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[papercut_ninja]

If you ask an Orthodox Jew and a Liberal Jew about their views on homosexuality, they will give a very different response...interpretations of religious philosophy and doctrine can be very different between different individuals...

[Hanako Ikezawa]

If you ask an Orthodox Jew and a Liberal Jew about their views on homosexuality, they will give a very different response...interpretations of religious philosophy and doctrine can be very different between different individuals...

The problem if that the Qun isn't about individualism. They are pure collectivism. So the difference of interpretation doesn't apply to those under the Qun.

[9TailsFox]

You guys not handling the retcons... you'd never make it as Star Trek fans.  And I'm not even talking about that JJ Abrams crap.

This?

[Ryzaki]

Also:

 

Han shot first.

 

That is all.

[Biotic Flash Kick]

I prefer to think Bull is in denial and lying about all things Qun

hissrad means liar after all

[9TailsFox]

The problem if that the Qun isn't about individualism. They are pure collectivism. So the difference of interpretation doesn't apply to those under the Qun.

This. I think Bioware pushed this with Qun and Krem to far. Qun don't care about what you want to be, you are what Qun demands you to be.

[CampanulaPatula]

IMO it is not a retcon - as far as I can remember in DAO Sten basically ask your female Warden if she's a man, bacause she fights. It is not implied that he would disprove answer "Yes, I'm a man". Basically trangender people usually doesn't challange existence of two genders or gender stereotypes, so it's okay with Qun. Even in Iran zou can legally change your sex..

[9TailsFox]

IMO it is not a retcon - as far as I can remember in DAO Sten basically ask your female Warden if she's a man, bacause she fights. It is not implied that he would disprove answer "Yes, I'm a man". Basically trangender people usually doesn't challange existence of two genders or gender stereotypes, so it's okay with Qun. Even in Iran zou can legally change your sex..

If Fwarden Sten ask Why would women want to be a man. because female warrior don't make sense to him.

 

And.Sten: "No one has a place here. Your farmers wish to be merchants. The merchants dream of being nobles, and the nobles become warriors. No one is content to be who they are." You can say same as women want to be man. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

 

IMO it is not a retcon - as far as I can remember in DAO Sten basically ask your female Warden if she's a man, bacause she fights. It is not implied that he would disprove answer "Yes, I'm a man". Basically trangender people usually doesn't challange existence of two genders or gender stereotypes, so it's okay with Qun. Even in Iran zou can legally change your sex..

He says he doesn't understand how you can fight because you look like a woman and thus can't fight. Krem looks like a woman, he even says he would refuse magic that would give him a male body, so Sten would not agree with Krem fighting either no matter what Krem saw himself as since the Qun doesn't care what you think but how best they think you can serve the Qun. 

[CampanulaPatula]

If Fwarden Sten ask "Why would women want to be a man" because female warrior don't make sense to him.

Yes. But Krem isn't considered a woman. If you want to be warrior and have female body then you are not a womben but a (trans)man.

[CampanulaPatula]

 

 

He says he doesn't understand how you can fight because you look like a woman and thus can't fight. Krem looks like a woman, he even says he would refuse magic that would give him a male body, so Sten would not agree with Krem fighting either no matter what Krem saw himself as since the Qun doesn't care what you think but how best they think you can serve the Qun. 

 

Krem doesn't look like a women to me. I haven't seen him prancing around in dress. He behaves and looks like a stereotypical man. The only thing that is striking is his voice.

[9TailsFox]

Yes. But Krem isn't considered a woman. If you want to be warrior and have female body then you are not a womben but a (trans)man.

Krem is Female. Qun don't care what Krem thinks, she wouldn't even be Krem. If someone not happy about role in Qun, you get re-educated.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Krem doesn't look like a women to me. I haven't seen him prancing around in dress. He behaves and looks like a stereotypical man. The only thing that is striking is his voice.

Krem has the biological body of a female. To Sten, that means he looks like a woman. 

[Kurogane335]

Whenever I hear this stuff, I get the impression I'm the only one that ever payed attention to Sten when he was talking about the Qun. He's was pretty definitive on gender and gender roles, with his whole you don't chose what you are born as, the colour of your eyes, your race etc etc... 

