145 réponses à ce sujet

[mutantspicy]

I cannot fathom someone claiming that Origins is in now way a tactical, or classical rpg, and yet Inquisition is done quite well? Without sounding like im attacking you personally, i dont think ive met anyone who would come to this conclusion.. I too am in my 30's, and was a long standing fan of Bioware, and their earliest work. Origins remains to this day, one of my all-time favorites. On the other hand, im struggling to finish a single play-through of Inquisition. 

 

How exactly is Origins not a tactical crpg again? You referenced the ability to control the party, but you neglected to mention setting behavior perimeters, taking a "tactical" approah in combat, as opposed to real-time action paced mechanics, the numerous outcomes your work, conversations, and even down to your skill/ability choices having a lasting impact on the overall story, and game play. You control the characters attributes, class, look, conversations, abilities, specializations, if/when you align yourself with certain factions, and many other aspects many consider to be the very core of a top notch rp experience.. 

 

Would you mind ellaborating, as opposed to "people mistakingly think controlling AI+tactical game play"?

 

Edit: as for the hope of Solo campaign DLC, i do believe Bioware stated a no comment as to if there would ever be any whatsoever, yet gladly spoke about continuing to roll out for multiplayer..

No worries I'm not one of those sensitive guys... 

 

But let me clarify.  I'm not saying that DAI is a better cRPG than DAO.  I'm saying its a better game.  And I would agree that DAO has more cRPG elements to it than DAI.  To say otherwise, would just be nonsense.  

 

However, I am saying that DAO wasn't a very good cRPG.  It was a great game, with a great story.  But in terms of Classic Role Playing game play and strategy it missed the mark.  IMO.  I'm glad you mentioned character attributes, because to me that was the big indicator that the rule set just another me too RPG.   It was all so very basic and uninspired and fundamentally flawed for cRPG gameplay. To me it was better suited to MMO and aRPG game play.  Strength is for fighters only.  Dex is for Rogue attack, but suddenly strength means nothing, for example.  Stupid, if you are playing cRPG, but perfect for hack n slash aRPG games.  Yet DAO played like a cRPG in terms of combat mechanics.  Slow paced.  It didn't add up.  This leads to power building, you didn't really have to think about your character builds like you did in the old days.  Every class only needed to focus on 1 or 2 attributes and maybe con for surviveability.  In a cRPG every attribute should impact every class the same way.  Strength is Strength for everyone, Dex is for dodging and range targeting. Auto targeting rendered the latter obsolete.

 

In a cRPG you should have to make choices and sacrifices on how you build a fighter or a rogue if you wanted to play certain way. Don't get me started on being a multiclass character, which wasn't there either.  Maybe your a low armor, but quick swashbuckling type who relies on dodge as opposed to full plate for instance. So you sacrifice Str (damage) for Dex (dodging). Maybe you want to be a mage with fighting skills (Arcane Warrior) sacrifice Magic for Str.  You have none of this in any of the Dragon Age games.  Because it was simply, str for fighters, dex for rogues, magic for mages.  No hard decisions there.

 

Then talking about tactics, yeah it was mostly about AI control not actual game tactics.  Yes it had a tactics view, which couldn't cue commands any different than DAI does by the way.   And if you played a mage you had access to your entire spell book at all times, and the spells reset themselves with cooldowns.  Just like every MMO and aRPG was doing at the time.  As opposed to using actual tactics and having to prepare for a battle. By going around getting clues to your enemies weaknesses and then planning and preparing your spell book and components ahead of time.

 

This left me with DAO; was a game with a personality conflict, am I a cRPG or am I an aRPG.  And the result was it did neither well. 

 

In DAI they chose a firm direction, aRPG.  And I believe it makes sense with their rule set.  However, I would have been just as happy if they chose to go cRPG route, but they would have had to change their attribute system to make it more complicated and difficult to build a character.  And should also allow multiclassing.  If they went this way, they would have to get a way from the whole every class only needs to worry about two attributes thing.  And it can't all be about damage and surviveability.  

 

Now we don't have to agree.  I just hope my position makes a little more sense to you now.

[TheOgre]

No worries I'm not one of those sensitive guys... 

 

But let me clarify.  I'm not saying that DAI is a better cRPG than DAO.  I'm saying its a better game.  And I would agree that DAO has more cRPG elements to it than DAI.  To say otherwise, would just be nonsense.  

