256 réponses à ce sujet

[leaguer of one]

No, because they are fine with excluding men and women from roles that don't fit their gender, regardless of how effective they might have been. Sten is baffled by a female Warden, who is fighting very effectively (well, Sten doubts the strategy, but fighter skill can't really be debated). They assume that gender (or sex, more likely) forms the foundation of what someone can be effective at. Males have bigger muscles, hence stronger, hence better warriors. Something along those lines, no doubt.

 

You associate happiness and what someone is comfortable with, with effectiveness. Might be true, but the Qunari do not care about that. Or someone who really, really hates being a farmer and would love to be a merchant should be allowed to switch as well, because surely they would be more effective then? 

Again, no they are not. The quanri's basic belief is waste nothing. Your looking at it in the very of a soldier who only looks at just a part of the qun. The is with Sten is gender not sex. Remember it the pristhood that picks the jobs and makes order of who is who. And they are shown to be way flexible them the soldiers. If priest says a woman will take the role of men and be declared a man then the soldiers fallow. You say was Sten say the qun is and is fallowed is like say what a a crusader from the crusades is the only example to fallow chistiany.

 

And the act is not about happiness, it about effectiveness. If the woman is effective as a fight man then they would do it.

[papercut_ninja]

Aren't you all just overanalyzing everything about Sten as lore? I have the feeling that Sten was written to just make badass Sten-y comments about stuff, the man is basically an opinion-machinegun, half of it doesn't even make any sense and contradicts itself to begin with. Whatever anyone says about the Qun after DA:O would need to be retconned anyway, because Sten's Qun is just full of ad-hoc arguments and paradoxes...there's no fixing it without retconning.

[leaguer of one]

Considering you refer to IB as some part of that 'priesthood' - IB himself (while being very supportive and nice and such) does NOT call him a MAN.

There's just a 'man' (with no 'but...'s) and there's 'something that is not really a man, but, oh, y'know', that THING'. The very fact that latter has some place in the Qun seems rather strange, really.

.....

 

Play the game again. Bull only calls Krem a man.

[Dutchess]

.....

 

Play the game again. Bull only calls Krem a man.

 

He does say "born like one gender and living like another".

[NRieh]

 

Bull only calls Krem a man.

"In Qunadar, Krem'd be an Aqun-Athlok. That's what we call someone born one gender but living like another."

 Why would Qunari want to call a MAN anything other than a 'MAN', pray tell us?

[leaguer of one]

He does say "born like one gender and living like another".

So. That does not mean he calls Krem anything other then a man.

[leaguer of one]

"In Qunadar, Krem'd be an Aqun-Athlok. That's what we call someone born one gender but living like another."

 Why would Qunari want to call a MAN anything other than a 'MAN', pray tell us?

Because the priest hood tells them to. They do anything the priesthood says.

[Kidd]

"In Qunadar, Krem'd be an Aqun-Athlok. That's what we call someone born one gender but living like another."
 Why would Qunari want to call a MAN anything other than a 'MAN', pray tell us?

It's a Qunari technical term. Trans men are simply men. Yet when we are asked to explain what a trans man is, we'll say something quite similar.

Blonde man is also a technical term. Blonde men are simply men. Yet when we are asked to explain what a blonde man is, we'll explain how hair looks and why.

[NRieh]

 

Because the priest hood tells them to. They do anything the priesthood says.

I don't assume that  you know why would Qunari priesthood ever want to make an extra word for something that already exists?

It makes sense to call a man something that one considers actually a man (and same true for women).

[Maverick827]

Krem & The Qun is my favorite morning radio show.

[NRieh]

 

Trans men are simply men. Yet when we are asked to explain what a trans man is, we'll say something quite similar.

My guess that's because we are not Qunari. 

Most Qunari we've met so far had difficulties with explaining their roles and\or the Qun.

They mostly tended to end up with something like 'I'm a warrior because I'm a warrior'.

[leaguer of one]

I don't assume that  you know why would Qunari priesthood ever want to make an extra word for something that already exists?

It makes sense to call a man something that one considers actually a man (and same true for women).

Says the guy who is basing a view of a culture off the rigid view of one guy. Sorry to say but Bull said it best.

 

"Trying to judge the qun off of one person is like a blind dwarf trying to tell what a dragon looks like by touching it."