 

It may make sense if ignore the past games and strictly take Iron Bull's Cuddly-Qun at face value. But its a definite retcon and generally undermines the tone and philosophy of the Qun from the previous games where you accommodate society not the other way around. People with the 'wrong' gender identity would prime candidates for the reeducation camps. The Qun is not big on dissent or deviance, but they'll tolerate a someone who fundamentally undermines the principles of their sex-segregated work forces? 

 

But Sten is a warrior, not a priest like Bull. Therefore, he probably didn't new (nor wanted) to explain the intricacies of the Qun to outsiders, especially when said outsiders clearly saw themselves as men and women. Basically, the acceptance of transgender people is the very epitome of the Qun : there, you have people who don't see themselves as the gender that they were born with, so they are disfranchised. The Qun as several options : reeducation (which cost times and people, and would be better used on more important matters than Aqun Athlok), qamek (which would make one person a zombie, needing guidance even for the simplest of tasks) and accept that he/she is Aqun Athlok.

 

Obviously, this is an old system, so far all purpose and matter the Athlok are the sex they claim to be, so technically, we could say that Sten was right : there is only males in the Antaam. Sure, it is partially a retcon but the subject was never brought when we dealt with the Arishok in DA2 and both him and Sten are warriors stranded in a foreign land, with a difficult mission at hand (and in the case of the latter, alone since his battle-brothers died).

 

Also, I would like to tell that, for having worked with children, you can spot at a very young age (even 3 years old) some particularities of the personality, and choose to "enhance" or "contain", and we are talking about children with parents, in our society, which push very hard the kids into genre-specific roles (just look at the publicities at Christmas : the boys get the false weapons and soldiers, the girls the false kitchen and babies). Basically, gender roles are always a construct of the society in which one live. In the Qun, a Tamassran take care of her child almost since their birth; she will very quickly notice the children brought to the other gender "toys". Therefore, she can either try to divert them from those, or accept it from the get go. She can also accept it if it becomes apparent that the child refuse to play with his/her gender's toys.

 

Pragmatist as they are, the Tamassran will probably accept those facts very soon, so they can insure that the child will be ready and truly an Aqun Athlok in the future. Also, with what Cole says to Bull when the latter become a Tal-Vashoth, it appears that the Tamassran truly care for the children in their care. I know that the Qun seems abhorrent to many here, and alien to all of us (at least to a degree) but it has to be said : the Tamassran aren't doing what they do for their own power, but because they genuinely believe that the children will be happier that way.

[CampanulaPatula]

Krem is Female. Qun don't care what Krem thinks, she wouldn't even be Krem. If someone not happy about role in Qun, you get re-educated.

Is he female under Qun? How do we know what is a definition of male and female under Qun? Is there stated anywhere ih the lore that "female = born with female genitalia"? Or it simply means "a person with female role"?

[NRieh]

Retcons in general are going to happen. You think complaining is going to get them to revert it?

Some retcons might be necessary, true (like Anders becoming a Warden and meeting Justice or Leliana being alive).

This one? Krem's character is actually much better if you manage to avoid all that forced 'tolerance' stuff. Mentioning the backstory and explaining the nature is one thing, constantly repeating the subject all over the dialogues - is another. That 'Qun approves!' does not add a damn thing to the character's writing. Don't get me wrong, I like the character, and I don't have anything against such kind of people, but I've followed the different dialogue sets across 2 PTs, and (as I said) I find the less 'preachy' one far more attractive. 

 

 

Sten could just be ignorant.

Both Sten and Arishok  were clear about gender roles. One would think that someone as important as Arishok knows a thing or two about the Qun. He denies femHawke a duel because she's..well, 'she', and he only accepts the fight if Fenris reminds him about Hawke being 'bassalit-an' (or whatever that spelling is).

[KBomb]

Is he female under Qun? How do we know what is a definition of male and female under Qun? Is there stated anywhere ih the lore that "female = born with female genitalia"? Or it simply means "a person with female role"?

