145 réponses à ce sujet

[C0uncil0rTev0s]

 The funny thing is I haven't really explored the LI in this game too much, and that's best part.  Because of the way I've chosen to play roles its just not happening.   My first character totally played up the amnesiac role and had no idea of what she believed because she was a qunari rogue.  But was a totally go team, I love you all type but had no idea where she was coming from.  My second was an elven male total Dalish all the way mage who butted heads with Solas and Sera, and had a superiority complex.  And now I'm playing a Qunari 2 hander who is like, I'm totally taking advantage of this situation and making sure everyone knows I'm a baddass, I don't care what you think its my way or highway type. And I swear Cassandra wants me even though we don't agree on anything.  Nonetheless these characters make me feel like I'm playing them.  I haven't even gotten around to playing a Human Chantry supporting Templar Zealot yet.  

Qunari rogue? Well that should be something. Hmmm. Should I try it? I mean it's like 'PUFF' and the mountain dissapears just to get around...
Hmm. *diving youtube*

[Elsariel]

It's not impossible for someone to have been a BioWare fan since BG1 and think that DAI has good roleplaying.

In fact, I think that in several respects it has better roleplaying opportunities than the BG series. Baldur's Gate pins you down to a single origin story, no matter how poorly it works for your character. (Your elf is apparently the same age as Imoen, which makes no sense. Your druid has spent her entire life in Candlekeep.) In DAI you at least get a choice of five, counting Circle Mage Trevelyan as separate. The game also reacts more to your choice of background than either the Baldur's Gate series of DAO.

We also get a much better choice of love interests, which is one of my favourite ways to roleplay. Good luck playing a gay or lesbian PC in Baldur's Gate 2 and also getting laid without mods or the Enhanced Edition. (Or, for that matter, a dwarf. We may not have romanceable dwarves yet, but at least our dwarf PCs no longer have to be celibate.)

I was also impressed by how often DAI lets your character react emotionally to what's going on in the story - I think it does that better than any previous BioWare game, with the aid of the additions to the dialogue wheel.

But the, I prefer having a voiced protagonist in a game where everyone else is voiced, which apparently makes me some sort of heretic.

I'm a heretic with you. And I agree with everything you said. Well, most of it since I never really played BG. Which, I suppose, must really make me a heretic.

[C0uncil0rTev0s]

I'm a heretic with you. And I agree with everything you said. Well, most of it since I never really played BG. Which, I suppose, must really make me a heretic.

However DA:I protagonist doesn't really have any origin. I mean, that's a different Tarot card per class+race+gender and a very few unique dialogue options.

Since there's next to no backstory I can't call it 'origin'.

[Elsariel]

However DA:I protagonist doesn't really have any origin. I mean, that's a different Tarot card per class+race+gender and a very few unique dialogue options.
Since there's next to no backstory I can't call it 'origin'.

True. I would agree with you, there. I really would have liked to have them in DA:I. Missed opportunity.

[tmp7704]

tl;dr but I found the idea of BioWare as a company that "didn't try to 'catch up with mainstream audience' ever before" amusing, to say the least. It's as if they didn't make games using D&D/Forgotten Realms and Star Wars as selling points, and then didn't try to marry RPG with FPS, or with action combat... all long before DAI.

[C0uncil0rTev0s]

tl;dr but I found the idea of BioWare as a company that "didn't try to 'catch up with mainstream audience' ever before" amusing, to say the least. It's as if they didn't make games using D&D/Forgotten Realms and Star Wars as selling points, and then didn't try to marry RPG with FPS, or with action combat... all long before DAI.

You are missing my point a bit.

 

Before ME2/DA2 Bioware was teaching the audience, making it want each time something greater.

After ME2/DA2 Bioware stopped makeing the community better with their games, so that it's pure fanservice now (at its best).

[tmp7704]

You are missing my point a bit.
 
Before ME2/DA2 Bioware was teaching the audience, making it want each time something greater.
After ME2/DA2 Bioware stopped makeing the community better with their games, so that it's pure fanservice now (at its best).

It just feels to me you entire point is focused on ME series (and how in your eyes it went downhill overtime) and ignores they've been making games long before that. The problem is using a single point in time (the first Mass Effect) as some sort of 'what BioWare used to be like' when it's in no way such sort of universal quality indicator, but simply one of the games they've made. Ironically, in what I believe to be attempt to chase that 'mainstream audience' which at that point was more interested in games where they'd aim and shoot guns, than roll dice to see if they killed an orc.

