256 réponses à ce sujet

[Kurogane335]

Once again. There's no need for an extra QUNARI word. He could've told something like 'we think he's a man because that's what he is a - a man and a warrior'. See the difference? Not 'a person, that is supposed to be one thing but is the other', but a 'man'.

 

As it is now - not only the Qun accepts the idea of switching the gender, but they have a common word for such a 'deviation'.  Qun had not dealt with 'but...'s until this moment. Seamus talks about his dead friend  'you were either worthy of his attention or not'. A Qunari mage from DAI prefers to 'live by the Qun' by dying. Arishok is extremely straightforward with his words and deeds. And of a sudden those people have a definition for something that 'is actually a woman, but lives like a man'?  

Of course there is a need for a specific word. Because the core tenet of the Qun is to name something correctly. An Aqun Athlok has the body of one gender and the mind of another, still, it is the mind that prevail. Therefore, he is different from others from his gender physically and to call him simply "a man/woman" wouldn't be the truth. he is Aqun Athlok : a man in the body of a woman, or a woman in the body of the man. Calling them a man would be like calling a Sten a Tamassran : wrong.

 

the concept of Aqun Athlok doesn't make the Qun ore humane or understandable. It makes it more alien, if you think about it. And it is fitting with what  we know of the Qun :

 

• Sten: Why are you here?
• Morrigan: Excuse me?
• Sten: Obviously you are no priestess. But shouldn't you be... running a shop, or a farm somewhere, rather than fighting?
• Morrigan: You think to tell me my place, Qunari? You are very brave.
• Sten: It is not done.
• Morrigan: But it is done. Do not be such a blind fool.
• Sten: I speak the truth. It is not I who am blind.
• Morrigan: Look around you, then. you see women throughout this land, fighters and mages both.
• Sten: That has yet to be proven.
• Morrigan: Which? That they fight? Or that they are female?
• Sten: Either.
• Morrigan: So I am not truly a woman to you? Hmm. 'Tis good to know.

[mikeymoonshine]

Once again. There's no need for an extra QUNARI word. He could've told something like 'we think he's a man because that's what he is a - a man and a warrior'. See the difference? Not 'a person, that is supposed to be one thing but is the other', but a 'man'.

 

As it is now - not only the Qun accepts the idea of switching the gender, but they have a common word for such a 'deviation'.  Qun had not dealt with 'but...'s until this moment. Seamus talks about his dead friend  'you were either worthy of his attention or not'. A Qunari mage from DAI prefers to 'live by the Qun' by dying. Arishok is extremely straightforward with his words and deeds. And of a sudden those people have a definition for something that 'is actually a woman, but lives like a man'?  

 

This argument is a bit of a non sequitur. The fact that the Quinari can tell the difference between a transwoman/man and a cis woman/man does not necessarily mean they believe you can switch genders. It just means they noticed that most women are born with vaginas and most men are born with penises and that those who aren't that way are rare.

[Kidd]

And pray tell why the priesthood would be telling you that you are of the opposite gender? They already know what gender you are because of the body parts you are born with. If they don't determine gender based on that, then we would see Qunari women among the Antaam, not just men. But that's not the case, is it?

According to Bull, we probably would if we had seen more Antaam. But we've not seen more than a few of them outside of DA2, where there was no female Qunari 3D model. There were no female dwarves in Kirkwall for the same reason - arguing there are no female dwarves in Kirkwall based on that is of course flawed reasoning.

Aqun Athlok would not be very common. Because transgender people in general aren't very common. There is nothing that hints that Qunari people are transgender more commonly than they are in our world, hence we wouldn't see them very often.

 

So by that logic, the priesthood doesn't give a sh!t about what the person thinks they are. They judge gender based on what body parts they have.

Bull does not agree and his words are not incompatible with Sten's. What you're saying now is not mentioned as such in canon. A person is forced into certain roles depending on their gender, yes. There are rigid gender roles, yes. But that does not mean the Qun is transphobic.

 

If Krem has functional female reproductive organs and is told by the Tamaasrans to have sex and give birth, he'll do it. If he won't, re-education or Qamek.

You may have a point here though. We have little insight on how reproduction works in Qunari society. It seems like Tamassran simply decide that specific people should copulate for the future of the Qun, and it may very well be possible Krem would be expected to bear children. He would likely not be bearing children as a woman as much as he would be doing it as a Qunari if that was the case, however. There is nothing that tells us Tamassran believe reproduction must happen between man and woman, after all. It's simply a demand of the Qun.

