169 réponses à ce sujet

[DarkAmaranth1966]

And if you're a male toon, just found out you just slept with the Envy demon rather than Leliana?  Wouldn't that have been any different?

No, other than I'd be reminding myself not to be a stereotypical horny male. And FYI I play only male Inquisitors so, either way. From what I read, whether you know it's a demon or not, you consent. How is that rape? Deception yes but not rape - there is a difference.

 

"I wanted to because I didn't know you weren't Lelianna."

is NOT the same as...

"I said no, foul demon, but you took me anyway."

[Johanna]

There's a reason why soldiers who contract PTSD from combat are recommended to play games like Call of Duty or Battlefield, because the fictional presentations allow the sufferer to cope with their trauma in a safe environment.

So rape survivors should play the Brood mother bits in DA:O and Awakenings to help them heal? I don't know whether to laugh or cry, so I choose to laugh.

[Sylvianus]

It's been a long time that I feared the franchise would lose its creativity, the next Bioware's games totally sanitized and becoming more and more boring. The writers care way too much about political correctness and politics. This is in no way good when it's about giving a good plot and following the consistency of their lore created in DAO. DA:I was a good game but the story hardly punched me. Nothing horrific, nothing really bloody, there are hardly things who made me uurrr, that's disgusting or think, what a bastard, I want to kill him off. I just played dragon age origins recently and it's astonishing how the atmosphere of the game isn't the same at all. It's much more visceral in the first episode.

 

What we learn here is just another proof for me that DA is going to be less and less interesting if Boware keep following this weird road. ( still interesting enough but not special to me like it was before )

 

@ Johanna : It's just dumb to remove something good in the plot just because they fear some reactions. I'm not sure it has anything to do with women ruining the industry in the minds of people.

 

Anyway, that's why I often prefer the first seasons of a serie tv or first episodes of video games. When creators work on their thing, they don't have to think about fans and their reactions or critics, what they like and want or not. They just follow their ideas to the end and prey that people will be pleased. And if it is a success, that's pretty much because people loved what they have done with their work. 

[Ryzaki]

Honestly the only part of this quest I'd wanted is the think you win but you didn't.

 

Other than that I'd preferred Envy screw with our PC's past (something that might've been easier if the game was human only). And using that to screw with the PC by getting closer and closer to how he/she'd react.

[rigron]

No, other than I'd be reminding myself not to be a stereotypical horny male. And FYI I play only male Inquisitors so, either way. From what I read, whether you know it's a demon or not, you consent. How is that rape? Deception yes but not rape - there is a difference.

 

"I wanted to because I didn't know you weren't Lelianna."

is NOT the same as...

"I said no, foul demon, but you took me anyway."

 

In a lot of First World countries sleeping with another person thorught means of deception is considered a rape by the law. In my own country (Spain) it does.

 

I want to bang Leliana, but I normally get involved in what happens on the game so I would probably be affected by the reveal after learning that I had really sleep with that disgusting monster (assuming they kept the same design for the Envy demon). And that´s exactly what I look for when playing a videogame, watching a movie or reading a book: emotions, feeling something. And DA: Inquisition only has made me feel something 2 times: Mages side quest and Dorian´s personal quest with his father.

 

The worst thing that can happen with any game, movie or book is that you don´t give a **** about the main character, main villian or the world demise, and as far as Inquisition goes, if there would be an option to "ey Cory, how about me actually joining you and walking throught the Black City together to become gods? Because you know: I don´t care about this world, specially I don´t care about the Chantry ****, I don´t really care about myself for what´s worth and, let´s be honest, even with your blighted dragon/archedemon/whatever you are still a joke with a comical design and the charisma of a shoe" I would have taken it.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 Does this prove IT?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

In a lot of First World countries sleeping with another person thorught means of deception is considered a rape by the law. In my own country (Spain) it does.

Yep. America has it as a type of rape as well. 

 

http://en.wikipedia....pe_by_deception

[mrcrazyman]

Deception yes but not rape - there is a difference.

 

Rape by Deception is a crime in many places.

http://en.wikipedia....pe_by_deception

http://engagedschola...xt=fac_articles

 

David Gaider has an additional post in his blog regarding how this wasn't changed solely because of this scene. here http://dgaider.tumbl...pment-follow-up He also provided additional comments how accounting for all interpretations and the sheer amount of work to resolve this properly was not worth it for an optional decision in an optional quest.

