43 réponses à ce sujet

[phoenix fang55]

I'm working my way up to promoting my legionare and was thinking towards my next build with him, I'm not concerened with passives, as I'm fairly decent at fitting which ones I really need in, my question though, is what actives should I go for.

 

Shieldwall is a must, obviously

Walking fortress (I think thats what its called, makes you invulnerable for several seconds) is also a must.

 

But after that, what should I go with

warcry is decent, but I honestly feel that conterstrike is so much better

 

Right now my thoughts are to go Shieldwall, walking fortress, counterstrike, and something else, maybe payback strike.

[almond_tea]

There is a huge amount of information about this in this forums.

[actionhero112]

I hate payback strike, just because the upgrade is super buggy and never stuns for me. 

 

I'm partial to To the Death. though I'm a sucker for team damage bonuses. 

 

I also really like lunge and slash. 

[21T09]

I would still take Warcry. With the Cutting Words passive, it becomes a great team-wide buff, that you can use at least twice as often as counterstrike.

[Frenrihr]

With mine i have both spells that give you armor when near enemies, shield wall and walking fortress, ultimate tank, i tried the other one ability that gives you counter and full guard but it sucks, 60 second cool down, not worth it.

[21T09]

With mine i have both spells that give you armor when near enemies, shield wall and walking fortress, ultimate tank, i tried the other one ability that gives you counter and full guard but it sucks, 60 second cool down, not worth it.

Generating guard is fine, but in my opinion, generating aggro is the most important thing for the tank.

[Shinnyshin]

Shieldwall is a must, obviously

Walking fortress (I think thats what its called, makes you invulnerable for several seconds) is also a must.

 

But after that, what should I go with

warcry is decent, but I honestly feel that conterstrike is so much better

 

Right now my thoughts are to go Shieldwall, walking fortress, counterstrike, and something else, maybe payback strike.

Shield Wall is actually a huge trap and none of the solid Legionnaire players take it on Perilous--the only difficulty you really bring a Legionnaire for.  Warcry, Countestrike, Fortress, and a 4th of choice--usually Payback Strike--are the way to go.  If you'd like more information about any of those abilities or the exclusion of Shield Wall, I'd be happy to give.

 

 

With mine i have both spells that give you armor when near enemies, shield wall and walking fortress, ultimate tank, i tried the other one ability that gives you counter and full guard but it sucks, 60 second cool down, not worth it.

 

 

It's easily one of the best skills in the game.  Cooldown is...pretty much never actually 60 seconds, especially if you ditch Shield Wall.  More like 20-30.

[SLooPPy JOE]

If you plan on bringing him to perilous, then you want something like
Payback Strike
To The Death
Walking Fortress
Counterstrike

If you're on threatening because it's difficult (>level 20 gear) then do the same build. If you're playing a mode that you're over geared for then powers like Lunge and Slash and Shield Bash will seem really good when they're really not.
War Cry and Unbowed are great but they don't keep you alive like To the Death and drawing aggro with Counterstrike lets you "tank" on big waves of enemies. Don't be fooled by the cooldown. You'll cut that down with Walking Fortress and Flow of Battle.

[DozenMarks]

Yep, Shield Wall isn't that great for Legionnaire in the long run once you get used to other abilities and can sustain yourself better.

 

Payback Strike is also awesome.  I don't care much myself for the upgrade, but the attack itself still has that nice property of immediately getting you out of CC.  Knocked down?  Payback Strike to get right back to your feet.  Panic'd by Demon Commander shout?  Instant Payback Strike to be able to move again so you aren't just a sitting duck.

 

Counterstrike also has uses outside of fights.  Unlike stuff like War Cry where you have to actually hit targets to gain Guard as an effect, you can just use Counterstrike wherever you please and insta-Guard.  I like using it as soon as a match starts to fill up and it'll be off cooldown by the time you reach the second group of enemies, since the first group is usually just 2-3 enemies that aren't hard and you won't need it there anyway.  The moment you clear a Zone and are transitioning, especially if you're going to run around grabbing any missed pots is a decent time to fill up if you're low and not waste much time, too.