Quite horrific to think about to me as an IRL non-Qunari (edit: I realise this could be read the wrong way. I mean horrific to imagine a person being forced to become pregnant whether they want to or not, not that there's anything wrong with pregnant men). But it seems consistent with what we're taught. Of course it's also fully possible Krem would never be considered to carry a child if being pregnant is considered a female thing to do under the Qun. But as far as I know, there is no role such as "child-bearer" - people of all roles are picked out for reproduction.
 
 

Once again. There's no need for an extra QUNARI word. He could've told something like 'we think he's a man because that's what he is a - a man and a warrior'. See the difference? Not 'a person, that is supposed to be one thing but is the other', but a 'man'.
 
As it is now - not only the Qun accepts the idea of switching the gender, but they have a common word for such a 'deviation'.  Qun had not dealt with 'but...'s until this moment. Seamus talks about his dead friend  'you were either worthy of his attention or not'. A Qunari mage from DAI prefers to 'live by the Qun' by dying. Arishok is extremely straightforward with his words and deeds. And of a sudden those people have a definition for something that 'is actually a woman, but lives like a man'?

So you're saying this is unacceptable writing because of a language quirk you've identified, then?

[Iakus]

You mean like the memories of life in the Qun and life out of the Qun have begun to blur together in his mind? That would be a pretty neat story element actually. 

One of his conversation options you can ask him if he thinks about what Thedas would be like under the Qun.  He admits that he tries not to think about it, because there are people who wouldn't do so well under the Qun

[Dutchess]

 There is nothing that tells us Tamassran believe reproduction must happen between man and woman, after all. It's simply a demand of the Qun.

 

Alright then. I don't know how to argue with that. Such a statement is making my head hurt. I can only say that I doubt this sort of complexities were thought of by the writers. 

[Iakus]

To me that part sticks out more. Why do the Qunari not have female mages? This could mean that originally Qunari mages were only born male (before a retcon), it could mean that this was some sort of mistake on the part of the writer, it could mean that Sten doesn't really know or didn't care to answer properly. Another possibility is that Saarabas is not a female role and that would tie in with Aqun-Athlok idea. The Qunari treat mages more like things than people anyway (Saarabas literally means dangerous thing) but mages are used by the Antaam so maybe they are seen as male if specified at all. 

 

I don't know if there was a retcon or not but a lot of what Sten says does not make sense and it this seems deliberate to me. You can see threads and blog posts from years ago with the devs answering questions about the Qun and farther clarifying things Sten said. They obviously had more lore on the Qun than they put in Origins, was Aqun-Athlok part of that lore? I have no idea but to me it can easily fit with pretty much everything we have previously learned about the Qun. 

 

Well, as to the mages, Qunari call them saarabas "dangerous things"  So as a "thing" they are likely not considered male or female.

[Ryzaki]

Well, as to the mages, Qunari call them saarabas "dangerous things"  So as a "thing" they are likely not considered male or female.

 

Sten also calls them beasts. I think they're just considered wild dogs or something =/

[mikeymoonshine]

Well, as to the mages, Qunari call them saarabas "dangerous things"  So as a "thing" they are likely not considered male or female.

 

Yeah I would say that is most likely but that would Indicate that biological sex is not the most important factor in defining your role under the Qun. Sten most likely wasn't interested in explaining all of this to Wynne or he just didn't understand it all that well himself. Being a mage seems to be a bigger factor for deciding what you are than being born male or female is.

[mikeymoonshine]

Bull does not agree and his words are not incompatible with Sten's. What you're saying now is not mentioned as such in canon. A person is forced into certain roles depending on their gender, yes. There are rigid gender roles, yes. But that does not mean the Qun is transphobic.

 

Hmm honestly the Qun most likely still is transphobic because they only seem to accept it for reasons of practicality. I mean I assume a transman who wasn't particularly good at any of the male jobs would probably be given a female job and considered female. Would someone who couldn't fight or be some religious enforcer be allowed to be a man at all? Would someone who was better at fighting than baking be allowed to be a woman, even if they truly felt that they were one? 

 

Really all that is known is the Qun accepts transfolk when it is more useful for them to do so. 