[C0uncil0rTev0s]

It just feels to me you entire point is focused on ME series (and how in your eyes it went downhill overtime) and ignores they've been making games long before that. The problem is using a single point in time (the first Mass Effect) as some sort of 'what BioWare used to be like' when it's in no way such sort of universal quality indicator, but simply one of games they've made. Ironically, in what I believe to be attempt to chase that 'mainstream audience' which at this point was more interested in games where they'd aim and shoot guns, than roll dice to see if they killed an orc.

 

Sometimes I don't feel wrong about hitting people with retractable rubber batons. Specially lazy ones.

[tmp7704]

Sometimes I don't feel wrong about hitting people with retractable rubber batons. Specially lazy ones.

I'm sure it's somehow relevant but i'll leave the exercise of explaining exactly how to you. Because you know, lazy.

[Hiemoth]

You are missing my point a bit.

 

Before ME2/DA2 Bioware was teaching the audience, making it want each time something greater.

After ME2/DA2 Bioware stopped makeing the community better with their games, so that it's pure fanservice now (at its best).

 

Okay, this statement is just blatantly wrong. I know that there are a number of people who disliked DA2 and ME3, but both of them were massively ambitious from a narrative point of view, trying to tell a story and engage emotionally in a manner no Bioware game had tried to before them. And as a side point I am curious how Jade Empire is located in this grand view of things. And before someone starts claiming that DA2 and ME3 failed for them in being those, it doesn't matter, that's not my point. That is a discussion of execution, not of aspiration. Dragon Age 2 was a story of someone caught in the middle of a conflict vastly larger and more complicated than something solved by hitting things and tried to ask how one reacts and what one does in such a situation. Mass Effect 3 was a story about being the figure head in an unwinnable war, with each victory, no matter how small, requiring a sacrifice and asked the player how their character would react in that situation. Again, liked them or not, they were vastly different from previous BW games where the player characters were basically walking power fantasies. There is nothing inherently wrong with that, I've enjoyed most of those games, but to somehow claim that they taught new things and for the players to reach for greater things while DA2 and ME3 were some kinds fan service is just absurd and condescending on a level that I almost find insulting.

 

Actually, for me personally, the thing that disappointed me the most in DAI, which I by the way do thing is ultimately a good game, is that while I rationally understand their ambitions, or at least think I do, I felt in their main story and interactions they took a step back to what they were before DA2 and ME3 where they tried to do really new things with the story.

[AlanC9]

In fact, I think that in several respects it has better roleplaying opportunities than the BG series. Baldur's Gate pins you down to a single origin story, no matter how poorly it works for your character. (Your elf is apparently the same age as Imoen, which makes no sense. Your druid has spent her entire life in Candlekeep.)

 

I remember being told by a BG fan, in perfect seriousness, about how wonderful it was that BG didn't restrict your character's background as much as later Bio games have. He had this whole complicated backstory worked out about how his drow PC got to Candlekeep which was really inventive and well thought out. The only problem was that the games contradicted the story all over the place. Somehow he'd managed to not notice this.

[AlanC9]

 

Actually, for me personally, the thing that disappointed me the most in DAI, which I by the way do thing is ultimately a good game, is that while I rationally understand their ambitions, or at least think I do, I felt in their main story and interactions they took a step back to what they were before DA2 and ME3 where they tried to do really new things with the story.

 

I agree, but I can't really bring myself to blame them for going this route.

[C0uncil0rTev0s]

I agree, but I can't really bring myself to blame them for going this route.

Why? Bioware has willingly lost their leader position on the RPG market sue to some false marketing and you can't blame them for that?

Reason DA:I is a fail is deeper than just coding (which is awful). It's a management issue.

[Hiemoth]

I agree, but I can't really bring myself to blame them for going this route.

 

I wasn't blaming them for it, as I realized the way I phrased made it sound like that. First of all, it is their story to tell and this what they chose, it isn't a positive or a negative in that sense. Secondly, I freely admit that when their ambition is to try to tell a story of the zones and have that exploration as a driving force in the game mechanic and design, it makes sense to fall back to a more storyline instead of pushing the story itself in some new ways. When I say disappointment, I simply meant from the perspective of my own gaming experience, not because I felt Bioware had some responsibility to write a more ambitious story.

