256 réponses à ce sujet

[KBomb]

Some people don't want to accept that the writers have changed things so they look for excuses. The writers know this is a controversial topic so most people won't question it.

Personally, I don't care if they did change the lore to fit in with the story. As someone said earlier, sometimes they have to in order to add things in and build up a particular story. All evidence pointing to the fact that the Qun wouldn't accept someone who is transgendered is based on a few things Sten said. In my opinion, I don't see that as solid proof of the lore, considering he was speaking to women about gender roles. 

 

You can certainly take Sten's word as law. Just as I can believe the female Warden is a completely different situation than Krem, and Sten's words wouldn't apply to that and could be ambiguous enough to include it without re-writing the entire Qun. As usual--imo---it's just another case of making a mountain out of a hill. There isn't enough information to concrete either of us, to be honest. So, no reason to make excuses. 

[In Exile]

Whenever I hear this stuff, I get the impression I'm the only one that ever payed attention to Sten when he was talking about the Qun. He's was pretty definitive on gender and gender roles, with his whole you don't chose what you are born as, the colour of your eyes, your race etc etc...

It may make sense if ignore the past games and strictly take Iron Bull's Cuddly-Qun at face value. But its a definite retcon and generally undermines the tone and philosophy of the Qun from the previous games where you accommodate society not the other way around. People with the 'wrong' gender identity would prime candidates for the reeducation camps. The Qun is not big on dissent or deviance, but they'll tolerate a someone who fundamentally undermines the principles of their sex-segregated work forces?

You're clearly not listening to Sten if what you took away from his discussion was that the Qun had anything close to our understanding of professions or roles. A role in the Qun is not a job. It is the metaphysical definition of what you are as a person. You're aren't a person who fulfills a role. You *are* a the role. That is the beginning and end of everything that you are and will ever be as a person.

The biology is not a relevant part of the philosophy: it is an analogy. Unless you think that people are born soldiers or bakers.

It is exactly what the Arishok says when he says that they lost no Qunari to the Tal-Vasoth. He's not an idiot. He's had (in our literal sense) defectors. But the mere fact of their defection makes them non-Qunari, as if they never existed.

[In Exile]

Nope, he clearly states that if you're a woman, you're unable to be a warrior, because you can only be one if you're a man. It's not a "you are a warrior ergo you are a man", it's a "you can only be a warrior if you are a man". Being a man is a prerequisite for being a warrior, not the other way around.

There was never a sprinkle of mention that being a warrior somehow recognizes the distinction between gender identity and gender role.

No, that's completely misunderstanding the Qun. Gender isn't a role in it. The role takes priority over everything. Sten is a "Sten". The fact that the has a sword, Asala, is just a consequence of his being a Sten. He being a man is the same sort of thing.

We've already had the same discussion over Tallis when every one insisted that she was retcon because she fought and was a woman.

[In Exile]

He also states that you can't choose to be something that the Qun doesn't allow. Gender isn't a role in the Qun, it just determines which roles or professions you can be and which ones you can't. According to Sten, women can't be warriors, because to be a warrior, you have to be a man. IB says that if you wish hard enough, you can be a warrior and be considered a man. Sten also scoffs at when the Warden tells him that "a person can choose what to do". How come Sten didn't mention Aqun-Athlok?


"Male" and "female" isn't a role in the Qun, but they're prerequisites for roles in the Qun. If you are a woman, you cannot be a warrior, according to Sten. If you are a woman, you can be a warrior as long as you try hard enough, then you will be considered a man, according to IB.

Again, you have it backwards. Warriors are men. The logic is "IF Warrior, THEN Man". The converse is "IF Not Man, THEN not Warrior ". Sten isn't saying that a warrior cannot be a woman. He is saying that a woman cannot be a warrior. That distinction matters a great deal.

To begin with, Krem does not "choose" to be a man. He is a man. It is exactly like how a baker does not "choose" to be a baker under the Qun. It is your role.

Male and female are not prerequisites. They are consequences. If you are not a man, you cannot be a warrior. But Krem is not a man.

Not to mention that the IB does not say that Krem could be a warrior under the Qun so this is beside the point.

You keep thinking that there is some "change" here, but there is no change. There is no such thing as choice under the Qun. Their fiction is not that you have a profession chosen for you. Their fiction is that this is always your essence. It is everything that you are and will be, until you are something else (like how Sten gets promoted).