[Iakus]

Sten also calls them beasts. I think they're just considered wild dogs or something =/

Not even that.  Living weapons.  Potential meat-suits for demons. 

 

Certainly not people.  Things.  Dangerous things.

[Ryzaki]

Not even that.  Living weapons.  Potential meat-suits for demons. 

 

Certainly not people.  Things.  Dangerous things.

 

ugh yeah.

 

I can see my mage giving Bull some side eye.

[Iakus]

ugh yeah.

 

I can see my mage giving Bull some side eye.

My Vashoth warrior did. 

 

His response was along the lines of "You aren't a bandit or killing civilians, so we don't have a problem"  I imagine he'd have a similar response for a mage.

 

Which tells me, he's got one foot out the door in leaving the Qun already.  He's way too accepting of things not of the Qun.

[Ryzaki]

My Vashoth warrior did. 

 

His response was along the lines of "You aren't a bandit or killing civilians, so we don't have a problem"  I imagine he'd have a similar response for a mage.

 

Which tells me, he's got one foot out the door in leaving the Qun already.  He's way too accepting of things not of the Qun.

 

True enough.

 

(Hey I'm just glad he's not all Tallis and "YOU'D DO SO WELL UNDER THE QUN!!!" I might've fried him).

[TurretSyndrome]

 

post
 

 

Okay, so I just watched the conversation with Iron Bull and his Charges. I noticed that he doesn't actually answer how the Qunari treat these Aqun Athlok. They call them by that name but beyond that nothing else. Check here if you like, he doesn't answer Krem's question.

 

Whether or not these people are common is irrelevant as how they would be treated in the Qun, is the more important question here. The fact that the priests decide who takes on what role, and the fact that Sten says no woman can be a warrior is canon enough to believe that women will not be in the Antaam. Of course, transgender people are still out in the open. We don't have enough evidence if the Qunari choose roles strictly based on their physical attributes or not, but nothing Bull says gives any evidence to the contrary. 

 

If we assume that Qunari choose roles strictly based on physical genders, then Krem will be judged as a woman whether he likes it or not, that is all I'm saying. I believe they do, because if they don't then they'd be making an exception for people like him. I never heard of roles changing mid way in the Qun because someone wishes to be treated differently than how they physically are(I mean no disrespect).

 

And specifically to the last part. What? What do you mean that reproduction need not happen between a man and a woman. Why would a man get pregnant? Krem would get pregnant because he has female reproductive organs. That's a weird angle you're looking at.

[leaguer of one]

Yet you are taking everything Bull says as gospel when he is just one Qunari out of two we've had as companions. Do you not find it just a tad bit hypocritical to say disregard what Sten tells you about the Qun but believe everything Bull says? And when did Bull become a priest because I sure as hell don't remember him saying he was.

Not at all.  Who's part of the priest hood here? And the Ben-Hassrath is an arm of the Ariqun.

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Ariqun

 

Am I'm not say to disregauard everything Sten say, I just say it a narrow view of the qun.

[Arakiel12409]

I never heard of roles changing mid way in the Qun because someone wishes to be treated differently than how they physically are(I mean no disrespect).

I understand it so that they do not change mid-way in the Qun.

When an imekari becomes 12, the Tamassrans assign it to the position they know the imekari will be most productive for the Qun. The later Qunari may assign himself to re-education to be assured of this decision, but he cannot leave the branch it has been assigned to (Qunari under the Arishok changing to the purview of the Ariqun). We know that it is possible for Qunari to advance or be demoted in their part of the Triumvirate (the Arishok/Aristen example comes to mind), so that will and can happen to them.

If the imekari is female, but physically skilled and a good fighter, but without the skills needed in the Ben-Hassrath, it will be Aqun-Athlok under the purview of the Arishok. Period. Whether it wants to or not is completly out of question. Whether it identifies as a woman or a man is out of question. The Tamassrans say that you go to the Antaam, or you get reeducated. Then you either accept your lot (Asit tal-eb) or Qamek awaits you.

The same with a male. If you are a male imekari with a talent for farming or organizing things, but without the skills needed in the priesthood, you are female. If you identify as a female, or wish to be treated differently because you are no biologically female is of no concern to them. The Tamassrans made their decisions, they know you best, you are now a girl. Congratulations.

