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Should Dragon Age 4 Have Imports?


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#51
MaxQuartiroli

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If people hold onto the false illusion that the choices they made will make a big deal in the next game, they might play the old one more. People played DA2 multiple times to set up their Mage or Templar Hawkes. Yet this choice actually results in very little different in DA:I, with either the Mage/Templar conflict or with Hawke him/herself. One play through of DA:I should make that abundantly clear.

 

This is not a problem of the keep, but just of how they didn't make your choice to matter, and this happened both with the older system than with this one. What you did in DA:O had very little impact in DA:A. Same for DA:O -> DA2, therefore I suppose that players are aware of that and they are not going to buy them again with this so-called illusion. What you could get more with save import was just a larger amount of bugs! :)

 

I think that people who are discouraged/pissed of by how their choices did not mattered aren't going to play the games again no matter which save-import system they will provide. And I think it's even worse when in order to try a slight different setting you have also to bother to play again the older games


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#52
Fast Jimmy

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I'm fine with that the impact of my choices between games is small (sure it would be great if the game would diversify this much, but I'm being realistic about it and I rather have this than nothing at all).

This is the biggest mistake of all - you are seeing it as a zero sum item, where having the import is bringing a small value, but it's better than nothing. Because it arguably is much WORSE than nothing - the Save Import has a toll, narratively speaking as well as development cost.

The Urn of Sacred Ashes, a powerful artifact that could change the entire conversation in terms of the true divinity of Andraste, was a huge choice in DA:O. Returning to the Temple in DA:I, you'd think that choice and how it affected the world would come into play. But nope... the Ashes are gone, the impact swept under the rug.

The ability to kill an entire Circle of Mages, an option given in multiple DA games, most notably DA2's climax, should have greatly reduced/enhanced the Mages numbers, not to mention their ability to recruit based on sympathy. But nope... the story happens the same, which. Enters these past choices, making them "less" than they were presented.

I could talk about how Orzammar could be the most powerful army in Thedas with the anvil, how who the king/queen of Ferelden for a decade is should change a game where you spend half the game in that country, or the eye-rolling cop out that was The Dark Ritual... but I'll stop. There IS a narrative cost to the Imports. If the game set a canon that certain events occured and that was that, it would be understandable. But with the Import system, a reason is given to weaken these choices, to dismiss these events, to hide these narratives. Not to mention it seems to result in much more of a railroaded, "because thou must" type of story-telling. All because there's too many threads to follow, too many balls in the air, to allow any real choice. Future games will break under the strain of another game made like DA:O, so instead every side quest is linear and bland, while the main story still only has superficial choices that don't result in any net difference once the dust settles (survivors of Haven, anyone?).

What I would really like is that if I could experience a greater impact of my in game choices within that particular game itself.

And that's the rub - what you want is directly hurt by the Save Imports. Why? Because every resource spent on a divergent choice from a past game is less resources spent on choices in the current game. Is the benefit the Save Import brings, with its cameos and side conversations, worth more than a better current game experience? Because that is a very real concern. Either the game will need exponentially more resources each game to deal with the increased Imports, the import references themselves become less or even smaller, or the current game suffers. Those are the three options - is it worth it?

I really don't see it.
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#53
Fast Jimmy

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This is not a problem of the keep, but just of how they didn't make your choice to matter, and this happened both with the older system than with this one. What you did in DA:O had very little impact in DA:A. Same for DA:O -> DA2, therefore I suppose that players are aware of that and they are not going to buy them again with this so-called illusion. What you could get more with save import was just a larger amount of bugs! :)

I think that people who are discouraged/pissed of by how their choices did not mattered aren't going to play the games again no matter which save-import system they will provide. And I think it's even worse when in order to try a slight different setting you have also to bother to play again the older games


The title of this thread is "Should Dragon Age 4 Have Imports" and, while the Keep is a decent enough idea and may actually work well once all the links get worked out, it still doesn't resolve the underlying problem - DA needs to get rid of the Import system.

#54
Fast Jimmy

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You! I learned it from watching you!


Curse you, Sylvius. I just belly laughed at work and now everyone is staring.

#55
Fast Jimmy

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BW vomited all over Mages/Templars plotline no matter how you look at it (not just in term of between games impact).