 

On a side note, dear Lord the number of typing errors in my posts.

[Rizilliant]

I have a couple problems with the OP.  First I will say, Once again very well written.

 

However, It falls flat for me.  For one it prefaces the argument by stating this is "for old bioware fans" and then falls to reference Baldur's Gate or NWN.  Secondly it comes off as a giant spermgasm for Mass Effect, a series that I never played except ME1.  My personal experience with that is it was extremely buggy / crash heavy and the story didn't intrigue me enough to keep trying to get my system to play it.  So I returned it.   Not only that my memory of ME1 coincides with the release of the also buggy NWN2 which was released by Obsidian.  

 

Now this is speculation. But... I always suspected Bioware dropped the ball because they were so concerned about the Mass Effect game, they didn't fight for the right to party with Wizards of the Coast to keep the DnD license.  DAO was released after 3 or 4 years of talking about this new amazing RPG they were developing.  ME2 was released at about the sametime as DAO.  

 

The Result..  DAO was a let down for many of us "ACTUAL" old bioware fans because it wasn't the Classic RPG we were expecting.  Luckily they did release a toolset, and that made the game a little better for some of us.  Many, many many of us and you can reference the old black and blue forum, felt that too many resources at BW were used for ME2 and thus the DAO was made with a basic MMO type cooldown mechanic that everyone else was using at the time.  No creativity or complexity in the game ruleset at all.  The only thing new it added was the ability to control AI, which a lot of people on this board are mistaking for tactical game play.  

 

It irks me when people say DAO is cRPG, when it was anything but.   AI control does not = tactical game play.  Its nice and was a big miss in DAI.  The thing is regardless of the weak ruleset DAO presented, they did present a new and interesting world with a great story line that keeps me coming back.  

 

The thing I like about DAI is that I can actually ROLE PLAY my character, I've played the game from 3 different personalities and the result is different war table missions, different attitudes from the world NPC's and especially companions. Compared to DAO, there were some nice character interaction but nothing on the level in DAI.  

 

To me it feels like a real living world that changes based on my personality.  My favorite was going thru the game as a complete *******.  To me that's the story of this game, the way the way world around you is formed and building this community.  

 

The biggest miss is changing the magic schools, wtf?  How do you change the magic schools?  

 

Lastly, I will agree with your point about the main antagonist, I was never concerned about him, nor was he concerned about me.  Until it was time to go kill the clown.  Major Plot Fail there.  My hope is that he was supposed to be integrated in the keep siege mechanic that was left out, and that will be the DLC that ties this thing together.  We'll see.

I cannot fathom someone claiming that Origins is in now way a tactical, or classical rpg, and yet Inquisition is done quite well? Without sounding like im attacking you personally, i dont think ive met anyone who would come to this conclusion.. I too am in my 30's, and was a long standing fan of Bioware, and their earliest work. Origins remains to this day, one of my all-time favorites. On the other hand, im struggling to finish a single play-through of Inquisition. 

 

How exactly is Origins not a tactical crpg again? You referenced the ability to control the party, but you neglected to mention setting behavior perimeters, taking a "tactical" approah in combat, as opposed to real-time action paced mechanics, the numerous outcomes your work, conversations, and even down to your skill/ability choices having a lasting impact on the overall story, and game play. You control the characters attributes, class, look, conversations, abilities, specializations, if/when you align yourself with certain factions, and many other aspects many consider to be the very core of a top notch rp experience.. 

 

Would you mind ellaborating, as opposed to "people mistakingly think controlling AI+tactical game play"?

 

Edit: as for the hope of Solo campaign DLC, i do believe Bioware stated a no comment as to if there would ever be any whatsoever, yet gladly spoke about continuing to roll out for multiplayer..

[Rizilliant]

Thanks for your kind response. However paragraphs weren't invented for nothing, and I'd be most happy you use those.

 

As you may have noticed I'm referring back to 2007 tops because those older titles that won't ring a bell to you (disclaimer). You see? There's no point in referring to KotOR or BG or NWN because there will be no experience from the forum readers. It'll be just like 'hay how this elderly whiner even types in letters with keyboard? Tevos must be around 60'.

 

So I've chosen to refer to the games that are yet popular among gamers and widely accessible.