 

However, I am saying that DAO wasn't a very good cRPG.  It was a great game, with a great story.  But in terms of Classic Role Playing game play and strategy it missed the mark.  IMO.  I'm glad you mentioned character attributes, because to me that was the big indicator that the rule set just another me too RPG.   It was all so very basic and uninspired and fundamentally flawed for cRPG gameplay. To me it was better suited to MMO and aRPG game play.  Strength is for fighters only.  Dex is for Rogue attack, but suddenly strength means nothing, for example.  Stupid, if you are playing cRPG, but perfect for hack n slash aRPG games.  Yet DAO played like a cRPG in terms of combat mechanics.  Slow paced.  It didn't add up.  This leads to power building, you didn't really have to think about your character builds like you did in the old days.  Every class only needed to focus on 1 or 2 attributes and maybe con for surviveability.  In a cRPG every attribute should impact every class the same way.  Strength is Strength for everyone, Dex is for dodging and range targeting. Auto targeting rendered the latter obsolete.

 

In a cRPG you should have to make choices and sacrifices on how you build a fighter or a rogue if you wanted to play certain way. Don't get me started on being a multiclass character, which wasn't there either.  Maybe your a low armor, but quick swashbuckling type who relies on dodge as opposed to full plate for instance. So you sacrifice Str (damage) for Dex (dodging). Maybe you want to be a mage with fighting skills (Arcane Warrior) sacrifice Magic for Str.  You have none of this in any of the Dragon Age games.  Because it was simply, str for fighters, dex for rogues, magic for mages.  No hard decisions there.

 

Then talking about tactics, yeah it was mostly about AI control not actual game tactics.  Yes it had a tactics view, which couldn't cue commands any different than DAI does by the way.   And if you played a mage you had access to your entire spell book at all times, and the spells reset themselves with cooldowns.  Just like every MMO and aRPG was doing at the time.  As opposed to using actual tactics and having to prepare for a battle. By going around getting clues to your enemies weaknesses and then planning and preparing your spell book and components ahead of time.

 

This left me with DAO; was a game with a personality conflict, am I a cRPG or am I an aRPG.  And the result was it did neither well. 

 

In DAI they chose a firm direction, aRPG.  And I believe it makes sense with their rule set.  However, I would have been just as happy if they chose to go cRPG route, but they would have had to change their attribute system to make it more complicated and difficult to build a character.  And should also allow multiclassing.  If they went this way, they would have to get a way from the whole every class only needs to worry about two attributes thing.  And it can't all be about damage and surviveability.  

 

Now we don't have to agree.  I just hope my position makes a little more sense to you now.

 

I don't agree with most of what you said. But that's okay, we don't have to agree as you said, it's just our opinions.

[tmp7704]

I'm glad you mentioned character attributes, because to me that was the big indicator that the rule set just another me too RPG.   It was all so very basic and uninspired and fundamentally flawed for cRPG gameplay. To me it was better suited to MMO and aRPG game play.  Strength is for fighters only.  Dex is for Rogue attack, but suddenly strength means nothing, for example.  Stupid, if you are playing cRPG, but perfect for hack n slash aRPG games.  Yet DAO played like a cRPG in terms of combat mechanics.  Slow paced.  It didn't add up.

Err, strength did provide benefits for rogues in DAO. While it's possible to replace that with your cunning stat for the damage bonus calculations if you took certain talent, that was an option, and even if you did take it strength was a pre-requisite for equipping armour and carried some secondary performance bonuses.

Perhaps you're confusing it with how the stat system was 'streamlined' in DA2?

[C0uncil0rTev0s]

Err, strength did provide benefits for rogues in DAO. While it's possible to replace that with your cunning stat for the damage bonus calculations if you took certain talent, that was an option, and even if you did take it strength was a pre-requisite for equipping armour and carried some secondary performance bonuses.

Perhaps you're confusing it with how the stat system was 'streamlined' in DA2?

IIRC strenght provided melee attack bonus (percentage of hits connecting to target) for rogues. And it was very essential as armour had strength prerequisites.

So melee rogue had to balance between agility, cunning and strength.

 

And it was awesome.