Narrative/writing strain (and a possible drop in quality of the entire writing product) is a symptom of trying to balance all precious choices with current game needs and future game worries. I feel the amount of forced narrative events and lack of freedom can be directly traced back to the cumbersome Import system.

#56
Guest_Caladin_*

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No they shouldn't an BioWare needs to stop pretending your choices matter because they dont, maybe if they made your choices matter to just that game an canonized there own world state with no choices carrying over from previous titles to worry about, maybe then we might actually get choices that matter, but i doubt it an more than likely they will keep up the pretense of choice matters


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#57
MaxQuartiroli

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The title of this thread is "Should Dragon Age 4 Have Imports" and, while the Keep is a decent enough idea and may actually work well once all the links get worked out, it still doesn't resolve the underlying problem - DA needs to get rid of the Import system.

 

If the alternative is canon then I agree with you.

 

And I also agree when you say that import sometimes could be a restriction to writer's freedom, unless they won't canonize/retcon things and ******-off allmost every player. by doing that. On the other hand many players like to see that at least some small pieces of the world/story are shaped by the choices they made.. and it helps them to feel more connected to the whole story and feel like the world is their world, even if it's not true at all. Therefore in order to kill two birds with a stone they import your choices to throw you a bone, and then they make cameos/side quests of them in order to be free to write the story they want in any case.

 

As long as people's expectations aren't high and as long as they are able to see import for what it really is, (i.e. a small and fun addition to the game) I think it's fine therefore I'd like to see it also in future installations.



#58
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I had hopes for the keep now i have none, why? because there putting every little crappy little choice ever made into that thing and again giving the illusion things matter when they dont.

 

They should have used the keep to say "right guys these are the choices from previous games that will MATTER now choose", i was expecting to use the keep to make maybe 5 choices at most from previous games (excluding the pc choices of gender/race etc), but instead i login an its a damn useless narrative of nigh the full previous titles, my god what a waste of resources



#59
mLIQUID

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The only reason I agree is because to set the series apart it needs to remain story rich. Voice acted main character, pivotal cut-scenes and most importantly story arcs suited for play styles (good, evil, indifferent) or relative involvement. The trouble with imported world states is that it adds another lvl to that already exponential development. If everyone can start from 6 avenues that is hard enough to accomplish this feat, never mind accommodating 12 or 20 pre-existing states. I think if at all the imported states be kept very minimal. Light or dark, race, class... and in no way at the cost of the depth in story telling paths. I know from a marketing perspective it's a powerful thing to tie multiple games together, but from a players point of view I wouldn't  put in in place of any of the above mentioned.

 

In the end I know there's an entire branch of theoretical physics saying no matter what events take place the outcome will be the same, but from a fantasy immersion and replay perspective you would need options... and depth to support those options. Teetering on the edge of light and dark can be enough I suppose if the arcs are wide enough and give strength to distinct races and plights, but it's really going to need more than what was given in the current game.



#60
Merwanor

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Of course they should have imports. The Keep has finally fixed my biggest issue with these games, and that is the issues with importing saves. I had to turn to mods and a few tricks to get a correct import of my saves from DAO and Awakening into DA2. Dragon Age Keep is amazing as it gives me a complete overview of my timeline and how my story is. I at least love all the references to earlier games and the things my characters did. It just makes it all feel like a much bigger story.



#61
ThreeF

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I really don't see it.

 

I think that's the crux of it, we are seeing things differently. :P

 

From your example you seem to want a greater impact of the previous choices in the current game, I don't. I'm fine with it being cosmetic, I wouldn't mind if it was even more cosmetic. I do think that trying to implement more than something cosmetic can hurt the story (we are in agreement on this). But I'm fine to know that Alistair is king in my story, that Fenris is alive and well hunting mages, that Loghain is regarded as hero by some even if I killed him as a traitor in DAO it connects me better to the story. The poor plot structure of DAI is not caused by the superficial branching, imo, there are other factors that contribute to this in much greater extend.

 

It would be nice to explore the Urn of Andraste, but it is not needed, the game is capable of questioning the reality of religion and myth without it, more so because DAI more directly questions the elven side of things and implicate the human side on the way. I actually think that adding UoSA to the plot would be excessive. It might pop up in some of next installments, who knows? Or maybe it was destroyed to close a branch, which is also fine.

