256 réponses à ce sujet

[KBomb]

Krem is female. Qun don't care what Krem thinks, Krem is female fighter/warrior same as Tallis. If Krem converted to Qun most logical would be assign Kream as warrior, it would be just waste to assign new role.

Is there any lore or conversations or anything that shows how the Qun views someone who is transgendered? If they judged gender based on genitilia, then I guess Krem would be considered a female. We don't know how they determine that sort of thing, though. There aren't any cases in which to draw conclusion. We only have Sten telling obvious women that they are women. Tallis is a woman, who is obvious, as well. 

 

Also, Krem is male. Unless you subscribe to the thought that genitals alone make that determination. 

[TurretSyndrome]

A classic case of political correctness stepping over lore integrity and Bioware succumbing to it. You guys are surprised? If Bioware has the decency to maintain any semblance of pre-established lore, they'll just come back by saying that it's just what Iron Bull wants to believe. Have to say though, Qun is losing its punch.

[NRieh]

hmm.... Wonder what David is doing now days.

You're talking about the David which had written something like half-dozen of controversal and mutually-exclusive posts on DA2 characters' sexuality, right?

[Dominic_910]

Is there any lore or conversations or anything that shows how the Qun views someone who is transgendered? If they judged gender based on genitilia, then I guess Krem would be considered a female. We don't know how they determine that sort of thing, though. There aren't any cases in which to draw conclusion. We only have Sten telling obvious women that they are women. Tallis is a woman, who is obvious, as well. 

 

Also, Krem is male. Unless you subscribe to the thought that genitals alone make that determination. 

"why would our women wish to be men?"

"You cannot wish to be a man, it will lead you only to frustration"

Sten makes it quite clear, either iron bull is lying to spare krem's feelings or they changed the Qun.

[CampanulaPatula]

Sten could just be ignorant?

No, he is not. He simply is not able to think about female-bodied member of warrior caste as of woman. You are warrior ergo you are man, regardless of body shape.
As you are Qunari regadless of race.

[CampanulaPatula]

"why would our women wish to be men?"

But transmen may not be considered as women. Even in our society refering to a transmam as "women who wis to be a man" is very rude.

[Twilight_Princess]

I think we can agree they are still a worry for the non-stereotypical males and females who want nothing to do with the qun. I'd imagine they'd "re-educate" them till they believed they were the opposite sex 0_o Going by what Bull suggests. So in a way it's not an "accepting" culture at all, at least to people who don't believe in stereotypes.

[CampanulaPatula]

There was never a sprinkle of mention that being a warrior somehow recognizes the distinction between gender identity and gender role.

  Not mentioned doesn't imply there is no such recognition.

[Evene]

 

Krem wasn't born in the Qun. Maybe the 'Aqun-Athlok' thing only applies to later converts.

Besides the roles are not designated by the Tamrassarans  at birth, but when they are twelve years old after years of being evaluated.

 

 

I found this point very legit. Maybe the word only applies to those converted. Bull didn't say it would count for any Qunari but Krem. Who isn't a born Qunari after all.

 

I also agree to the former mentioned questions what actually defines male/female, but I also agree, that if it would be as easy as to simply be recognized as Male despite being born to a female body, they perhaps wouldn't have a name for it. Or maybe they would. Their whole system is very bureaucratic, I can perfectly imagine them to have a word for it. But the first option - it to count for those converted, would work for Krem and for the former made notions about the Qun.

 

Gender simply isn't a that big matter to them, it's secondary, or well, immanent to their society system. You're not socialized as male or female, but in the role that's defined for you. Which is more a matter of biological sex and your talents.

 

So I totally agree with the statement, that our female heroes of DAO and DA2 don't count in here, or any other FEMALE person, as they act and look female, consider themselves as it. So of course the Qun treats them as female. If someone looks, acts and considers himself as male though, it's perhaps the loophole in the system, when converting into the Qun. Therefor, it has a name.

[Dominic_910]

But transmen may not be considered as women. Even in our society refering to a transmam as "women who wis to be a man" is very rude.

I don't think Sten cares about how rude something is.

[KBomb]

"why would our women wish to be men?"

"You cannot wish to be a man, it will lead you only to frustration"

Sten makes it quite clear, either iron bull is lying to spare krem's feelings or they changed the Qun.

He is speaking of established women wanting to take roles and occupation of established males. Such as warriors. It's the modern day, "Why do you want to dress as a man? You're a woman!" Example, if Wynne was being converted into the Qun, she would do so as an established female. There would be no question about her gender. Krem is far from an established female. They would have to determine her gender.

 

So, how do the Qun determine such? That is the question I was posing. 

[Dominic_910]

I found this point very legit. Maybe the word only applies to those converted. Bull didn't say it would count for any Qunari but Krem. Who isn't a born Qunari after all.

 

I also agree to the former mentioned questions what actually defines male/female, but I also agree, that if it would be as easy as to simply be recognized as Male despite being born to a female body, they perhaps wouldn't have a name for it. Or maybe they would. Their whole system is very bureaucratic, I can perfectly imagine them to have a word for it. But the first option - it to count for those converted, would work for Krem and for the former made notions about the Qun.

 

Gender simply isn't a that big matter to them, it's secondary, or well, immanent to their society system. You're not socialized as male or female, but in the role that's defined for you. Which is more a matter of biological sex and your talents.

 

So I totally agree with the statement, that our female heroes of DAO and DA2 don't count in here, or any other FEMALE person, as they act and look female, consider themselves as it. So of course the Qun treats them as female. If someone looks, acts and considers himself as male though, it's perhaps the loophole in the system, when converting into the Qun. Therefor, it has a name.