[DragonAddict]

If DA:I had the following:

 

 

- you can interact with items in the game, instead of nothing

- you can go swimming and diving and searching instead of dying

- campsite

- chest

- talk to party characters whenever you wish

- gifts and romance

- not a hack and slash game

- skills trees, inventory and items are not dumbed down

- optimized for the PC like they had claimed

- perhaps buy land anywhere in the game, build a place to live in, romance character moves in, decorate inside and outside total customized

- watch a sunset and sunrise

- different weather patterns, snowing, raining, windy, cloudy, etc. sky is real time

- proper import savegame with the choices you made

 

 

This would of gone a long way to make DA:I a really great game.

 

 

I played DA:I through once and I'm done with it.....I feel like, was this a Dragon Age game?!

[C0uncil0rTev0s]

If DA:I had the following:

 

 

- you can interact with items in the game, instead of nothing

- you can go swimming and diving and searching instead of dying

- campsite

- chest

- talk to party characters whenever you wish

- gifts and romance

- not a hack and slash game

- skills trees, inventory and items are not dumbed down

- optimized for the PC like they had claimed

- perhaps buy land anywhere in the game, build a place to live in, romance character moves in, decorate inside and outside total customized

- watch a sunset and sunrise

- different weather patterns, snowing, raining, windy, cloudy, etc. sky is real time

- proper import savegame with the choices you made

 

 

This would of gone a long way to make DA:I a really great game.

 

 

I played DA:I through once and I'm done with it.....I feel like, was this a Dragon Age game?!

It wasn't. Free hugs?

[DragonAddict]

I know.....<sigh>.

 

I guess I have to be a kid with a PS4 that's never played the Dragon Age games before......weeeeee.

[C0uncil0rTev0s]

I know.....<sigh>.

 

I guess I have to be a kid with a PS4 that's never played the Dragon Age games before......weeeeee.

We all have to be that in EA/Bioware eyes I think.

You are not?

 

Well, it's your problem in their books.

[TheOgre]

Any chance they might fix tactical AI or zoom distance on tactical camera with this 'upcoming patch'?

[C0uncil0rTev0s]

Any chance they might fix tactical AI or zoom distance on tactical camera with this 'upcoming patch'?

Well there's always a chance. But I think we need to cry about it louder.
Afterall they got it to DAII... In the end.

[evgenija28]

I agree with what I've read so far, I haven't finished the game so I've stopped where I could see it got spoiler-ish. But very well written.

 

If DA:I had the following:

 

 

- you can interact with items in the game, instead of nothing

- you can go swimming and diving and searching instead of dying

- campsite

- chest

- talk to party characters whenever you wish

- gifts and romance

- not a hack and slash game

- skills trees, inventory and items are not dumbed down

- optimized for the PC like they had claimed

- perhaps buy land anywhere in the game, build a place to live in, romance character moves in, decorate inside and outside total customized

- watch a sunset and sunrise

- different weather patterns, snowing, raining, windy, cloudy, etc. sky is real time

- proper import savegame with the choices you made

 

 

This would of gone a long way to make DA:I a really great game.

 

 

I played DA:I through once and I'm done with it.....I feel like, was this a Dragon Age game?!

 

As far as the weather goes, I think it was cut out (not done) due to the prev-gen consoles. Even now the game barely works on prev-gen for some, I can't imagine if they added more what would happen. Oh, right. They would have to move on to the next gen. Another pleasing the audience moment from Bioware.

 

Another thing I agree completely one. Am I the only one that hates The Keep? It is nothing like I expected it to be. Don't get me wrong, I didn't like the idea to begin with but when everyone started talking about it and how it is better than having corrupted save files, I was like well okay, it's not such a bad thing, I can live with it. But it is so, as kids would say, lame. 

 

Swimming and not dying is probably the worst obstacle the gaming industry encountered. 

[C0uncil0rTev0s]

I agree with what I've read so far, I haven't finished the game so I've stopped where I could see it got spoiler-ish. But very well written.

 

 

As far as the weather goes, I think it was cut out (not done) due to the prev-gen consoles. Even now the game barely works on prev-gen for some, I can't imagine if they added more what would happen. Oh, right. They would have to move on to the next gen. Another pleasing the audience moment from Bioware.

 

Another thing I agree completely one. Am I the only one that hates The Keep? It is nothing like I expected it to be. Don't get me wrong, I didn't like the idea to begin with but when everyone started talking about it and how it is better than having corrupted save files, I was like well okay, it's not such a bad thing, I can live with it. But it is so, as kids would say, lame. 