 

We don't know how many Circles there are, destroying two circles might not have that much of impact, especially if you consider that in previous games templars suffer great losses even if the Circles are destroyed. The importance really becomes miniscule.

 

We can not know if and how Orzammar would play out without any branching, you are projecting your wants and logical reasoning here, understandably we all do that. We don't even know what and if there is something in store for Orzammar, there might be.

 

 

 Is the benefit the Save Import brings, with its cameos and side conversations, worth more than a better current game experience?

 

Again, I don't think it's the branching that is hurting DAI, but customization and the ability to create your own story is one of the things that makes DA games unique and very appealing to me. Pre-made characters in a linear self-contained story? Dime in dozen (and many of those have terrible plot).


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#62
pdusen

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No they shouldn't an BioWare needs to stop pretending your choices matter because they dont, maybe if they made your choices matter to just that game an canonized there own world state with no choices carrying over from previous titles to worry about, maybe then we might actually get choices that matter, but i doubt it an more than likely they will keep up the pretense of choice matters

 

So... you want to get big, world-changing choices in each game and then have them be thrown out the window completely with the very next game.

 

You have an odd definition of "choices that matter".



#63
Auztin

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Umm...what?Is this really a question or suggestion?If they retconning everything what will make it any different than the numerous of pointless RPGs already out there.

#64
Guest_Caladin_*

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just because a game is set in the same world/country/universe as its predecessors doesn't mean all the choices you made in the previous titles has to matter outside there respective game, i love having choice/consequence matter pertaining to the relevant game, what i dont like is the illusion of that choice having any sort of consequence in future games, the only thing it does is give a headache to developers/writers not to mention the amount of forum posts of "you kidzing Biowarez" when it comes to the conclusion of said import an the consequence when portrait in-game.

 

Have choice/consequence pertain to the game, wipe it all clean when it comes to the next and have nothing but BioWares own canon govern the world, i want BioWare to dictate the future of the world not some crap save import or some dressed up html version of it



#65
Ferocious7

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I would love a Mass Effect styled continuation.   The Keep is an amazing idea whether they have importing or not.... it allows people to go back and customize their choices.   For example:   I had several DA:O playthroughs and my ideal universe was a mixture of some of the choices I had tried across different characters.   I got to make that so and then try out different world states in other playthroughs.  All in all, the whole Keep idea is straight up brilliant.



#66
thruaglassdarkly

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I have mixed feelings here.  One of the things I like about Bioware games is how each game in series bleeds into the next, even when the call-backs come in the form of references and bits of conversation.  It adds to my experience.  On the other hand, I think the feature works much better in Mass Effect, where the continuity of a single protagonist makes it easier export personal story choices from one game to the next.  

 

I reject the idea that the import system destroyed player choice and storytelling in DA:I, mostly because I found DA:I's story satisfying and felt that player choice had  (without getting to spoilery, the Haven events always make me cringe, and the implications for the Chantry, Wardens, and Orlies are vastly different in each of my playthroughs).  All that said, I do see this becoming a situation with diminishing returns.

 

So, I like the OPs idea of moving the story north and starting fresh, but I think it can still make with the Keep.  Make the decisions a cosmetic history for the south, with a few bits of fan-service conversation, and keep the south out of the main story (at least long enough to reset the deck). I'm ready to move on to new regions, and my Warden and Hawke could use some closure anyway.  I know not everyone would love this, but think its the best way to keep the system tenable moving forward. 



#67
KaiserShep

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As of now, I love the Keep and can't wait to see how this system is refined. Overall I'm pretty satisfied with how it's worked in Inquisition so far. The only thing I'd like to see is a better way to pick world states from a game menu.



#68
Precursor Meta

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I like the imports. I know its it doesn't change the game significantly, but I like the acknowledgment of our past choices, no matter how meager.

#69
Andreas Amell

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If Dragon Age 4 is set in a completely new region of Thedas then it should import from Dragon Keep. We've changed a significant part of the Thedas history, so let the imports matter.

 

 

If Bioware is interested in making smaller, isolated games that don't influence future sequels then imports should stop at Inquisition.