 

When it comes his comments about various amounts of interpretations consider that a potential big issue is that it sounds like you as the player can be given a choice where you actually can be under the impression that you are raping someone. From the limited information in the writeup it sounds somewhat like the Solas dream in Haven since he describes it as real so much so that you don't know you are in your head. He says it's real enough that you think you are sleeping with the real Leliana. This is despite that you can pick up on the creepiness and weirdness of the situation and her conversation. The player base and their knowledge is varied but it's not out of the question for people to truly believe they are in the real world with a possessed Leliana offering her body to you without the real Leliana being able to do anything about it yet you still are granted the opportunity to act on it. The fact you get a "Surprise it's a dream with a demon!" doesn't make how a player could interpret the preceding decision better. Then there is all the mess of the followup with a demon reveal and an explanation to the real Leliana. This entire thing opens a huge can of worms.
 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

 Does this prove IT?

Depends. Would the Envy demon take the form of a young boy? 

[Adanu]

now, we just have a bunch of rando arseholes complaining about women ruuuuuuuuining the games industry.
 

I blame the feminist movement and it's lack of accountability in it's hypocrisy, not women.

[realguile]

Ugh.So damn dissapointed to read this.

 

This game is sooooooo tame/lame in certain respects and this just makes me face palm.

[Dermain]

It's explicitly mentioned that the change came in because it made women uncomfortable.

 

Do you actually know somebody who has PTSD? Because something like the proposed quest idea shouldn't be triggering anything. PTSD doesn't work like Hollywood is so fond of showing it, where someone comes home from a war, and goes on a killing spree after seeing fireworks go off on Independence Day because they go bang. People who suffer from mental illness are still people, you don't have to cater to their every whim.

 

Hey, at least you got something right...

 

I don't think anybody contested that triggers are real, or that rape survivors would have PTSD. That said, rape survivors, people with PTSD, and people who suffer 99% other kinds of mental illness (again), are still people. Unless they're somehow unaware that the game they are playing is a work of fiction, it shouldn't be triggering anything. 99.9999999999999% of real-life triggers don't occur from movies or games or songs or other consumer media. There's a reason why soldiers who contract PTSD from combat are recommended to play games like Call of Duty or Battlefield, because the fictional presentations allow the sufferer to cope with their trauma in a safe environment.

 

Yes, because that's how PTSD works. The person has to go "this is a work of fiction, I should be fine" and suddenly they're cured! People with PTSD tend to become highly phobic around things that may trigger a flashback. You are correct that therapists recommend flooding techniques (such as playing FPS shooters if they received it from a war setting), but  usually that is done in a controlled environment where the therapist is present in order to try to counter the triggers when the person fails.

 

Of course, we also have to remember that people are different (to a degree), and as such they handle PTSD's symptoms in different ways. For some patients flooding techniques are encouraged (just like with phobias), but with others you can't do that because they wouldn't be able to handle it. When you're treating mental illness you kind of have to cater to the person's every whim if you want to be extremely ethical about it. Unless you're treating schizophrenia (and to a lesser extent bipolar disorder), but then there's the debate on whether or not we're treating them effectively by doing that...

 

Of course, when it comes to a video game it's far safer to remove such content because a developer can be sued for not providing warnings about it. Sure, the lawsuit would be seen as "trivial" to the public, but that wouldn't stop it from being successful.

[KaiserShep]

 Does this prove IT?

Si, bas.

[Johanna]

I blame the feminist movement and it's lack of accountability in it's hypocrisy, not women.

Blaming everything you don't like on "the feminist movement", like it's some choking, nebulous miasma of taking-all-your-fun-away, is just lazy thinking.

[SirGladiator]

The idea that this storyline was cut because of some people's 'sensitivity' is absolute madness.  There is nothing wrong with this plotline whatsoever, it sounds pretty cool.  The demon is impersonating Leliana and trying to trick you, that's what they do, right?  Except not in this game, because this is just one more example of sacrificing fun and coolness to the extreme feminist demon.  Such a shame.    

[rigron]

Blaming everything you don't like on "the feminist movement", like it's some choking, nebulous miasma of taking-all-your-fun-away, is just lazy thinking.

 

Amongs other things yes, it is that.

 

The idea that this storyline was cut because of some people's 'sensitivity' is absolute madness.  There is nothing wrong with this plotline whatsoever, it sounds pretty cool.  The demon is impersonating Leliana and trying to trick you, that's what they do, right?  Except not in this game, because this is just one more example of sacrificing fun and coolness to the extreme feminist demon.  Such a shame.    

 

And they completely removed Desire Demons too. After reading Gaider´s stupid explanation for the removal of the original Champions of the Just quest I can´t imagine why...