 

Swimming and not dying is probably the worst obstacle the gaming industry encountered. 

Even inability to swim deep rivers and such can be designed fine. Remember the very first Risen?

[b10d1v]

The game feels like the harshly cut down remnants of what was a vastly more ambitious project.

The scope should have probably have been narrower from the start (perhaps fewer areas, stuck to their guns on race choice).

Ah well.

 

Your intuition is dead on.  Most people focus on frostbite, but it was a stable platform for battlefield.  Not that the frostbite development system does not come with a distinct learning curve disadvantage that planning seemed to miss.  The real problemattic issues are in the RPG modules and their interface to frostbite -in many cases behavior models were not ready so default used frostbite's commando model -good reason not to walk like a lady!  In appropriate for an RPG where body language is important.

[b10d1v]

I agree with what I've read so far, I haven't finished the game so I've stopped where I could see it got spoiler-ish. But very well written.

 

 

As far as the weather goes, I think it was cut out (not done) due to the prev-gen consoles. Even now the game barely works on prev-gen for some, I can't imagine if they added more what would happen. Oh, right. They would have to move on to the next gen. Another pleasing the audience moment from Bioware.

 

Another thing I agree completely one. Am I the only one that hates The Keep? It is nothing like I expected it to be. Don't get me wrong, I didn't like the idea to begin with but when everyone started talking about it and how it is better than having corrupted save files, I was like well okay, it's not such a bad thing, I can live with it. But it is so, as kids would say, lame. 

 

Swimming and not dying is probably the worst obstacle the gaming industry encountered. 

Probably have a good point.  Detailed weather mods can use a lot of resources as shown in skyrim- Bioware approached driving rain, but dialed it back likely because it was causing too many lagg issues.

[evgenija28]

Probably have a good point.  Detailed weather mods can use a lot of resources as shown in skyrim- Bioware approached driving rain, but dialed it back likely because it was causing too many lagg issues.

 

I may be imagining things but wasn't there a demo or an alpha preview, call it what you will, where there was a sand storm? Is that in the final product? I didn't get to any sandy parts. It's just a pretty game visually, but nothing is feels *alive* and *interactive*. It's like it is there, yes, but you know, you can wave to it ~~~~~~

No weather effects is really a bad decision. Night and day included. Even Kirkwall had night/day button!!! 

[C0uncil0rTev0s]

I may be imagining things but wasn't there a demo or an alpha preview, call it what you will, where there was a sand storm? Is that in the final product? I didn't get to any sandy parts. It's just a pretty game visually, but nothing is feels *alive* and *interactive*. It's like it is there, yes, but you know, you can wave to it ~~~~~~

No weather effects is really a bad decision. Night and day included. Even Kirkwall had night/day button!!! 

Oh please don't start discussing what was cut from the game... It pains to think of what we could get and what we got...

[evgenija28]

Oh please don't start discussing what was cut from the game... It pains to think of what we could get and what we got...

 

haha I'm sorry, I won't go there 

[tmp7704]

I may be imagining things but wasn't there a demo or an alpha preview, call it what you will, where there was a sand storm? Is that in the final product?

It's used in some desert areas to justify why you can't leave the map boundaries, when there's no mountains and such to prevent you from doing so.

[C0uncil0rTev0s]

It's used in some desert areas to justify why you can't leave the map boundaries, when there's no mountains and such to prevent you from doing so.

Yeah, wind blowing in your face in any direction you move. Perfect use of environmental hazard 10/10 such immersive very wow

[In Exile]

Yeah, wind blowing in your face in any direction you move. Perfect use of environmental hazard 10/10 such immersive very wow

It's as clever as invisible walls are going to get. 

[C0uncil0rTev0s]

It's as clever as invisible walls are going to get. 

Well why stick to the invisible walls concept then?

[TheOgre]

Sandy storms that barely slow down my character would have been a refresher for all the hours I wasted in the hissing wastes collecting shards.. But, don't hurt me for suggesting that!

[Elsariel]

Yeah, wind blowing in your face in any direction you move. Perfect use of environmental hazard 10/10 such immersive very wow

I thought Oblivion and Skyrim did something similar if you tried to go beyond map boundaries? Not dust in the face or anything but there is something that prevents you from going too far...