 

In my eyes, it does not at all paint the Qun in a more positive or even tolerant light. You exist for the Qun, your own body (which is a mere shell to the demand that will be disposed like the carcass of an animal) tells you nothing about yourself, only the Qun and the Tamassrans who speak for it does that. Some, like Krem, will be lucky off, many others will not. I think its not unreasonable that most Aqun-Athlok become Tal'Vashoth or at least consider it at one point.

[TurretSyndrome]

 

If the imekari is female, but physically skilled and a good fighter, but without the skills needed in the Ben-Hassrath, it will be Aqun-Athlok under the purview of the Arishok. Period. Whether it wants to or not is completly out of question. Whether it identifies as a woman or a man is out of question. The Tamassrans say that you go to the Antaam, or you get reeducated. Then you either accept your lot (Asit tal-eb) or Qamek awaits you.

The same with a male. If you are a male imekari with a talent for farming or organizing things, but without the skills needed in the priesthood, you are female. If you identify as a female, or wish to be treated differently because you are no biologically female is of no concern to them. The Tamassrans made their decisions, they know you best, you are now a girl. Congratulations.

 

So a woman has to show the aptitude and the interest to become one now, instead of a "no women" sign like before. Sounds like a retcon to me, damn.

[In Exile]

So a woman has to show the aptitude and the interest to become one now, instead of a "no women" sign like before. Sounds like a retcon to me, damn.

No. It's not. You don't seem to get it. The Qun doesn't have a concept of biology like we have IRL. You become your role and were always your role the second they decide (or re-decide) the role. Sten was always and only meant to be a Sten until he became Arishok and then he was always and only mean to be Arishok. There is no "before" and no "choice".

A " woman" that can fight does not exist. If you can fight them you are a man. You cannot be anything others than a man. You were always a man. That's the logic. It's just a basic logical operation, which happens to be gibberish in terms of biology. To Sten the does not compute comes from your insisting that you are a woman (since woman -> not warrior) and a warrior (since warrior -> man) and the premise that a person is either but not both of a man or a woman.

You're confusing the inherently hypocritical and inconsistent nature of the Qun with the consequence of the philosophy.

[9TailsFox]

I understand it so that they do not change mid-way in the Qun.

When an imekari becomes 12, the Tamassrans assign it to the position they know the imekari will be most productive for the Qun. The later Qunari may assign himself to re-education to be assured of this decision, but he cannot leave the branch it has been assigned to (Qunari under the Arishok changing to the purview of the Ariqun). We know that it is possible for Qunari to advance or be demoted in their part of the Triumvirate (the Arishok/Aristen example comes to mind), so that will and can happen to them.

If the imekari is female, but physically skilled and a good fighter, but without the skills needed in the Ben-Hassrath, it will be Aqun-Athlok under the purview of the Arishok. Period. Whether it wants to or not is completly out of question. Whether it identifies as a woman or a man is out of question. The Tamassrans say that you go to the Antaam, or you get reeducated. Then you either accept your lot (Asit tal-eb) or Qamek awaits you.

The same with a male. If you are a male imekari with a talent for farming or organizing things, but without the skills needed in the priesthood, you are female. If you identify as a female, or wish to be treated differently because you are no biologically female is of no concern to them. The Tamassrans made their decisions, they know you best, you are now a girl. Congratulations.

 

In my eyes, it does not at all paint the Qun in a more positive or even tolerant light. You exist for the Qun, your own body (which is a mere shell to the demand that will be disposed like the carcass of an animal) tells you nothing about yourself, only the Qun and the Tamassrans who speak for it does that. Some, like Krem, will be lucky off, many others will not. I think its not unreasonable that most Aqun-Athlok become Tal'Vashoth or at least consider it at one point.

It was fun reading. And confusing.

[Nefla]

It would have been so much more interesting to have Iron Bull be in denial (or even lingering brainwashing effects) about how great the Qun is and how it would treat his friend with decency and respect instead of forcing him into the role of "woman" and making him a baker or shopkeeper and forcing him to give birth than suddenly portraying the Qun as modern, accepting, and laid back.

 

In previous games we were told women can never be warriors: Sten can see that your female warden has a female body but doesn't say "oh you must be an aqun athlok" he flat out denies any possibility that female and warrior can go together.

Leliana: Do you mean your people have no female mages or warriors?
Sten: Of course not. Why would our women wish to be men?