[Retro-bit]

I remember arguing with Sten because I was a woman doing a man's role in origins so it's a bit contradictory.....

I just think Bioware want's to look accepting, open minded and progressive which isn't a bad thing

[In Exile]

Sten's logic is "if man, can be warrior", "if woman, can't be warrior". He never said that being a warrior makes you a man, since he does not refer to the female warden as a man even though she is a warrior. Iron Bull said that.

 

No. You're wrong. As I said: Sten says that "IF NOT Man, THEN NOT Warrior", which is the logical equivalent of  "IF Warrior, THEN Man". Sten does not recognize the female Warden as a warrior. What she does is incomprehensible to his worldview. You keep conflating the true fact of the matter - the female Warden obviously fights - with the metaphysical truth for Sten, which she that she cannot have that role. This quite serious logical error - conflating the fact of the matter with the metaphysical truth in the Qun - is the fundamental conceptual problem with your post, analysis and general conclusions. 

 

 

 

You say gender isn't a role in the Qun, then equate it with one?

 

It is an immutable aspect, in the same way that your role is an immutable aspect, because it flows as a logical necessity from the role that you possess under the Qun. I was under the misapprehension that you understood what it meant to have an immutable role under the Qun and so I thought it might illustrate the point by analogy; clearly that was a mistake on my part. 

 

Of course, the Qun metaphysics about the immutable nature of the role is actually far more nuanced since you can change your role - Sten, after all, was promoted to Arishok. 

 

 

 

Source?

 

Just what exactly is your source for the converse besides your (clearly incorrect) parsing of the language that Sten uses in DA:O? It is one thing for us to have a debate as to the precise meaning of the language he uses; it is quite another for you to hypocritically demand that I make out some standard of evidence that your own argument is apparently immune from.

 

 

 

You just said that he is?

 

 That was a typo. But you win one and one-half internets for pointing it out as if it uncovered something profound. Bravo. 

 

 

Except I wasn't talking about Krem, I was talking about the fact that you can suddenly choose to be another profession even though previously our main source of the Qun said that you couldn't, and that your role was dependent on your gender.

 

I abhor argumentative shell-games. You are very clearly talking about Krem, since the entire conversation with the IB is specifically about Krem, who he is, and how the Qun treats people in his situation. To say that you're not addressing Krem in particular is ridiculous. 

 

 

 

What are you even talking about? Of course there is no such thing as choice under the Qun, which is what IB directly contradicts. If you are a woman, you cannot be a warrior. IB says that someone born one gender can choose to live another, and how Qunari women can be warriors if they try hard enough, which is never mentioned in previous games. Whether or not they are then considered "male" or "female" is irrelevant, as you already said gender isn't a role, what is relevant is the fact that in DA:O, there was no indication of choosing what you want to do then the Qun adapting to it, it was the other way around.

 

This is not, again, what the IB says. Here is what the IB says:

 

The IB: In Qunadar, Krem'd be an Aqun-Athlok. That's what we call someone born one gender but living like another. 

Krem: And Qunari don't treat those ... Aqun people any differently than a real man? 

The IB: They are real men. Just like you are. 

Krem: Maybe your people aren't so bad after all. 

The IB: Don't get your hopes up, Krem. We still come down hard on the back talk. 

 

I cannot begin to guess what led you to concoct this fantasy that the IB said (1) that women can choose to be warriors or (2) that the someone born one gender can choose to live as another, because it has absolutely no connection with what the IB said in the scene. 

 

There is no suggestion in his speech that gender is anything more than an immutable quality. That gender is an immutable consequence of having a role rather than a role is apparent from the strict logic of the statements made by Sten. 

 

Your inability to see this is your own failing, but at the very least use the actual phrasing that the IB used in the scene rather than imposing the language of choice (which is literally the opposite of what the IB says) and then going even further to actually concoct a fantasy that he said anything at all about women "choosing" to be warriors. 

[papercut_ninja]

Morrigan: "Look around you, then, you see women throughout this land, fighters and mages both."

 

Sten: "That has yet to be proven."

 

Morrigan: "Which? That they fight? Or that they are female?"

 

Sten: "Either."