[C0uncil0rTev0s]

I thought Oblivion and Skyrim did something similar if you tried to go beyond map boundaries? Not dust in the face or anything but there is something that prevents you from going too far...

As far as i remember Skyrim borders are 3/4 (all but North) Mountains. And it is fine since it was stated before that Skyrim is a remote and Highland country.

North part is sea, in which you die eventually from freezing so it's pretty logical and not that restrictive.

[Rizilliant]

No worries I'm not one of those sensitive guys... 

 

But let me clarify.  I'm not saying that DAI is a better cRPG than DAO.  I'm saying its a better game.  And I would agree that DAO has more cRPG elements to it than DAI.  To say otherwise, would just be nonsense.  

 

However, I am saying that DAO wasn't a very good cRPG.  It was a great game, with a great story.  But in terms of Classic Role Playing game play and strategy it missed the mark.  IMO.  I'm glad you mentioned character attributes, because to me that was the big indicator that the rule set just another me too RPG.   It was all so very basic and uninspired and fundamentally flawed for cRPG gameplay. To me it was better suited to MMO and aRPG game play.  Strength is for fighters only.  Dex is for Rogue attack, but suddenly strength means nothing, for example.  Stupid, if you are playing cRPG, but perfect for hack n slash aRPG games.  Yet DAO played like a cRPG in terms of combat mechanics.  Slow paced.  It didn't add up.  This leads to power building, you didn't really have to think about your character builds like you did in the old days.  Every class only needed to focus on 1 or 2 attributes and maybe con for surviveability.  In a cRPG every attribute should impact every class the same way.  Strength is Strength for everyone, Dex is for dodging and range targeting. Auto targeting rendered the latter obsolete.

 

In a cRPG you should have to make choices and sacrifices on how you build a fighter or a rogue if you wanted to play certain way. Don't get me started on being a multiclass character, which wasn't there either.  Maybe your a low armor, but quick swashbuckling type who relies on dodge as opposed to full plate for instance. So you sacrifice Str (damage) for Dex (dodging). Maybe you want to be a mage with fighting skills (Arcane Warrior) sacrifice Magic for Str.  You have none of this in any of the Dragon Age games.  Because it was simply, str for fighters, dex for rogues, magic for mages.  No hard decisions there.

 

Then talking about tactics, yeah it was mostly about AI control not actual game tactics.  Yes it had a tactics view, which couldn't cue commands any different than DAI does by the way.   And if you played a mage you had access to your entire spell book at all times, and the spells reset themselves with cooldowns.  Just like every MMO and aRPG was doing at the time.  As opposed to using actual tactics and having to prepare for a battle. By going around getting clues to your enemies weaknesses and then planning and preparing your spell book and components ahead of time.

 

This left me with DAO; was a game with a personality conflict, am I a cRPG or am I an aRPG.  And the result was it did neither well. 

 

In DAI they chose a firm direction, aRPG.  And I believe it makes sense with their rule set.  However, I would have been just as happy if they chose to go cRPG route, but they would have had to change their attribute system to make it more complicated and difficult to build a character.  And should also allow multiclassing.  If they went this way, they would have to get a way from the whole every class only needs to worry about two attributes thing.  And it can't all be about damage and surviveability.  

 

Now we don't have to agree.  I just hope my position makes a little more sense to you now.

I understand your view, though am still gonna have to respectfully disagree.. Rogue is a well example of stat allocation decisions that were gain/loss scenarios.. Dex/cunnin if you wanted high crit, mroe so for archer types, all awehile still having to occassionally takes const, as you mentioned, but willpower was not exactly a no go..  Likewise if you were a dual wield warrior.. Ibvously some classes had more choices than a plain tank warr, or healing mage.. But others offered much in terms of decision, and different ways to play each class..

 

The tactics were far from just tact mode during combat.. You behavior parameters are setup for specific scenarios, and i changed mine quite often (i played strictly nightmare).. I am also a person who likes to utilize ALL party membera, nd not just the most effective, and stick with it for the entirety of the game..I also like to change my armors and weapons depending on which kind of enemy im fighting.. I setup everything prior to battle. I will agree, that there wasnt much in the way of learning, or studying prior to certain things, as morrowind was pretty good at, or BG.. But i still hold Origins as a top spot for the genre,and i dont see that changing..

 

As you saiid, we will have to agree to disagree. It was nice to do so, in a civilized manner btw.. thank you for that