 

Currently using War Cry as my fourth, but according to an Amelia post yesterday the full Armor bonus wears off after just 4 seconds and starts to get worse until it's gone.  Not sure I'll keep using it forever anymore when over half the time it's not as effective as it says it is.  I'll probably end up eventually switching to To the Death to help get rid of Commanders and other big threats faster.

[orskar]

I'm planning to run counterstrike, walking fortress and to the death cycled constantly for non-stop guard with payback strike thrown in to give you some damage. Hadn't considered combining them all together until I saw that vid of the solo perilous run with them on.

 

war cry + unbowed + walking fortress seems the most straightforward though and is perfectly fine. my previous legionnaire runs I usually ended up dropping shield wall as you rarely had cause to block (only time it had use was for tanking demon commander dive attack instead of dodging). still can't decide whether payback strike or shield bash is better here. payback has aoe knockback but shield bash can detonate. tend to lean towards payback since you can get out of stuns.

[Torkelight]

For perilous I do:

Counterstrike

To the death

War cry

Walking fortress.

Also, flow of battle and extra team damage versus taunt is mandatory I think. Might also add extra armor when you have guard, you cant be flanked and extra defence versus ranged from the front.

You should also either have a good % to crit chance weapon (moon axe or firm tournament axe), or the very least rings. I'm now testing out Caliban (which makes you able to drop the HoK ring), with double 10% crit chance rings. Not sure if they stack properly though. I cant really tell. Can someone confirm this?

Two AOE taunts, and while tanking large groups your walking fortress will most likely be off CD when it drops. Your group should be able to take care of the rest really. For large enemies you cast to the death. While hitting targeted enemy you are also practically invulerable, as you will generate more guard than you loose. Shield wall is ok, but useless on perilous, as blocking seems futile when needed anyway. Payback strike is an option instead of war cry, it is good for some extra damage, knockdown/stun, interrupt and getting out of debilitation - but I prefer to have another ability that removes aggro from team mates, and let them do the most of the damage. Alas, having caliban and crit chance rings does help a lot as far as damage goes.

Also leveling up cunning will help your tank a lot, obviously - thanks to flow of battle.

[Frenrihr]

I disagree with all the counter strike love, shield wall is just better, has no cd and you actually get to use your stamina, going to counter strike even prevents you from taking some of the good passives of the first tree, i tried both and im not going back to counter strike ever.

 

But whatever because if you have barrier you can pretty much tank even with a cloth class.

[Drasca]

I disagree with all the counter strike love

 

Someone doesn't understand the awesomeness of the CS/WF combo for near zero cd's and persistent invincibility. That someone isn't Torkelight. I love shield wall, but it isn't required when I am invincible almost all the time.

[Torkelight]

I disagree with all the counter strike love, shield wall is just better, has no cd and you actually get to use your stamina, going to counter strike even prevents you from taking some of the good passives of the first tree, i tried both and im not going back to counter strike ever.

 

But whatever because if you have barrier you can pretty much tank even with a cloth class.

I couldnt get shield wall to work the way I wanted it to at all on perilous, as I used it a lot on threatening difficulty with great success. So i dropped maybe my favorite skill for something else. And also, why not counterstrike AND shield wall? You know counterstrike is the most effective AOE taunt right? Also it gives you full guard and a short period of dodges....

[Beerfish]

No love for shield bash?

[Shinnyshin]

I disagree with all the counter strike love, shield wall is just better, has no cd and you actually get to use your stamina, going to counter strike even prevents you from taking some of the good passives of the first tree, i tried both and im not going back to counter strike ever.

 

But whatever because if you have barrier you can pretty much tank even with a cloth class.

Barrier isn't always enough vs Red Templars on Perilous.  But anyways, there're two parts of your statement I'm going to address: that Shield Wall is good and that Counterstrike isn't worth it.  I'm going to pull together a few things I've written about this, each with their own fonts.  Warning, they might be rather long...but think it'll be worth it since you've said a few things along these lines.

 

About Shield Wall: 

 

In theory, Shield Wall sounds pretty good. You spend Stamina to convert incoming damage to Guard at the cost of not attacking as often--which, since you're a tank class shouldn't really be a problem, right? Ideally, you'd blow your cooldowns getting aggro and then turtle with Shield Wall until that comes back up, getting a few attacks in here or there. But here's where it all falls apart.