This is a very good question. People keep using the female Warden and one used femHawke as examples, but they aren't very good ones, considering that they both are female, identify as a female and don't question their gender.There was never any question of their gender. At all. Krem is male. He identifies as a male, he looks like a male and acts like a male. So, if he were converted into the Qun, whether or not they'd accept him would depend on how they view his gender. He has been living as a male warrior for ages. How would they determine his role and gender and what defines it for them?

[Ryzaki]

Some retcons might be necessary, true (like Anders becoming a Warden and meeting Justice or Leliana being alive).

This one? Krem's character is actually much better if you manage to avoid all that forced 'tolerance' stuff. Mentioning the backstory and explaining the nature is one thing, constantly repeating the subject all over the dialogues - is another. That 'Qun approves!' does not add a damn thing to the character's writing. Don't get me wrong, I like the character, and I don't have anything against such kind of people, but I've followed the different dialogue sets across 2 PTs, and (as I said) I find the less 'preachy' one far more attractive.

 

I'd argue about the necessity of Leliana's retcon. Resource wise? Obvious why they did it. Story wise? No reason Justina couldn't have had someone else as a left hand.

 

Believe me I avoid the preachy one because simply put as far as my quizzy's concerned it's none of his/her business. Doesn't stop Krem from doing his job and Krem wasn't complaining to him about it.

 

That said it's done. The devs wanted to tweak some things about the Qun and Qunari. Wouldn't be the first time. (looking at you horns and body type and how they went from giants to oxmen.)

[Dutchess]

Sten: Why are you here?

Wynne: I beg your pardon?

Sten: Women are artisans, or merchants. Or farmers, though you don't seem particularly... earthy. They have no place in war.

Wynne: I can't even begin to tell you what's wrong with that idea.

Sten: It is not done. There is no more to it.

Wynne: I do not understand. Do the Qunari have no female mages? No female warriors?

Sten: Of course not. Why would our women wish to be men?

Wynne: Do you believe I wish to be a man?

Sten: You cannot wish to be a man. It will lead you only to frustration.

Wynne: Hmm. I believe this discussion does the same. Let us speak no more of it, Sten.

Sten: As you wish.

[NRieh]

So, if he were converted  into the Qun, whether or not they'd accept him would depend on how they view his gender. He has been living as a male warrior for ages.

does not work imo, if they accepted him as a man he'd be just a man, with no special words needed, nothing to even mention. A man, right.

[9TailsFox]

This is a very good question. People keep using the female Warden and one used femHawke as examples, but they aren't very good ones, considering that they both are female, identify as a female and don't question their gender.There was never any question of their gender. At all. Krem is male. He identifies as a male, he looks like a male and acts like a male. So, if he were converted into the Qun, whether or not they'd accept him would depend on how they view his gender. He has been living as a male warrior for ages. How would they determine his role and gender and what defines it for them?

Krem is female. Qun don't care what Krem thinks, Krem is female fighter/warrior same as Tallis. If Krem converted to Qun most logical would be assign Kream as warrior, it would be just waste to assign new role.

[AutumnWitch]

Krem is female. Qun don't care what Krem thinks,

 

So you are the new lead writer for Dragon Age now? And you have decided this? hmm.... Wonder what David is doing now days.

[9TailsFox]

So you are the new lead writer for Dragon Age now? And you have decided this? hmm.... Wonder what David is doing now days.

 

Sten: Why are you here?

Wynne: I beg your pardon?

Sten: Women are artisans, or merchants. Or farmers, though you don't seem particularly... earthy. They have no place in war.

Wynne: I can't even begin to tell you what's wrong with that idea.

Sten: It is not done. There is no more to it.

Wynne: I do not understand. Do the Qunari have no female mages? No female warriors?

Sten: Of course not. Why would our women wish to be men?

Wynne: Do you believe I wish to be a man?

Sten: You cannot wish to be a man. It will lead you only to frustration.

Wynne: Hmm. I believe this discussion does the same. Let us speak no more of it, Sten.

Sten: As you wish.

Did you play DA:O or DA:2. I don't need to be writer. And it even worse if writer forget all established lore and retcon parts off it. I hope it can explained Iron Bull is not real Qunari. Or just paint Qun with rainbow colours. To convert you.