169 réponses à ce sujet

[Hiemoth]

I kind of love how so many voicing their disapproval at the mere thought of someone finding this discomforting. In a way I would love to see a Venn diagram how those same people felt about Anders hitting on their male characters. And by the way, this scenario has nothing to with the game being or not being dark fantasy, I do not comprehend the concept that somehow sexual acts are the divining line in that.

 

As for the scene itself, I doubt that it was the only reason that they didn't go with the original plan for the quest line, as it would have been easily fixed. It probably came up at an earlier discussion and then later on they decided to change the whole quest line for logistic reasons, but the designers are probably more capable of answering that. And yeah, I can easily see why some would find it discomforting, as to me it is a similar situation with some websites posting Facebook images of attractive people for pornographic use or, as for that one site, thanking them for providing the release, so to speak. Nothing was physically done to these people, but their appearances were used for sexual purposes without their approval. I don't think it is difficult to understand why that concept would make some uncomfortable.

[o Ventus]

I know right? People always seem to forget about rights for straight white males. Does my head in.

It has nothing to do with pandering to straight white males, it has to do with doing or not doing something that looks like a good or interesting idea, just because it might offend someone.

 

It's a video game. Who gives a f**k if it might offend a woman or a black person. It's a work of fiction and doesn't mean the author or painter or whatever condones the "offensive" activities.

 

Taking a scene out on the basis of "ehh, some women might be uncomfortable here" (when the scene in question has nothing at all to do with women and occurs regardless of the player being a man or woman) absolutely IS pandering to feminist SJWs.

[ManchesterUnitedFan1]

It has nothing to do with pandering to straight white males, it has to do with doing or not doing something that looks like a good or interesting idea, just because it might offend someone.

 

It's a video game. Who gives a f**k if it might offend a woman or a black person. It's a work of fiction and doesn't mean the author or painter or whatever condones the "offensive" activities.

 

Taking a scene out on the basis of "ehh, some women might be uncomfortable here" (when the scene in question has nothing at all to do with women and occurs regardless of the player being a man or woman) absolutely IS pandering to feminist SJWs.

 

The concern is not whether it affects women specifically. The concern is that it may psychologically trigger women OR men - a very very real thing for sufferers of ptsd - into having dangerous mental health episodes.

[o Ventus]

The concern is not whether it affects women specifically. The concern is that it may psychologically trigger women OR men - a very very real thing for sufferers of ptsd - into having dangerous mental health episodes.

It's explicitly mentioned that the change came in because it made women uncomfortable.

 

Do you actually know somebody who has PTSD? Because something like the proposed quest idea shouldn't be triggering anything. PTSD doesn't work like Hollywood is so fond of showing it, where someone comes home from a war, and goes on a killing spree after seeing fireworks go off on Independence Day because they go bang. People who suffer from mental illness are still people, you don't have to cater to their every whim.

[NRieh]

I love how people 100% ignore the original DG's comment about the reasons behind taking this out from game and just keep on bitching..... 
 
So. let me just put it here. I guess people who write should be able to read, right? 
 

I feel I should mention:
The scene was not changed solely because the potential violation could be interpreted as problematic. Yes, that is an issue…but it is an issue of the writer getting across intention. You’re unlikely to ever account for all possible interpretations, but you do have to consider how easy a leap it is for some and whether those interpretations could ultimately distract from what you’re trying to communicate.

I mentioned that in the peer review we discussed ways that the scene could still be done, in order to keep its original intention intact. Something being problematic does not mean it should not be done at all (yes, I’m aware there are people who would outright disagree; I’m talking from a writer’s perspective), but more that you should not do it without knowing what you’re getting into and why.

In this case, the writer felt the road to making the scene work was too far to travel for too little return. Creepy and intriguing in its potential outcomes, yes, but ultimately it distracted from what he was trying to do with the plot as a whole — and thus he scrapped it. 

(source)

[Nefla]

Why couldn't they have just kept it like it was except without the seduction part? She and other characters could still be trying to win your trust and ask probing questions and I have ALWAYS wanted the fade to trick me the fade tricks every other character but not the player.

[ManchesterUnitedFan1]

It's explicitly mentioned that the change came in because it made women uncomfortable.