 

But then I feel puzzled. If you claim to be REAL hardcore Bioware fan, how could you count DA:I for roleplaying?.. I mean, for realsies?

You've seen KotOR and BG, and you think THIS IS ROLEPLAYING?..  *distrustful glance*

These statements i do not understand.. A very large portion of people who continue to purchase Bioware games, are a direct result of loving those earliest editions of their work.. Not even just Bioware titles, but many games today emulate these works. Anytime i visit a forum related to an rpg game, or a youtube video, etc. these games are mentioned as the yard stick by which the newer releases are measured/compared.. 

 

To presume anyone reading is a youngin, or whatever your intention, is just plain ignorant! Hell, even some of those younger generations have gone back to purchase Baldurs Gate, Knights of the Old Rebublic, Neverwinter Knights, etc. as many of todays games are made in hopes to duplicate what was so great about those titles we now consider to be benchmarks of the genre!

 

Edit: Didnt intend for this to come off as a personal attack. But yours certainly read as if it were..

[Rizilliant]

tl;dr but I found the idea of BioWare as a company that "didn't try to 'catch up with mainstream audience' ever before" amusing, to say the least. It's as if they didn't make games using D&D/Forgotten Realms and Star Wars as selling points, and then didn't try to marry RPG with FPS, or with action combat... all long before DAI.

I dont recall a Bioware first person shooter.. Though they did change Mass Effect into a 3rd person shooter.. Even though they used the Star Wars liscense, they did so in a very original, inventive way, with NOTHING short of pure Bioware swagger!  

 

And to say the D&D usage was just to capture "main stream" attention, id have to laugh. Where has Dungeons and Dragons ever been "main Stream"? Those who played back in the day, were a very small portion of people. Then referred too as the "nerds" or "geeks" of their generation.. The rule set for many games were founded on the principles of the dice roll, which d&d did perfectly! The fantasy written is been largely accepted as the standard, in todays most popular fantasy titles.. WoW being one of the biggest. Even when not taking the fantasy setting, the mechanics are usually (or used too be) the backbone of the combat system, or even dialog.

 

I myself never played, but the video game iterations of, have been quite amazing! Its unfortunate that todays youth dont seem to enjoy emersing themselves fully in a well written Rp experience.. It just takes too much time, i guess.. I guess its not as adrenaline pumping as mash, mash, mash, dodge, dodge, dodge... Why put thought, time, effort, and emotion into something that can span weeks, or months, when you can jet-pack, lazer, and esplosion your way straight to the completion achievement in 4 hours.

[katokires]

It's not impossible for someone to have been a BioWare fan since BG1 and think that DAI has good roleplaying.

 

In fact, I think that in several respects it has better roleplaying opportunities than the BG series. Baldur's Gate pins you down to a single origin story, no matter how poorly it works for your character. (Your elf is apparently the same age as Imoen, which makes no sense. Your druid has spent her entire life in Candlekeep.) In DAI you at least get a choice of five, counting Circle Mage Trevelyan as separate. The game also reacts more to your choice of background than either the Baldur's Gate series of DAO.

 

We also get a much better choice of love interests, which is one of my favourite ways to roleplay. Good luck playing a gay or lesbian PC in Baldur's Gate 2 and also getting laid without mods or the Enhanced Edition. (Or, for that matter, a dwarf. We may not have romanceable dwarves yet, but at least our dwarf PCs no longer have to be celibate.)

 

I was also impressed by how often DAI lets your character react emotionally to what's going on in the story - I think it does that better than any previous BioWare game, with the aid of the additions to the dialogue wheel.

 

But the, I prefer having a voiced protagonist in a game where everyone else is voiced, which apparently makes me some sort of heretic.

Totally agree, that is why I hate Inquisition. I hate roleplaying. I like stats, skills and feats. And boring combat. Bring they back to me. I don't even bother with Thedas anymore, it doesn't matter.
They should specify a genre CBCS RPG, which stands for character builder and combat simulator RPG. Then I would never play other kind of RPG again, because I love CBCS RPG, that is what BG1/2, NWN1/2, KOTOR1/2 and DAO/2 were for me (among other titles). If I liked roleplaying I would be an actress, if I liked stories I would read a book or watch a movie. If I play a game I want mechanics to represent myself in, with stats and boring combat. If I wanted action I would play an action game.