 

You don't even know how the priest think or act on things yet you have one in front of you telling you how it is who sees the bigger picture. Yet, you going to deny it and go but the statement of a guy who is only going to see it as a soldier views it.

 

That's like judging Christianity and it's beliefs by the action of the crusaders in the middle ages.

[leaguer of one]

My guess that's because we are not Qunari. 

Most Qunari we've met so far had difficulties with explaining their roles and\or the Qun.

They mostly tended to end up with something like 'I'm a warrior because I'm a warrior'.

Because all we talked to are warriors of the qun. They are tell the qun how they were taught.

[l7986]

I think they reached to much with the Qun being the ones to accept Krem. I could definitely see Krem going to Orlais from Tevinter and this conversation never happening, but I think the Qun is way to rigid to be able to accept someone like that. I also seriously doubt they wouldn't just wipe Krems minds simply for being Tevinter and not decide to re-purpose him/her while doing so.

[leaguer of one]

I think they reached to much with the Qun being the ones to accept Krem. I could definitely see Krem going to Orlais from Tevinter and this conversation never happening, but I think the Qun is way to rigid to be able to accept someone like that. I also seriously doubt they wouldn't just wipe Krems minds simply for being Tevinter and not decide to re-purpose him/her while doing so.

I said this before and I'll say this agein.

Judging th qun and what they do based on what Sten says is like judging Christianity and it's beliefs by the action of the crusaders in the middle ages. You are just seeing the perspective of a soldier. The priest hood is different. If the priest hood tells  them a woman is a man and have roles of a man, then they are a man.

[Draining Dragon]

This is not a small retcon. It fundamentally alters the nature of the Qun.

[l7986]

 

"Trying to judge the qun off of one person is like a blind dwarf trying to tell what a dragon looks like by touching it."

 

You don't even know how the priest think or act on things yet you have one in front of you telling you how it is who sees the bigger picture. Yet, you going to deny it and go but the statement of a guy who is only going to see it as a soldier views it.

Yet you are taking everything Bull says as gospel when he is just one Qunari out of two we've had as companions. Do you not find it just a tad bit hypocritical to say disregard what Sten tells you about the Qun but believe everything Bull says? And when did Bull become a priest because I sure as hell don't remember him saying he was.

[Dutchess]

I said this before and I'll say this agein.

Judging th qun and what they do based on what Sten says is like judging Christianity and it's beliefs by the action of the crusaders in the middle ages. You are just seeing the perspective of a soldier. The priest hood is different. If the priest hood tells  them a woman is a man and have roles of a man, then they are a man.

 

Except introducing the player to the Qun was pretty much Sten's role (ha ha) in DAO. Same with why got one Quarian, one Turian, one Krogan and one Asari companion in ME1. These characters are representatives of their people (or anomalies, but the result is the same) and allow the player to learn about their culture as a whole. Either the character matches that culture (Tali) or they don't (Wrex and Garrus), but they still talk about how their people generally do this and this and how they view that and that. Sten was a stereotypical Qunari and he was supposed to give us an overview of how his people lived and looked at life. 

 

Of course this initial introduction can be expanded upon and we can explore different angles, with new characters in different roles. But when you get contradictions like these that can only be explained with "haha, they were wrong" or "haha, they lied" that's weak writing and the contradiction probably stems from a retcon. There was obviously no "Aqun-Athlok" when Sten was written.

[l7986]

I said this before and I'll say this agein.

Judging th qun and what they do based on what Sten says is like judging Christianity and it's beliefs by the action of the crusaders in the middle ages.

I wish I could respond to this and how Catholicism gets constantly generalized/judged by whats happened in the past (especially on BSN), but I won't because a flame war is not something I want to start.

[TurretSyndrome]

I said this before and I'll say this agein.

Judging th qun and what they do based on what Sten says is like judging Christianity and it's beliefs by the action of the crusaders in the middle ages. You are just seeing the perspective of a soldier. The priest hood is different. If the priest hood tells  them a woman is a man and have roles of a man, then they are a man.

 

And pray tell why the priesthood would be telling you that you are of the opposite gender? They already know what gender you are because of the body parts you are born with. If they don't determine gender based on that, then we would see Qunari women among the Antaam, not just men. But that's not the case, is it?