 

Do you actually know somebody who has PTSD? Because something like the proposed quest idea shouldn't be triggering anything. PTSD doesn't work like Hollywood is so fond of showing it, where someone comes home from a war, and goes on a killing spree after seeing fireworks go off on Independence Day because they go bang. People who suffer from mental illness are still people, you don't have to cater to their every whim.

 

Because the women on the writing team were the ones to raise the concern. Women are educated about the dangers or rape more, and are far more likely to be raped, so it makes sense that the complain comes from them more often. That does not mean it's only been removed for female sufferers of ptsd.

 

..obviously I don't think it's like a hollywood portrayal. Then I would hardly be referring to rape as causing ptsd: in hollywood ptsd is very much the domain of straight male soldiers.

 

As I say, there exists a large amount of scientific evidence that triggering ptsd does happen, and that rape can cause ptsd.

 

Add in the fact that rape is completely unchosen by definition, unlike modern western warfare in the west, and that is why the issue should be treated so sensitively.

[KaiserShep]

If I was writing a story, and felt that what I was trying to say got obscured by certain imagery and was poorly received in a group review, I'd probably scrap it too, because I'd feel like I was wasting my time, which I pretty much would be.

[Iakus]

I love how people 100% ignore the original DG's comment about the reasons behind taking this out from game and just keep on bitching..... 
 
So. let me just put it here. I guess people who write should be able to read, right? 
 

 

And the reasoning makes sense.  The Envy demon isn't trying to tempt the Inquisitor, but to replace him/her.  Such a scene really doesn't advance such an outcome.  SO yes, too far to travel for too little return.

 

But in addition, it liekly would have been disturbing to a lot of players.  Not necesarilly for the Leliana angle, but for the fact that the Envy demon was in fact trying to rape the Inquisitor (male or female) using Leliana's image.

[Isaidlunch]

I struggle to see how this is anywhere close to violating Leliana, unless people assumed she was possessed instead of it being a copy. If anyone is getting violated in that situation it's the Inquisitor.

 

I think it could've been interesting but honestly, I'd prefer anything over what we got. The way demons like the envy and nightmare demons were depicted in DAI was boring. They're not intimidating or scary at all, they're just there to be in your way and say mean things much like every other villain in the game. It's a shame to see one of the best parts of the setting being wasted like this.

[Iakus]

I struggle to see how this is anywhere close to violating Leliana, unless people assumed she was possessed instead of it being a copy. If anyone is getting violated in that situation it's the Inquisitor.

 

EXACTLY!

 

ALthough ultimately I did like the Envy and nightmare demons.  They were far mor einteresting than the mooks we beat up around the rifts.

[Darkly Tranquil]

So what about this original plan has to do with women being uncomfortable? Seems to me like most rational people, of either sex or gender, would be uncomfortable.

You make it sound like that would be a bad thing. Making the player feel uncomfortable would be a great change up and really drive home the horror that demons embody.

[o Ventus]

Because the women on the writing team were the ones to raise the concern. Women are educated about the dangers or rape more, and are far more likely to be raped, so it makes sense that the complain comes from them more often. That does not mean it's only been removed for female sufferers of ptsd.

 

Except the very first words on the tumblr (because of course it would be on tumblr) are--

 

During the review, the female members of the peer group mentioned how uncomfortable it made them feel…and because that wasn’t the writer’s intention, he ended up changing it.

 

 

 

 

As I say, there exists a large amount of scientific evidence that triggering ptsd does happen, and that rape can cause ptsd.

 

I don't think anybody contested that triggers are real, or that rape survivors would have PTSD. That said, rape survivors, people with PTSD, and people who suffer 99% other kinds of mental illness (again), are still people. Unless they're somehow unaware that the game they are playing is a work of fiction, it shouldn't be triggering anything. 99.9999999999999% of real-life triggers don't occur from movies or games or songs or other consumer media. There's a reason why soldiers who contract PTSD from combat are recommended to play games like Call of Duty or Battlefield, because the fictional presentations allow the sufferer to cope with their trauma in a safe environment.

[o Ventus]

You make it sound like that would be a bad thing. Making the player feel uncomfortable would be a great change up and really drive home the horror that demons embody.

It's not a bad thing. If it were to be done correctly, it would be great. Just based on what we know about it, I think I would have enjoyed going through the original idea more than the current version.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

The concern is not whether it affects women specifically. The concern is that it may psychologically trigger women OR men - a very very real thing for sufferers of ptsd - into having dangerous mental health episodes.