On Perilous, enemies can do absurd amounts of damage in flurries of attacks that tear through all your Stamina and all your Guard in almost no time, especially with the current armor bug--though it was only slightly better before. Red Templars are especially cruel but all factions have things that can make your life a living hell. So when your Shield Wall collapses, you have to desperately hope your cooldowns are up and you can cycle them. The more damage enemies do, the faster everything falls apart for you...and Perilous is where they do the most damage. A Knight can potentially 1-shot you through full guard or come really, really close. And an empowered Horror with homing shots can do the same.

On Perilous, the only reliable way for a Lego to tank is to rely on true invulnerability. Walking Fortress has an 8 second duration and essentially a 24 second cooldown (since it goes on CD the minute you pop, not when invulnerability ends). So your entire playstyle really has to be around maximizing that invulnerability--and the main way you do that is through Flow of Battle. Every time you crit, you get -1s to your cooldowns (something Shield Wall doesn't benefit from). So if, during those 8 seconds, you get hit by 12 enemies and get 12 crits, you can go infinite on Walking Fortress. Even if you don't quite go infinite, you can pop War Cry and then kite to buy you that crucial last second--something that's not quite an option if you're out of Stamina from Shield Wall.

This isn't as hard as it sounds for a number of reasons. First of all, it seems Counterstrike damage can crit and gives you cooldown. Also, it seems like Runes crit independently of weapons and also give you cooldown--though both of these are really, really hard to test. And Axes, which usually come with +crit chance stats, have insane attack speed.

What this means is that the tankiest Legionnaire is one who constantly attacks like a madman, desperate for crits. Funny enough, you often have an easier time with huge groups than a few enemies since it's really, really easy to go infinite on Fortress vs a huge crowd since you can hit 2-5 people per swing. You get Payback Strike for free, it has a huge arc and can easily hit 3-5 people with a bit of care meaning 3-5 potential crits with 1 attack, and it cleanses CC. If you're kiting/attacking for cooldowns, not being able to attack for even two seconds could mean you don't get Walking Fortress up in time...and Payback allows you to recover from that easily. Plus if you need to dodge attacks while waiting for cooldowns--another mark against Shield Wall, by the way, since you can just dodge a good chunk of damage--then cleansing the CC is absolutely invaluable.

 

Overall, converting Stamina to Guard while reducing incoming damage is much less good when you already have 2 other abilities that do very similar things but often better. Counterstrike directly reduces incoming damage by CCing people who attack you and autofills guard, War Cry often autofills guard and is being spammed a great deal. Both provide a lot of team utility and a +20% AoE team damage bonus.

 

 

About Counterstrike:

 

Counterstrike gives you full guard and hard-taunts every single enemy within line of sight.  Using it even once in a fight practically ensures your allies' safety--especially from the dreaded Horrors/Knights/Wraiths/Archers, which you can't really cover with just War Cry.  Considering that inability to control enemy ranged (or DC) threat is probably the #1 reason for all wipes, that alone seems like good reason to take it.  It also gives 100% guard and guarantees each and every enemy will be attacking you at a predictable time, multiplying the value of your Walking Fortress and often enabling you to go infinite on that skill.  The cooldown is frequently listed as the largest downside and 60s does seem daunting on paper.  Until you play Legionnaire a few times and realize how little a 60s cooldown means.  Especially if you leave off Shield Wall, as discussed above.  If you can successfully chain Walking Fortresses, something it's very easy to do 2-4 times in big fights, you get Counterstrike back almost instantly and reassert your control.  Furthermore, Counterstrike synergizes incredibly well with the rest of your kit.  War Cry's short range is its major weak point...but if the enemies are already clustered up on you from Counterstrike then you can just regularly War Cry to maintain control of huge chunks of the enemy complete with Cutting Words's damage buff.  Want to get a bunch of enemies near you to abuse Flow of Battle with?  Counterstrike.  Want to get attacked so you can spam Payback Strike knockdowns?  Counterstrike.