But that's it, goodByeoware o/

[Elsariel]

Totally agree, that is why I hate Inquisition. I hate roleplaying. I like stats, skills and feats. And boring combat. Bring they back to me. I don't even bother with Thedas anymore, it doesn't matter.
They should specify a genre CBCS RPG, which stands for character builder and combat simulator RPG. Then I would never play other kind of RPG again, because I love CBCS RPG, that is what BG1/2, NWN1/2, KOTOR1/2 and DAO/2 were for me (among other titles). If I liked roleplaying I would be an actress, if I liked stories I would read a book or watch a movie. If I play a game I want mechanics to represent myself in, with stats and boring combat. If I wanted action I would play an action game.
But that's it, goodByeoware o/

LOL. I think you need to re-read her post. I don't think you two agree at all .

[tmp7704]

I dont recall a Bioware first person shooter.. Though they did change Mass Effect into a 3rd person shooter..

I was referring to ME there, and it was a bit of a shortcut -- "introducing shooter mechanics into RPG due to popularity of FPS/TPS at the time" would've been too much of a mouthful.
 

Even though they used the Star Wars liscense, they did so in a very original, inventive way, with NOTHING short of pure Bioware swagger!

Putting a spin on Star Wars is still selling Star Wars. Especially when the very original, inventive way keeps all the basics from the regular Star Wars universe.
 

And to say the D&D usage was just to capture "main stream" attention, id have to laugh. Where has Dungeons and Dragons ever been "main Stream"?

It's been mainstream in the target audience, that is, the part of the population interested in playing cRPGs. Would you really question the idea that when making a game for certain group of people, using the setting that's most popular with that group, is playing it safe and aiming to maximize your sales, compared to alternative of trying to come up with something new and different?

[AlanC9]

You are missing my point a bit.
 
Before ME2/DA2 Bioware was teaching the audience, making it want each time something greater.
After ME2/DA2 Bioware stopped makeing the community better with their games, so that it's pure fanservice now (at its best).

This would be a lot more convincing if you hadn't just said that Bio should have stuck with their standard plot.

[AlanC9]

Why? Bioware has willingly lost their leader position on the RPG market sue to some false marketing and you can't blame them for that?
Reason DA:I is a fail is deeper than just coding (which is awful). It's a management issue.

You didn't follow what Hiemoth was saying at all, did you? I was agreeing with the proposition that Bio had retreated from the experiments with RPG narrative that we saw in ME3 and DA2. I found this regrettable, but nevertheless understandable. You didn't like thise experiments in the first place, of course.

[C0uncil0rTev0s]

You didn't follow what Hiemoth was saying at all, did you? I was agreeing with the proposition that Bio had retreated from the experiments with RPG narrative that we saw in ME3 and DA2. I found this regrettable, but nevertheless understandable. You didn't like thise experiments in the first place, of course.

So decisive. Trying to impress someone?

[wicked cool]

I believe dlc will decide the fate of dai and i would like to present dragon age 1 & 2 to refute partof your argument

Dao dlc-stone prisoner is dlc mostly for a tank conpanion. Return to ostagar is dlc just upgrade equipment early

Da2-legacy adds so much to game and without it wouldnt have played game as much as i did

I would argue that dai lacks direction. Its like a very good detective novel however there is no agatha christie to sprinkle in clues and skyrim did a better job in telling you if interested what to do to beat the bad guy. It gets worse after skyhold. Would have loved one of the advisors to act as a navigator "you really should check out crestwood before you tackle the hissing wastes

[C0uncil0rTev0s]

I believe dlc will decide the fate of dai and i would like to present dragon age 1 & 2 to refute partof your argument

Dao dlc-stone prisoner is dlc mostly for a tank conpanion. Return to ostagar is dlc just upgrade equipment early

Da2-legacy adds so much to game and without it wouldnt have played game as much as i did

I would argue that dai lacks direction. Its like a very good detective novel however there is no agatha christie to sprinkle in clues and skyrim did a better job in telling you if interested what to do to beat the bad guy. It gets worse after skyhold. Would have loved one of the advisors to act as a navigator "you really should check out crestwood before you tackle the hissing wastes

 

Or maybe a messenger with a letter 'Please, take a right turn in one hundred meters to get a treasure'. That's I call decent humour