 

Then let's remove all violence as well, after all, it might cause someone to get a PTSD flashback.

[Ryzaki]

I kind of wish that they kept the part of that scene where the Envy Demon tricks you into thinking that you already won.

 

Yeah that could've been awesome. I don't care about the Leliana part but being all WHOOO WE DID IT! Just for a sinister voice to whisper "no you didn't" would've been awesome. 

[KaiserShep]

It might have been better if it was Envy-Cassandra, and we actually failed the mission miserably, the followers (as in the people of Haven) no longer want anything to do with you, and she was taking this opportunity to position herself as the leader of the Inquisition, with the support of mother Gisselle.

[Ranadiel Marius]

DA:I was always going to be a SJW heaven thanks to Gaider and his feminist pandering, so does this really surprise anyone?

I know right, I mean diversity? Really, it upsets the natural balance of the universe. Too much of it and SOGGIES MAY RULE!!!!!11111111111oneoneoneone

[Iakus]

Yeah that could've been awesome. I don't care about the Leliana part but being all WHOOO WE DID IT! Just for a sinister voice to whisper "no you didn't" would've been awesome. 

 

See that might have been cool.

 

But then it's also kinda done with In Your Heart Shall Burn where you close up the Breach, then Haven gets stepped on by Coryphypants.

[Zered]

Another good idea cut. Bah!

 

I like how Origins had this dark fantasy feel, Inquisition tries to have it but fails.

[Ryzaki]

See that might have been cool.

 

But then it's also kinda done with In Your Heart Shall Burn where you close up the Breach, then Haven gets stepped on by Coryphypants.

 

Oh yeah that would've been a thematic repeat. Hm...

 

That said I do wish the Envy sequence probed into your PC's past. That at least would've been godly for RP potential. Especially if it was based on what you said to Josephine earlier.

 

And then Envy tries to use that to make a fake you to react to Cory's plans and you can accept or reject it's accuracy.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

It might have been better if it was Envy-Cassandra, and we actually failed the mission miserably, the followers (as in the people of Haven) no longer want anything to do with you, and she was taking this opportunity to position herself as the leader of the Inquisition, with the support of mother Gisselle.

 

If one was willing to pour enough time and resources into the scene, one could make the Envy demon's apperance be based on whoever the character has flirted with the most before hand. In case no one was flirted with or there are multiple characters that were flirted with equally, it would either resort to a default apperance or random.

 

Sorry if idea has already been posted.

[justafan]

So it looks to me that this is a good case of peer review.  From the article, it appears that at one point in Champions of the Just, you don't know you are in a mind game, and Envy takes the form of Leliana and tries to seduce you.  Now he does't clarify on the scene, and if the Inquisitor clearly knew it was a demon but went ahead with the sex anyways, then whatever.  However, if the scene made it seem like the Inquisitor genuinely thought the demon was Leliana, then according to most civilized countries, that is a form of rape.

 

If the second option was the case, then I would totally get why peer reviewers would have issue with it.  It might very well be that the intent was that it wasn't supposed to come of as rape (see the comedy Revenge of the Nerds where the same situation is played for laughs), but the final result really did have some dark implications that it seems were not addressed in the first draft.  However, I find it odd that their concern was not that there was a rape scene, but that they were concerned with how this would affect your relationship with the real Leliana, who quite clearly was not involved in the scenario at all.  Either way, regardless of who pointed this out, or what gender they were, I for one am happy I didn't have to deal with a throwaway rape scene in a game I play primarily for entertaining characters, cool magic fights, and dragon killing.

 

Now had they really expanded on the encounter, calling it what it was and letting you decide how it affected your character and their relationship with Leliana or others, then that's fine.  I'm not against video games tackling dark subjects, but I am against them including those subjects by accident.

[KaiserShep]

If one was willing to pour enough time and resources into the scene, one could make the Envy demon's apperance be based on whoever the character has flirted with the most before hand. In case no one was flirted with or there are multiple characters that were flirted with equally, it would either resort to a default apperance or random.

Sorry if idea has already been posted.

It could work, considering that the only relevant characters that can be flirted with are Cassandra and Cullen. But in my example, gender specificity isn't important since it's more about leadership and giving the failure of a Herald a hard time.