.

 

I ignored it because it's irrelevant. It's already done. The qunari have once again been changed.

[Ryzaki]

It isn't magic, in my opinion. I think that, given its appearance and effects, qamek is a kind of lyrium. 

 

Lyrium is pretty much magic though? You can't cast spells without it or blood, you can't use templar anti-magic abilities without it. It's alive.

[Laughing_Man]

That's what the reeducation is for. The Qamek is the "we can't do anything else" solution.

 

It shares lyrium qualities is what I meant.

 

They wouldn't be the first to master a magical object. Nor the last.

 

I ignored it because it's irrelevant. It's already done. The qunari have once again been changed.

 

So you assumed that it's magic and went from there? I don't see any real evidence for that, everything indicates that the Qunari don't use magic for this - see IB explanations about how they don't need magic to "re-educate" people.

 

And all we are doing on these forums is discussing things that are "already done" and according to you - irrelevant.

That was just one more thread, nothing special about it.

[Laughing_Man]

Lyrium is pretty much magic though? You can't cast spells without it or blood, you can't use templar anti-magic abilities without it. It's alive.

 

Mages need Lyrium only to replenish Mana, cast extremely costly spells, or to aid in entering the Fade.

[Ryzaki]

So you assumed that it's magic and went from there? I don't see any real evidence for that, everything indicates that the Qunari don't use magic for this - see IB explanations about how they don't need magic to "re-educate" people.

 

And all we are doing on these forums is discussing things that are "already done" and according to you - irrelevant.

That was just one pore thread, nothing special about it.

 

Again it's a lyrium like substance that's where I got it from. If they had injected it or forced their victims to ingest I wouldn't be arguing it's magic. But the speed at which it completely erases all memory? That's magic.

 

True it is. But it at least isn't complaining that a 7 year old game is being held as the pinnacle of lore and ignoring all the other changes that same group has gone through game to game.

[Ryzaki]

Mages need Lyrium only to replenish Mana, cast extremely costly spells, or to aid in entering the Fade.

 

You need it to do anything valuable or difficult is my point. (well actually no my point is lyrium is a magical substance. Which it is?) 
 

[Laughing_Man]

Again it's a lyrium like substance that's where I got it from. If they had injected it or forced their victims to ingest I wouldn't be arguing it's magic. But the speed at which it completely erases all memory? That's magic.

 

True it is. But it at least isn't complaining that a 7 year old game is being held as the pinnacle of lore and ignoring all the other changes that same group has gone through game to game.

 

I see little point in arguing about assumptions, and magic or no, it still proves mastery of brain-control.

 

I just argued that you don't really *need* the retcons, and can explain inconsistencies without them, and that there is nothing wrong with going the extra few meters to respect the lore you created yourself as a writer - something that goes without saying when the tool used to deliver the story is a book.

[Ryzaki]

I see little point in arguing about assumptions, and magic or no, it still proves mastery of mind-control.

 

I just argued that you don't really *need* the retcons, and can explain inconsistencies without them, and that there is nothing wrong with going the extra few

meters to respect the lore you created yourself as a writer - something that goes without saying when the tool used to deliver the story is a book.

 

If it's actually lyrium. It really doesn't. It just shows they have a souped up version of it.

 

And I argued we already have unneeded retcons. (Qunari playing for instance as well as the body model changes that occurred. So complaining about this one in particularly like it's the devil loses me.

[luism]

It's their game and their story they can do what they want with it. All we can do is decide where we draw the line with the changes they make and when we personally have had enough or if you like the changes keep buying the product.

[Laughing_Man]

You need it to do anything valuable or difficult is my point. (well actually no my point is lyrium is a magical substance. Which it is?) 
 

 

Valuable is a matter of opinion, and difficulty is relative to skill. As long as a mage has mana, he usually has no reason to use Lyrium.

 

If it's actually lyrium. It really doesn't. It just shows they have a souped up version of it.

 

And I argued we already have unneeded retcons. (Qunari playing for instance as well as the body model changes that occurred. So complaining about this one in particularly like it's the devil loses me.