[Twilight_Princess]

 

 

I wasn't referring to that scene in particular either, that's just your assumption. IB's dialogue with Cassandra is where he says that:

 

Cassandra: I am surprised you accept fighting at a woman's side, Bull. I understood qunari women didn't fight.
The Iron Bull: If a qunari women really wants to fight and has a gift for it, she becomes an Aqun-athlok. The Aqun-athlok joins the warriors and is treated as a male. He becomes... a guy, for all intents and purposes.
Cassandra: But she wouldn't physically become male, surely!
The Iron Bull: Doesn't matter. In the Qun, your role is everything.
Cassandra: And... do you think of me as male, then?
The Iron Bull: Depends. In... or out of your armor?

 

 

 

 

It's the "really wants to" part that doesn't fit with my idea of the qun .

[Dutchess]

They would have to determine her gender.

 

So, how do the Qun determine such? That is the question I was posing. 

 

I have a hard time imagining the Qunari bothering about more than what's between the legs. Strictly speaking we don't know how they determine gender and ensuing role, but when combining things we do know:

 

1. Qunari use selective breeding. No doubt the Qun decides who gets to breed with whom, and that will not be based on who would make a cute couple. With such a focus on genetics and desirable qualities that need to be passed on, it's the sex of the individual that matters, the anatomical parts. Not sexuality, or how the individual identifies themselves. Your role is such and such, based on the necessary parts.

Edit to add: Mary Kirby stated Qunari women are forced to conceive and give birth, even if they don't want to.

 

2. Sten is unfamiliar with the concept of playing, and with that of parents. Children are raised by priests. They are never allowed to play, i.e. they get drilled into learning the demands of the Qun and their role from a very young age. Already role is what matters. Considering how crucial gender is in determining future role ("women can be artisans, priests, farmers") it again seems more likely Qunari look at sex rather than gender and select kids for their future roles from there. It's about searching for what they're good at, but women can never be warriors so no use wasting time having girls practice something like that. Better see whether they are better at farming or sewing. 

 

3. The Qun does not give a damn about happiness. Happiness is fleeting, you can't build on that. Greater good is what should be served. Ergo it doesn't matter whether you are happier as a farmer or a merchant, or as a man or a woman. You come into the world equipped with certain characteristics (skills, potential strength, intelligence, and genitalia) and you serve the Qun by utilizing what you have been given. 

 

I don't know why they didn't use Krem as a token of the open-mindedness of Tal'Vashoth instead of Qunari. That seems more logical, and could be one of the reasons why someone decides to leave the Qun.

[leaguer of one]

I actually think it is a retcon. Sten says the Tamassrans determine what you'll be when you are born or early in childhood, before the child would think about this kind of stuff. There are a few things that The Iron Bull says that goes against what devs or previous characters said prior to Inquisition. 

Not really. If a Tamassran determins who you'll be that they have to the power to give any person any role they see fit. Even change it. If they she a girl who is better suited as a man, why would they not raise them to be a man?

[Navasha]

Not too surprising to me.   The Qun looks at everyone like they are a tool or a cog in the machine, not as people.   You use the tool that fits the job and that's about it.    Sexual identity is part of individual identity and the Qun doesn't acknowledge that type of thinking.    So while it may seem a retcon to Sten's previous statements about the Qun, it does actually work.   

[leaguer of one]

I have a hard time imagining the Qunari bothering about more than what's between the legs. Strictly speaking we don't know how they determine gender and ensuing role, but when combining things we do know:

 

1. Qunari use selective breeding. No doubt the Qun decides who gets to breed with whom, and that will not be based on who would make a cute couple. With such a focus on genetics and desirable qualities that need to be passed on, it's the sex of the individual that matters, the anatomical parts. Not sexuality, or how the individual identifies themselves. Your role is such and such, based on the necessary parts.

 

2. Sten is unfamiliar with the concept of playing, and with that of parents. Children are raised by priests. They are never allowed to play, i.e. they get drilled into learning the demands of the Qun and their role from a very young age. Already role is what matters. Considering how crucial gender is in determining future role ("women can be artisans, priests, farmers") it again seems more likely Qunari look at sex rather than gender and select kids for their future roles from there. It's about searching for what they're good at, but women can never be warriors so no use wasting time having girls practice something like that. Better see whether they are better at farming or sewing. 

 

3. The Qun does not give a damn about happiness. Happiness is fleeting, you can't build on that. Greater good is what should be served. Ergo it doesn't matter whether you are happier as a farmer or a merchant, or as a man or a woman. You come into the world equipped with certain characteristics (skills, potential strength, intelligence, and genitalia) and you serve the Qun by utilizing what you have been given. 