#70
Bullets McDeath

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One thing that has struck me about Inquisition (I'm about 25 hours in, just got done meeting up with a certain somebody in Crestwood) is how it throws you into a swamp of lore right from the get-go. I'd be curious to hear from someone for whom Inquisition was their first Dragon Age game and see if they had any idea what was going on, who was on whose side and why. Maybe I'm underestimating average intelligence here but I kind of feel like if I wasn't such a huge nerd for this series and hadn't spent so much time replaying Origins and Awakening and DA2, I'd be lost.

 

I feel like Inquisition pretty much assumes you're already familiar with Thedas and most of its tropes in a way that Origins and even DA2 did not.

 

I love that the series is finally starting to touch on some of the bigger mysteries of the setting (the Maker, what were the Old Gods really, the Black City, etc.) in depth but it reminds of me the dilemma that comic book series (or any long running serial media, really) often face which is straddling the line between pleasing your old fans and attracting new ones.

 

Which is another reason I'm of two minds when it comes to imports... that said, if the plan really is for there to be 5 main titles, and since ostensibly they're all going to take place within the same century (the titular Dragon Age) maybe they can keep it all together. Inquisition seems to be selling and doing well but I think next time it will be even harder to tie in the story and characters of the previous 3 games, in all their possible variations and iterations and still make it as accessible as possible to a first-time player.



#71
luism

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I don't care either way I highly doubt I'll be playing 4. Unless they go back to dark fantasy rpg. I liked inquisition but in reality the game isn't my style anymore.

#72
Quaddis

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The problem was that nor Bioware nor EA wanted to design any part of game that wouldn't be accessible to everyone, and Mass Effect 3 was pinnacle of that philosophy. 
Also, that resulted in minimum of restriction for writers, so NO, if we remove save importing, Biowares writers will not stumble onto some kind of epiphany and you will not receive your ultra super special turbo Bioware game.



#73
Bullets McDeath

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I don't remember asking for my ultra super special turbo Bioware game... odd.  :lol: 

 

Anyhow, angrily projecting your issues with EA and (I'm guessing) casualization onto this thread isn't going to get anybody very far. It's not relevant to the topic at hand. The overtures Bioware is making to the mainstream, in a general sense, are a separate issue from imports restricting storytelling.



#74
Quaddis

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I don't remember asking for my ultra super special turbo Bioware game... odd. Angrily projecting your issues with EA and (I'm guessing) casualization onto this thread isn't going to get anybody very far. It's not relevant to the topic at hand.

 

It was suggested by some people many times that save imports are restricting writers creativity and because of that we should have games 20-30 years after. I was just pointing out fact that save imports are not problem in that matter, if they have problem with it they just retcon it. 
I also, have no problem with EA, i gave them 60 EUR they gave me 110 hours of fun, not the best fun, but at that point in time, combined with my curiosity about new DA title, their offering was superior to anything offered by their competition.

 

I have no problem with casualisation, either, i prefer Battlefield to ARMA, and to be honest i preferred fast paced shooter ME2/3 was to ME1, but not the story.

 

Also, nothing angry here, not even passive aggressive, just stating what seemed to me to be obvious, but i guess some people just needed help to connect the dots, or view from different angle to arrive to a conclusion that fits best in their minds, or something like that.



#75
Bullets McDeath

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Guess I misread your tone, always a danger on the Wild Wild Web. I still thinking we're talking two intersecting but distinct problems with Dragon Age possibilities. I just wonder if DA is eventually going to collapse under the weight of all the potential world states it has to account for.

 

Since they tend to hew towards relative neutrality either way, in many instances effectively rendering certain choices moot as the same things happen afterwards regardless, it really highlights how much of our choice and player agency in these games is an illusion. So it's not really that different than having a set canon in the end, except you do have that extra bit of "emotional" investment based on having your choices "make a difference". Which is part of what I like and has kept me drawn into the series, so who knows what I'm complaining about :lol:

 

I wonder in general if there isn't a better way, though. It would very difficult to make an ongoing series where you could make huge sweeping changes to the world state that all future games would adhere to, not just from a technical standpoint but from the standpoint of attracting new players. At that point, it's sort of like the logic for smaller budgets on expansions; at best you're only going to sell exactly as many copies of it as whatever product it's an expansion for, and in reality far less, so... yeah. You'd almost have to factor in an ever shrinking base for a series like that, which no AAA title is going to survive with... hell, remember Xenosaga? So instead we get what we've got and, well... yeah, here we are.