 

Yes it does. Creating obedient slaves is not the natural effect of Lyrium - no matter how much soup you feed into it.

*Again*: See IB explanations about how they don't need magic to "re-educate" people - "...the right potions...".

 

I don't really like the other retcons, but a retcon that makes sense is better than a retcon that feels like a writer preaching about his opinions.

(no matter how justified they may or may not be)

[Ryzaki]

Valuable is a matter of opinion, and difficulty is relative to skill. As long as a mage has mana, he usually has no reason to use Lyrium.

 

 

Yes it does. Creating obedient slaves is not the natural effect of Lyrium - no matter how much soup you feed into it.

 

I don't really like the other retcons, but a retcon that makes sense is better than a retcon that feels like a writer preaching about his opinions.

(no matter how justified they may be or may not be)

 

Fair enough

 

Erasing someone's memory makes it really easy to make them a biddable slave and lyrium is quite capable of that.

 

Also...creating obedient slaves is pretty much what a tranquil brand does but the tranquil can at least bathe and clean themselves (also another retcon that annoyed me. Tranquil go from having a will but apathetic in DAO to being complete slaves in DA2 and DAI) . What's a tranquil brand made of? Lyrium.

 

So you think the change is preachy?

 

*Again*: See IB explanations about how they don't need magic to "re-educate" people - "...the right potions...".

 

 

Potions?

 

Really?

 

The word potion literally means magical drink. I just...what. It's like drinking a poultice all over again. (Edit: I'm not blaming you for this but BioWare. You don't have a character say "we don't need magic." then end the sentence with "we use potions." )

 

Also Bull's referring to torture. It's very obvious.

 

And I never said they needed magic to reeducate. I said the qamek was most likely magic because of how fast it worked and how all they do is shove it in someone's face.

[Laughing_Man]

Fair enough

 

Erasing someone's memory makes it really easy to make them a biddable slave and lyrium is quite capable of that.

 

Also...creating obedient slaves is pretty much what a tranquil brand does but the tranquil can at least bathe and clean themselves (also another retcon that annoyed me. Tranquil go from having a will but apathetic in DAO to being complete slaves in DA2 and DAI) . What's a tranquil brand made of? Lyrium.

 

So you think the change is preachy?

 

Lyrium destroys brains in a chaotic and unpredictable way, that's not how you make useful slaves.

A little bit of Lyrium won't make any potion do whatever you want it to, you still require mastery and sophistication, etc.

 

Tranquil are made by killing a Mage in the fade, possibly in addition to rites / ritual. (IIRC)

 

Preachiness: Well, it's... something. Preachiness is a good of a word as any, it was certainly not subtle.

[Ryzaki]

*Again*: See IB explanations about how they don't need magic to "re-educate" people - "...the right potions...".

This indicates to me that they are simply masters of potion and poison making. No need for any true magic for that.

 

Lyrium on the other hand, destroys brains in a chaotic and unpredictable way, that's not how you make useful slaves.

 

Tranquil are made by killing a Mage in the fade, possibly in addition to other things. (IIRC)

 

Preachiness: Well, it's... something. Preachiness is a good of a word as any, it was certainly not subtle.

 

Again that's referring to torture. "Deny a man water long enough, use enough potions...blah blah" No **** that works. Any victim of a traumatic event that blocks the memory could've told you that.

 

Again no that really doesn't disprove anything except they know how to torture people which is expected really. There's a whole nother codex on how they mentally break a Tal Vasoth by denying him water and basic dignity.

 

No it doesn't. Lyrium brands do not destroy the mind. Uncontrolled lyrium does. But I never said the qamek was uncontrolled.

 

? Tranquil are primarily made with lyrium bands and the Rite of Tranquility. Killing a mage in the fade is another way yes but it's not the most common. Besides this means the only way to make someone tranquil would be sending someone in the fade to kill them there the whole illegal tranquility would become a lot more difficult if Orsino had to be present for them to occur. (considering it takes considering lyrium and mages to send someone into the fade anyway let alone a certain location, there's little to no way they're doing that without the first enchanter this would make DA2's illegally tranquiled mages plot a near impossibility without Orsino being in on it which I doubt he'd do heavily).