 

I don't know why they didn't use Krem as a token of the open-mindedness of Tal'Vashoth instead of Qunari. That seems more logical, and could be one of the reasons why someone decides to leave the Qun.

The qun care about effectiveness. If a girl is more effective becoming a man then it make sense to do it. You're looking at it in the rigid view of the soldier which is not the only view. We are already show the priesthood is much more flexible.

[leaguer of one]

I remember arguing with Sten because I was a woman doing a man's role in origins so it's a bit contradictory.....

I just think Bioware want's to look accepting, open minded and progressive which isn't a bad thing

Think about it this why. You warden identifies themselfes as a woman in gender. He see the woman like that should not lower themselves to do the work of men.

[Joseph Warrick]

Several real life cultures are very rigid in terms of gender roles, even to the point of criminalizing non-conformity in some cases, and supporting of transgender ideas at the same time. You're alright as long as you fit somewhere within the system. Anywhere.

[leaguer of one]

Several real life cultures are very rigid in terms of gender roles, even to the point of criminalizing non-conformity in some cases, and supporting of transgender ideas at the same time.

A ridgr as the qun is one of it's good staple is that the people are taught to judge and indivisual by there worth and action, not by what they are. So i do see the qun allowing this.

[NRieh]

 

All evidence pointing to the fact that the Qun wouldn't accept someone who is transgendered is based on a few things Sten said.

And also Arishok (femHawke dialogue about fighting woman) . Two sources point at that.

 

I am going to repeat myself, I guess. Had that 'but Krem is the real man in the eyes of Qun'  be true, they'd just have called him a MAN. Qunari are not famous for complicating things, after all. Their system as strange and exotic as seems is as straightforward as can be. They see a MAN they treat and reference him as a MAN, they see a WOMAN and they treat her accordingly.

 

They obviously do NOT consider Krem a MAN they clearly consider him 'someone born one gender but living like another'©IB. Had such things be normal, neither Sten nor Arishok would have said anything. 

[leaguer of one]

And also Arishok (femHawke dialogue about fighting woman) . Two sources point at that.

 

I am going to repeat myself, I guess. Had that 'but Krem is the real man in the eyes of Qun'  be true, they'd just have called him a MAN. Qunari are not famous for complicating things, after all. Their system as strange and exotic as seems is as straightforward as can be. They see a MAN they treat and reference him as a MAN, they see a WOMAN and they treat her accordingly.

 

They obviously do NOT consider Krem a MAN they clearly consider him 'someone born one gender but living like another'©IB. Had such things be normal, neither Sten nor Arishok would have said anything. 

Not really. You're looking at from the persective of the soldiers who are straight and narrow. The priest hood is different.

[Kidd]

I don't see the retcon here. Sten says it will lead to frustration if you wish you were a man. This is most likely 100% indicative of Qunari views, indeed. But Krem doesn't "wish he was a man" - he is a man. Your FemWarden doesn't say she's a man, she says she's a woman with a sword.

Being trans is not a choice and it's not a wish. It simply is. Which fits very well with the whole idea of asit tal-eb. You are what you are, and Tamassran will see to it that you are put in a role where you can benefit the Qunari as good as possible.

To deny somebody's gender would be to deny their place in the world. That's incredibly un-Qunari.

If Krem had grown up among Tamassran, it seems his gender identity would have been respected without question and he would have been assigned a male job at once. If he converted now, he'd likely be put in a warrior role considering he's pretty good with that sword and shield. It would be a waste to re-educate him into another job unless he showed extraordinary natural talent in another male area.

I see a lot of talk about how trans acceptance would be something which happens only in individualist cultures. I imagine this is cultural bias, and I strongly disagree with this considering where I'm from. I'll leave examples of real-life politics out of this, but there is definitely IRL precedent of collectivist ideologies being very accommodating in trans issues. It is possible to accept trans people not only out of the idea of "personal freedom," but "equality" as well (which is generally what the divide is about in the first place).

It all boils down to: Gender role is not gender.

[Dutchess]

The qun care about effectiveness. If a girl is more effective becoming a man then it make sense to do it. You're looking at it in the rigid view of the soldier which is not the only view. We are already show the priesthood is much more flexible.