[Johanna]

Amongs other things yes, it is that.

Then I'm delighted to be your fun-killing bogeywoman. Your tears give me life.

[Bigdoser]

Amongs other things yes, it is that.

 

 

And they completely removed Desire Demons too. After reading Gaider´s stupid explanation for the removal of the original Champions of the Just quest I can´t imagine why...

They would not do that right? I mean I thought desire demons were awesome since they remind me of devils from DnD trying to play on your desires to get you to bargain with them. 

 

Hell I did it in DAO that free skill point was nice.  

 

I hope we see them in DLC I hope.... 

[ashwind]

   

 

 

Why are people talking about "rape".... the whole thing is an illusion that takes place in the Inquisitor's head. I am sure most people fantasize about having sex with a zillion others.

 

Or do people feel that their Inquisitor was raped by Envy... because they were tricked by envy? If so, these must be the same people who got so drunk that they slept with someone they thought to be Brad Pitt but woke up to Homer Simpson who then cry foul because .... they were deceive by themselves. 

[Sylvianus]

Mhh, why are we blaming feminists over this ? It's Bioware's call.The feminists didn't force them to do anything. Bioware decided alone to remove this content, because they care about political correctness and politics, that's their first priority over creativity. The issue is there and the issue is global. There will be always some people somewhere in the world complaining about a content. Should I recall that someone created a topic on the DAII board, blaming Bioware for killing our parents in DAO and DAII, and requiring them to stop in the future games ? Because his real parents died when he was young ? Should Bioware listen to him and never do that again ? 

 

What about those people who blamed Bioware for implying the violent death of a child on the M3 board ? Which I found funny, because we can cut the throat of a child possessed by a demon ( connor ) in DAO, which was released iin 2009. I doubt that we could have another decision like that in any future game now with the new Bioware by the way. 

 

The issue is what they want to do with their creativity, and what they are willing to compromise for ridiculous reasons out of story. And that's a shame. 

[o Ventus]

So rape survivors should play the Brood mother bits in DA:O and Awakenings to help them heal? I don't know whether to laugh or cry, so I choose to laugh.

That isn't at all what I said, but congratulations on putting words in my mouth. Or on my screen, or whatever.

 

If you're going to try to debunk my point, you could at least try to make a somewhat close comparison. A soldier in real-life kills people in a war with guns. Thus, killing fake people with fake guns helps them cope, according to the theory. Real men and women who get raped are not typically force fed meat from other people of their own species, and tend not to be magically transformed into grotesque, multi-breasted monsters (or if they are, they might want to consider calling an exorcist, not a doctor).

[NRieh]

For crying out aloud, people..... TRY reading! 

 

Let me try it like this: 

 

The scene was not changed solely because the potential violation could be interpreted as problematic...

(...)

In this case, the writer felt the road to making the scene work was too far to travel for too little return. Creepy and intriguing in its potential outcomes, yes, but ultimately it distracted from what he was trying to do with the plot as a whole — and thus he scrapped it. (SOURCE, DG's tumblr, FULL comment on the matter) 

[o Ventus]

Yes, because that's how PTSD works. The person has to go "this is a work of fiction, I should be fine" and suddenly they're cured!

 

People sure do have a f**king issue with actually keeping to the topic and not completely falsifying the other side to make their point. I didn't say anything to even imply that, let alone say it explicitly.

 

People with PTSD tend to become highly phobic around things that may trigger a flashback.

 

Well, you're apt at stating the obvious. +10 points to Gryffindor.

 

 

Of course, when it comes to a video game it's far safer to remove such content because a developer can be sued for not providing warnings about it. Sure, the lawsuit would be seen as "trivial" to the public, but that wouldn't stop it from being successful.

 

When in the entire history of ever has this occurred? 

[Adanu]

Blaming everything you don't like on "the feminist movement", like it's some choking, nebulous miasma of taking-all-your-fun-away, is just lazy thinking.

 

Congratulations of putting words in my mouth, another thing feminists like to do as an 'argument'. I never blamed everything under the sun as feminists fault, I blamed this. Get it right.

[Nimlowyn]

For crying out aloud, people..... TRY reading! 
 
Let me try it like this: 
 
The scene was not changed solely because the potential violation could be interpreted as problematic...
(...)
In this case, the writer felt the road to making the scene work was too far to travel for too little return. Creepy and intriguing in its potential outcomes, yes, but ultimately it distracted from what he was trying to do with the plot as a whole — and thus he scrapped it. (SOURCE, DG's tumblr, FULL comment on the matter) 

Maker's breath, thank you.