 

So by that logic, the priesthood doesn't give a sh!t about what the person thinks they are. They judge gender based on what body parts they have. So according to the priesthood, Krem is a woman. At best, he'll be a Ben-Hassrath but never a part of the Antaam. He can call himself however he likes. Simple as that. 

 

So Aqun-Athlok is probably a word for people who identify themselves as the opposite gender, no more no less. But regardless of what they identify themselves as, they'll do what they're told and their roles will always be determined by their "physical" genders. If Krem has functional female reproductive organs and is told by the Tamaasrans to have sex and give birth, he'll do it. If he won't, re-education or Qamek. 

[mikeymoonshine]

He does say "born like one gender and living like another".

 

He says that to people outside of the Qun in order to explain what an Aqun-Athlok is. Bull isn't like normal Qunari, he is a spy who knows how to interact with non Qunari in a way they will understand. 

[MikeJW]

And pray tell why the priesthood would be telling you that you are of the opposite gender? They already know what gender you are because of the body parts you are born with. If they don't determine gender based on that, then we would see Qunari women among the Antaam, not just men. But that's not the case, is it?

 

So by that logic, the priesthood doesn't give a sh!t about what the person thinks they are. They judge gender based on what body parts they have. So according to the priesthood, Krem is a woman. At best, he'll be a Ben-Hassrath but never a part of the Antaam. He can call himself however he likes. Simple as that. 

 

So Aqun-Athlok is probably a word for people who identify themselves as the opposite gender, no more no less. But regardless of what they identify themselves as, they'll do what they're told and their roles will always be determined by their "physical" genders. If Krem has functional female reproductive organs and is told by the Tamaasrans to have sex and give birth, he'll do it. If he won't, re-education or Qamek. 

 

 

Right. A woman born in the Qun is going to be raised as a woman and be given a role traditionaly held by women. They're not going to look at a girl baby and say it's a man. Someone like Krem would be an anethema to the Qun. Someone who is a woman but identifies as a man would be so foreign to what it is to be Qun they would not be tolerated.

[mikeymoonshine]

Sten: Why are you here?

Wynne: I beg your pardon?

Sten: Women are artisans, or merchants. Or farmers, though you don't seem particularly... earthy. They have no place in war.

Wynne: I can't even begin to tell you what's wrong with that idea.

Sten: It is not done. There is no more to it.

Wynne: I do not understand. Do the Qunari have no female mages? No female warriors?

Sten: Of course not. Why would our women wish to be men?

Wynne: Do you believe I wish to be a man?

Sten: You cannot wish to be a man. It will lead you only to frustration.

Wynne: Hmm. I believe this discussion does the same. Let us speak no more of it, Sten.

Sten: As you wish.

 

To me that part sticks out more. Why do the Qunari not have female mages? This could mean that originally Qunari mages were only born male (before a retcon), it could mean that this was some sort of mistake on the part of the writer, it could mean that Sten doesn't really know or didn't care to answer properly. Another possibility is that Saarabas is not a female role and that would tie in with Aqun-Athlok idea. The Qunari treat mages more like things than people anyway (Saarabas literally means dangerous thing) but mages are used by the Antaam so maybe they are seen as male if specified at all. 

 

I don't know if there was a retcon or not but a lot of what Sten says does not make sense and it this seems deliberate to me. You can see threads and blog posts from years ago with the devs answering questions about the Qun and farther clarifying things Sten said. They obviously had more lore on the Qun than they put in Origins, was Aqun-Athlok part of that lore? I have no idea but to me it can easily fit with pretty much everything we have previously learned about the Qun. 

[NRieh]

 

He says that to people outside of the Qun in order to explain what an Aqun-Athlok is. Bull isn't like normal Qunari, he is a spy who knows how to interact with non Qunari in a way they will understand.

Once again. There's no need for an extra QUNARI word. He could've told something like 'we think he's a man because that's what he is a - a man and a warrior'. See the difference? Not 'a person, that is supposed to be one thing but is the other', but a 'man'.

 

As it is now - not only the Qun accepts the idea of switching the gender, but they have a common word for such a 'deviation'.  Qun had not dealt with 'but...'s until this moment. Seamus talks about his dead friend  'you were either worthy of his attention or not'. A Qunari mage from DAI prefers to 'live by the Qun' by dying. Arishok is extremely straightforward with his words and deeds. And of a sudden those people have a definition for something that 'is actually a woman, but lives like a man'?