 

What's more, it's not even a "waste" of points to go that far down the tree.  The passive point right before Counterstrike is Unyielding, undeniably one of the best passives out there.  You pretty much have to go for that if you play Perilous, so at that point not popping the 1 extra point into Counterstrike seems a bit silly

As a Legionnaire, your own survival really isn't a huge issue.  You're probably going to live unless things are going horribly wrong--stopping to rez people is probably the most common reason for your demise.  So, unlike with Archer for example, the survival of your team is what determines how well you do.  And Counterstrike is the ultimate ability for allowing your team to survive.  Passing it up, imo, bespeaks a fundamental lack of understanding as to what the Legionnaire is being played for.

 

 

[phoenix fang55]

I'd like to thank all of you that have responded, I'm getting a few ideas for what to try, and even had my first true taste of Peri tonight, mind you it was on my hunter with a griffon bow and a really good keeper. So I'm getting ideas for what is needed.

 

Counterstrike is definitely on my list to get as just being able to pop that at the beginnning of a match and start with full guard is amazing.

 

Is Shield wall as much of a trap on the templar? Or do Peri Templars need it as they don't have invulnerability?

[orskar]

shield wall is needed on templar imo as you're not really playing her as a tank, more a mob destroyer. she can't abuse guard and invincibility like legionnaire and so can't take too much aggro so the shield wall helps a lot when fighting the stragglers from your combo or anyone immune to it. Once you got your combo off, there isn't usually many enemies left anyway, so you can get away with abusing shield wall.

[RuhRoh235]

I play quite a bit of perilous and I like both Shield Wall an C/S. My first few cycles using the Legionnaire didn't include C/S. That was a mistake. I think the critical abilities are war cry (with the passive next to it), wf, and c/s. Your 4th is up to you. I want to try to the death but havent yet.

 

I use one superb crit ring as I do not believe they stack but could be wrong. I also have Caliban, which is ridiculous because when my health is lost, I can still go infinite, generate full guard, and then start to gain back life at a large clip.

[DrKilledbyDeath]

Anyone with thoughts on the neccessity of war cry if you have a moon axe? Can you swap that move for something else, seeing as the weapon proc goes off at a pretty good rate?

[Torkelight]

Anyone with thoughts on the neccessity of war cry if you have a moon axe? Can you swap that move for something else, seeing as the weapon proc goes off at a pretty good rate?

Moon axe doesnt proc war cry. It procs horn of valor. War cry taunts, horn of valor buffs the whole party.

[DrKilledbyDeath]

Moon axe doesnt proc war cry. It procs horn of valor. War cry taunts, horn of valor buffs the whole party.

Scrub life, getting my moves mixed up. I really need to pay attention to names rather than know war cry as "that taunt move" thanks Torkelight lol

[Torkelight]

Scrub life, getting my moves mixed up. I really need to pay attention to names rather than know war cry as "that taunt move" thanks Torkelight lol

You are welcome!

[DrKilledbyDeath]

I hate how the horns do different things. I was playing my reaver the other day and using her horn in a build for the first time. I went through a match forgetting it wasn't a buff until I looked at the description afterwards. I can imagine my group wondering why the heck I was using a fear with no enemies around me.

[Aegore]

I'm working my way up to promoting my legionare and was thinking towards my next build with him, I'm not concerened with passives, as I'm fairly decent at fitting which ones I really need in, my question though, is what actives should I go for.

 

Shieldwall is a must, obviously

Walking fortress (I think thats what its called, makes you invulnerable for several seconds) is also a must.

 

But after that, what should I go with

warcry is decent, but I honestly feel that conterstrike is so much better

 

Right now my thoughts are to go Shieldwall, walking fortress, counterstrike, and something else, maybe payback strike.

 

I have a build I easily tank with on Perilous without taking damage and I do not use shield wall because there is so many better skills to use to build guard that you can use while fighting.

 

Payback strike

War Cry (guard generator & aoe taunt)

Walking Fortress (guard generator)

Counterstrike (guard generator)

 

If you have cooldown reduction it helps but if you use your abilities the right way there is absolutely no way to kill you or your party since you will have all aggro.