This makes more sense and if Iron Bull is telling the truth then i hope they explain it so it doesen't contradict Sten. Right now all we can do is guess since Bull could easily be lying or Sten could know less about the Qun than he lets on. Either way we wont know until we get more Quanari related stuff which may be a while

[9TailsFox]

He is speaking of established women wanting to take roles and occupation of established males. Such as warriors. It's the modern day, "Why do you want to dress as a man? You're a woman!" Example, if Wynne was being converted into the Qun, she would do so as an established female. There would be no question about her gender. Krem is far from an established female. They would have to determine her gender.

 

So, how do the Qun determine such? That is the question I was posing. 

They re-educate you until you don't care.

[Ryzaki]

Yeah let's make someone who would work perfectly fine as a warrior into a laborer. That's not a pointless waste of resources at all.

[Dominic_910]

He is speaking of established women wanting to take roles and occupation of established males. Such as warriors. It's the modern day, "Why do you want to dress as a man? You're a woman!" Example, if Wynne was being converted into the Qun, she would do so as an established female. There would be no question about her gender. Krem is far from an established female. They would have to determine her gender.

 

So, how do the Qun determine such? That is the question I was posing. 

How do you know he's speaking of established women? he could be speaking of those born with female genitilia. Bull could be lying, Sten could mean what you said but in the end there isn't enough information about the Qun to know for sure.

[NRieh]

Bull didn't
say it would count for any
Qunari but Krem.

why would he have a word in Qunlat AND an attitude,if Krem is the only special case?

[CampanulaPatula]

He is speaking of established women wanting to take roles and occupation of established males. Such as warriors. It's the modern day, "Why do you want to dress as a man? You're a woman!" Example, if Wynne was being converted into the Qun, she would do so as an established female. There would be no question about her gender. Krem is far from an established female. They would have to determine her gender.

 

So, how do the Qun determine such? That is the question I was posing. 

Yes, exactly this i was trying to say! (Maker, my English is so rusty!)

 

 

Anyway, some people intepretation of Qun may be different. Let's hope it is not me who gets reeducated Peace

[KBomb]

They re-educate you until you don't care.

If they re-educate, it would be because they won't see him as male. So, we're back to square one, aren't we? 

 

 

How do you know he's speaking of established women? he could be speaking of those born with female genitilia. Bull could be lying, Sten could mean what you said but in the end there isn't enough information about the Qun to know for sure.

How do you know he isn't? You're absolutely right in the fact that there isn't enough information to know for sure. Which was my point. If there isn't established lore about transgendered people, then how could they have changed the lore? We know how they feel about women who identify as women. This is a different situation. I wish the writers would weigh in on it and at least say one thing or another, but I am sure they won't. I wouldn't either tbh, it would be like sticking their hand in a jar full of wasps, at this point. 

[9TailsFox]

why would he have a word in Qunlat AND an attitude,if Krem is the only special case?

Because it was retconed to preach how accepting Bioware is, in worst they possible. Yes show how normal it is, I don't care if Krem wants to be man I still call her Krem, and I will call Blackwall Tom. Was it really necessary to retcon perfect borg society just to show how perfect and open-minded Bioware is. Tevinter support slavery we don't think Bioware support slavery, If Qunari would re-educate Krem I wouldn't think Bioware hate trans. Iron Bull say himself mostly people wouldn't survive under Qun.

[9TailsFox]

If they re-educate, it would be because they won't see him as male. So, we're back to square one, aren't we? 

 

 

How do you know he isn't? You're absolutely right in the fact that there isn't enough information to know for sure. Which was my point. If there isn't established lore about transgendered people, then how could they have changed the lore? We know how they feel about women who identify as women. This is a different situation. I wish the writers would weigh in on it and at least say one thing or another, but I am sure they won't. I wouldn't either tbh, it would be like sticking their hand in a jar full of wasps, at this point. 

I just don't understand how is it possible to misinterpret what Sten say.

"Why would our women wish to be men?"
"You cannot wish to be a man, it will lead you only to frustration"

[Dominic_910]

 

 

 

How do you know he isn't? You're absolutely right in the fact that there isn't enough information to know for sure. Which was my point. If there isn't established lore about transgendered people, then how could they have changed the lore? We know how they feel about women who identify as women. This is a different situation. I wish the writers would weigh in on it and at least say one thing or another, but I am sure they won't. I wouldn't either tbh, it would be like sticking their hand in a jar full of wasps, at this point. 

 Until the Writers explain it nobody knows for sure but Sten made it pretty clear to me. I doubt the writers even had transgendered in mind when they were writing Sten so now they have the trouble of explaining things.

[Dominic_910]

I just don't understand how is it possible to misinterpret what Sten say.

"Why would our women wish to be men?"
"You cannot wish to be a man, it will lead you only to frustration"

Some people don't want to accept that the writers have changed things so they look for excuses. The writers know this is a controversial topic so most people won't question it.

[Evene]

why would he have a word in Qunlat AND an attitude,if Krem is the only special case?

 

wrong word used. Exchange any by every. As people converting are considered Qunari, are't they?
How ever, what I mean was that Bull made no specifications about the term that allows us to think he means born Qunari to be considered as such. He's talking about an 'outsider', how the Qun would see Krem. There is no information over this term to work for converted or born Qunaris.

[TurretSyndrome]

Iron Bull = Hissrad. Leave it at that.

[Asakti]

To be honest, I'm leaning more and more towards Bull is lying to make Krem feel good.  It actually fits Bull's feelings towards the Chargers as a whole.   And also, Bull would generally have a more open look on the world from Sten, given being Ben-Hassrath and working alongside women who are warriors.

 

Its less awesome, but really...the whole open and accepting Qun just ...doesn't fit what others have said on the Qun.  I like what the writers might have been trying to do but it sits weirdly for me.