 

No, because they are fine with excluding men and women from roles that don't fit their gender, regardless of how effective they might have been. Sten is baffled by a female Warden, who is fighting very effectively (well, Sten doubts the strategy, but fighter skill can't really be debated). They assume that gender (or sex, more likely) forms the foundation of what someone can be effective at. Males have bigger muscles, hence stronger, hence better warriors. Something along those lines, no doubt.

 

You associate happiness and what someone is comfortable with, with effectiveness. Might be true, but the Qunari do not care about that. Or someone who really, really hates being a farmer and would love to be a merchant should be allowed to switch as well, because surely they would be more effective then? 

[Kurogane335]

I would like to remember that the Antaam (and thus Sten and the Arishok) is considered the "body" of the Qun, while the priesthood (and thus Iron Bull) is the soul. It has an importance because we know from Bull past that he became a Ben-Hassrath when his Tamassran understood that he liked both to fight and to lie, while he was probably bred for fight only. So, the inclinations of the children are taken into account, because it is also what determine where they'll be better in the service of the Qun.

 

It is not beyond reason to imagine that in the Qun, Tamassran are trained to educate a certain type of Qunari, be it fighters, bakers, etc. Obviously, the education required to do a fine member of the Antaam will have little in common with the one necessary to form a Ben-Hassrath; the latter probably has a deeper understanding of the Qun mysteries than the former. The Body doesn't need to concern itself with the secrets of the Soul and the burdens of the Mind, it needs to be healthy and strong. That's why most Tal-Vashoth are brutal and savages : they came from the Antaam and never had knowledge of the more complex ideas of the Qun.

 

it should also been noted that the Ben-Hassraths posses greater knowledge of the Qunari past than the rest of their society, as far as we know. Also, they are well respected by the Antaam, so if a priest come to the army with a biological woman and says that she is in fact a man, then for all purpose and matters (save maybe pregnancy, which could lead to some complicated rituals to avoid the other Antaam members to attach the one bearing the child to a woman) he is a man. I also would like to point out the fact that the Natives Americans had the same sort of possibilities for a man or a woman to become a member of the other gender, and it was not frowned upon.

 

 

No, because they are fine with excluding men and women from roles that don't fit their gender, regardless of how effective they might have been. Sten is baffled by a female Warden, who is fighting very effectively (well, Sten doubts the strategy, but fighter skill can't really be debated). They assume that gender (or sex, more likely) forms the foundation of what someone can be effective at. Males have bigger muscles, hence stronger, hence better warriors. Something along those lines, no doubt.

 

You associate happiness and what someone is comfortable with, with effectiveness. Might be true, but the Qunari do not care about that. Or someone who really, really hates being a farmer and would love to be a merchant should be allowed to switch as well, because surely they would be more effective then? 

 

Sten is baffled by a woman, stating proudly that she is a woman, taking the sword. If the Warden was saying that she was in fact a "he" and used the sword, Sten would probably accept it. There is a dialogue as far back as DA : O which can point to this direction which has already been quoted in this thread. The problem for Sten is not that she is a woman biologically, but that she thinks herself a woman while doing a "male" job in the Qun.

 

And even then, as the play advance, he grow accepting of it, possibly because you are a Grey Warden. Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me that, with Sten as the Arishok, being a Grey Warden would be considered the closer an outsider can become to the Qun, with them not being able to cease to be Wardens -at least officially- and doing their duty no matter what. If the Warden was female, it could even lead to some sort of non-gender exclusive role, as some exists under the Qun.

[OrbitalWings]

While I was thrilled at Krem's inclusion in the game and am 100% behind BioWare having more diverse characters, the Qun retconning did rather irk me. Also seems that the term Iron Bull applies to Krem should apply to any female warrior, seeing as Sten explicitly states that women don't fight and all that stuff.

 

My preferred theory is that Bull is lying to Krem to help him feel more at ease, and puts it down to the Qun to mask the fact it's him personally being a big horned softy.

[NRieh]

 

You're looking at from the persective of the soldiers who are straight and narrow. The priest hood is different.

Considering you refer to IB as some part of that 'priesthood' - IB himself (while being very supportive and nice and such) does NOT call him a MAN.

There's just a 'man' (with no 'but...'s) and there's 'something that is not really a man, but, oh, y'know', that THING'. The very fact that latter has some place in the Qun seems rather strange, really.