 

The Qunari brainwash you if you falter from their plan, control who you have children with and force you into sex and pregnancy no matter what you want, they also steal your children away after birth and if you have sex for love you can look forward to even more brainwashing. They keep mages in torturous conditions with their minds so broken that they can't even live on their own without someone controlling their every action. You're a cog in the machine and if you're slightly out of alignment they hammer you back into place.

 

With the way Iron Bull tells it however: there are crazy orgies with the Tamassrans whenever you want, they seem to act as prostitutes for the horny. (as long as you don't love them it's ok...?) You want to change genders? Sure, the Qun is totally ok with that! (just don't try to have a different job than the one they assign you) Solas, Dorian, and Vivienne would do poorly under the Qun because of their attitudes, oh those silly guys. (no mention of the fact that if they weren't killed immediately after the war for being mages, they'd have their eyes and mouths sewn shut and be grafted into a metal contraption that makes "the man in the iron mask" look merciful)

 

The Qun was interesting because it was so totalitarian and unpalatable BUT when seen from the perspective of someone who had no chance such as a former elven slave from Tevinter or the two elves in Kirkwall who killed a guard for raping their sister it's a definite step up. Now it's "hey guys we're just like you except we pick your job for you and do some inconsistent things that don't make sense from any perspective."

[Ryzaki]

I don't see how people found DAO's Qun something that was going to stay they way it was.

 

It was completely implausible. The only way it could've functioned was if Qunari were massively mentally and physically different from every single race in Thedas. (Little to no libido, easily brainwashed, etc.) they aren't.

[Iakus]

I don't see how people found DAO's Qun something that was going to stay they way it was.

 

It was completely implausible. The only way it could've functioned was if Qunari were massively mentally and physically different from every single race in Thedas. (Little to no libido, easily brainwashed, etc.) they aren't.

Well, that's just it though.  Elves and dwarves already had their Tolkienesque tropes stood on their head.  The Qunari were truly original, an unknown quantity.  They're from an unknown land, with a completely alien mindset and a mysterious past.  They're not human, so they don't necessarily have the values, mentality,  or priorities of a human.

[Laughing_Man]

No. It's not. You don't seem to get it. The Qun doesn't have a concept of biology like we have IRL. You become your role and were always your role the second they decide (or re-decide) the role. Sten was always and only meant to be a Sten until he became Arishok and then he was always and only mean to be Arishok. There is no "before" and no "choice".

A " woman" that can fight does not exist. If you can fight them you are a man. You cannot be anything others than a man. You were always a man. That's the logic. It's just a basic logical operation, which happens to be gibberish in terms of biology. To Sten the does not compute comes from your insisting that you are a woman (since woman -> not warrior) and a warrior (since warrior -> man) and the premise that a person is either but not both of a man or a woman.

You're confusing the inherently hypocritical and inconsistent nature of the Qun with the consequence of the philosophy.

 

I don't think so. If what you are saying is correct, the Qun would not have words that make distinction between genders.

Instead they would have used only the role names: Warrior, Builder, Priest (not priestess mind you, that is included in the role of priesthood), perhaps "Breeder" and "Incubator" (or something) for the different roles in reproduction, etc.

 

The point is, if gender is just background noise and and it's all about the roles, then there would be no genders, only Qunari that are born with differences in anatomy.

 

But clearly, this is not the case.

 

 

I don't see how people found DAO's Qun something that was going to stay they way it was.

 

It was completely implausible. The only way it could've functioned was if Qunari were massively mentally and physically different from every single race in Thedas. (Little to no libido, easily brainwashed, etc.) they aren't.

 

I don't really see why not. The libido thing is easily "taken care of" in one way or another, that's not a real issue, if through random sex between people that need their itch scratched, or the use of chemicals. And yeah, it's canon that there is a lot of mind-washing and mind-rape under the Qun, that's not really new and was seen after DA:O.

[thats1evildude]

You see tolerance, I still see oppression.

 

Oh, I'm a lousy warrior with an interest in agriculture or commerce, but I can't become a farmer or a merchant unless I declare myself to be a woman? Gee, thanks. What freedom. Yeehaw.

[TurretSyndrome]

No. It's not. You don't seem to get it.

 

Oh no, I totally got it. Just feels like a retcon now.