 

So is it simply that it bothers you then?

[Laughing_Man]

Again that's referring to torture. "Deny a man water long enough, use enough potions...blah blah" No **** that works. Any victim of a traumatic event that blocks the memory could've told you that.

 

Again no that really doesn't disprove anything except they know how to torture people which is expected really. There's a whole nother codex on how they mentally break a Tal Vasoth by denying him water and basic dignity.

 

No it doesn't. Lyrium brands do not destroy the mind. Uncontrolled lyrium does. But I never said the qamek was uncontrolled.

 

? Tranquil are primarily made with lyrium bands and the Rite of Tranquility. Killing a mage in the fade is another way yes but it's not the most common.

 

So is it simply that it bothers you then?

 

All I'm saying is, even if you disagree with me, you might agree that there is enough room for maneuvering here. You don't *truly* need a retcon.

 

There is nothing "simple" about retcons. When you create a good story you need to be consistent, you can't just pull **** out of your chimney and change your mind mid story without breaking immersion. And if you do it despite the fact that you can easily avoid it, that's just a basic lack of respect towards your own story and the people who enjoyed it. That's what bothers me.

 

I remember not long ago Bioware using the shield of "Artistic Integrity" to defend the ME3... situation.

But that's important only when the fans are the ones demanding that you change your story, right?

I do love the smell of hypocrisy in the morning.

[Ryzaki]

All I'm saying is, even if you disagree with me, you might agree that there is enough room for maneuvering here. you don't *truly* need a retcon.

 

There is nothing "simple" about retcons. When you create a good story you need to be consistent, you can't just pull **** out of your chimney and change

your mind mid story without breaking immersion. And if you do it despite the fact that you can easily avoid it, that's just a basic lack of respect towards your

own story and the people who enjoyed it. That's what bothers me.

 

I remember not long ago Bioware using the shield of "Artistic Integrity" to defend the ME3... situation.

 

But that's important only when the fans are the ones demanding that you change your story, right? I love the smell of hypocrisy in the morning.

 

I never said it was needed? I mean I simply said there were far worse offenders about things that weren't even background noise.

 

This is such a minor issue I really don't see the need for that reaction.

 

That was always a smokescreen. I'm not sure why you're bringing it up as though it was anything other than a really bad excuse from the jump.

 

Oh great. We're up to the "how dare you ask the devs to do something you hypocrite!" thing. Also I you have me demanding the devs to change the story? Where? I fully admit to asking them never to do crap like that again boat yeah and shrugging if they tweak something already done but I demanded something already done be changed? Where exactly?

 

Edit: Nope. NVM. I'm too old for this ****. You guys have fun!

[Laughing_Man]

No need to go on the attack. I was not calling you a hypocrite, just talking about Bioware's "Artistic Integrity" Vs. cheap retcons.

 

And the issue, while minor in detail, is more about the principle of retcons in general, this is just an example for a particularly badly done retcon.

 

Edit: And how old are you if I may ask? :-P

[leaguer of one]

Let's be honest here.   If the Qun are all about efficiency and resource management, then MOST male Qunari are going to have been castrated.   You don't need a 50% population of breedable males.   If a male isn't of good breeding stock, they would (if efficiency is their goal) castrate them after adulthood.    We have been castrating livestock in the same manner forever.    The benefits of castration are many.

 

All of that time and energy wasted on 'servicing' males every couple of days would not make any sense when they can throw a few tight rubberbands around them and have them fall off in a few days. 

 

Now, the writers haven't mentioned this anywhere that I am aware of... but truthfully, if the society is focused on efficiency and has a complete disregard of individualism like they do, then nearly all males would be castrated.  

It does not work like that. Castration has nothing to do with  efficiency. It's about dominance. There is no reason to throw away good potential solder stock.