I see a ton of builds for Assassin and not doubting that they are very powerful but why no Dual-Wield Tempests?
Seems to be Thousand Cuts is much more of a DW still than a bow skill.
Is there something about it that makes it suck?
I am planning my third rogue to see if I can hit the numbers that people report, I made some mistakes with my first DW and Archer.
I planned to do a DW Tempest and it sounds like it should be great, granted that hedges on Fire Flask and Thousand Cuts.
Thoughts?
Tempest:
Changes the classic rogue playstyle. Stealth becomes optional, and not required.
Flask of Fire: Lets you get off 4 attacks. Good burst.
Flask of Lightning: No damage increase. Let's you escape, or move into place a bit better.
Flask of Frost: Freezing sets up for a few shatter combos.
Tempest work very well with a Knockout Powder and Mercy Killing rogue build, who focus on Shatter and Panic. It's dps isn't near that of an Assassin, but the survivability is a good chunk above.
Sr, to answer your question: No. They don't suck. People just like the challenge of not relying on focus abilities, and when they want to play a rogue -- they want to play a rogue with stealth. There is also the issue that flasks that 3 of 8 slots. TC, Evade and Stealth, and you are down to 2 slots. To maximize the potential of the Tempest rogue, you should also run with Knockout Powder. That means you must choose between Twin Fangs, Deathblow and Shadow Strike, whereas the latter is better due to Flask of Fire.
So you can either drop Knockout Powder and get Twin Fangs, or vice versa. Not fun!
There is also the fact that a Tempest Rogue would need to gain Armor penetration and 70%+ crit chance to be "competetive!", whereas an assassin rogue gets a near free 100% armor penetration from the getgo. They also get instant crit from stealth, so they can run use stat points in + Flanking, Crit damage or Attack. This means their damage increase exponential towards the end, whereas a Tempest is more linear.
Lastly there is the issue with Flask of Lightning. In the start its fun, then its a chore. Once your mid-late game, you don't want to slow down the time. You want to nuke out packs of enemies in seconds. That means FoLi loses its worth. At the same time Flask of Fire loses some of its worth against an assassin, since the assassin regain all their stamina with Looked Like it Hurt + 50 stamina on kill(The name escapes me now..). With the burst of a mid-late game assassin, CDs are never an issue either. Things die before you've run out of abilities.
That leaves only Flask of Frost in favor for the Tempest, which is more defensive than anything. Even the freeze -- shatter loses towards an assassin who pops Hidden Blade or just Twin Fangs from Stealth -- restealth.
So. Yeah. No, Tempest DW are fine, but Assassins are better. Which is probably why you see so many assassins around. It doesn't matter though -- you can do Nightmare without any specialization fine, so pick whichever interest you!
Clearly you haven't played a Tempest very extensively. They rely plenty on stealth.
Tempests are typically the choice for soloing, if you want to do that. Their DPS is fine. Assassin DPS may be better in group, depending on how you play, because Mark of Death is awesome and you can often use it 2-3 times in a typical fight. Then again, Flask of Fire + Twin Fangs or Deathblow spam is also awesome, Flask of Lightning is awesome, and Flask of Frost gives you invulnerability to melee + Shatter for a while.
The main drawback is that the flasks + Thousand Cuts take up half of your skill bar, so you have to choose your other skills carefully. Knockout Powder is a terrible idea unless you're severely undergeared and need the extra CC.
Tempests aren't uncommon. People don't talk much about them here, but if you look around on Youtube or other forums, they're pretty popular.
Clearly you haven't played a Tempest very extensively. They rely plenty on stealth.
I dare to wager my left shoe I have played it more than you.
Tempests are typically the choice for soloing, if you want to do that.
The OP never mentioned solo. Why did you?
Then again, Flask of Fire + Twin Fangs or Deathblow spam is also awesome, Flask of Lightning is awesome, and Flask of Frost gives you invulnerability to melee + Shatter for a while.
With extensive testing of the Tempest, and the most precise explanation you got is "awesome"? Interesting.
Let's do this dance again. Who doesn't love a pissing contest between strangers?
Here is what I wrote to an earlier poster wanting to ****** in cross with me. You are allowed to disagree -- but actually back it up witout assuming, okay? 
Here is the key movement about Tempest and Assassin. Testes through and through.
- 2 different playstyles. Assassin builds on burst, stealth and damage. Tempest build on control, survivability and fun effects.
* Tempest abilities consist of 3 flask and a focus ability. these are: Flask of Fire, Flask of Frost and Flask of Lightning. The focus ability is calledThousand Cuts.
* An assassin gets 3 abilities and a focus ability. These are Hidden Blade, Knockout bomb and mark of death. The focus ability is called Cloak of Shadows.
First off: You do not judge a class based off of one ability. You don't. Doesn't matter if it is broken, OP or otherwise amazing. Hence we do not judge Assassin versus Tempest on Mark of Death vs Thousand Cuts. That would be like comparing a shotguns reload speed to a pistol. They both can, and will, kill any enemy in the game as they finish -- but Thousand Cuts is both on a long CD(You need to gain three stacks of focus!) and ends faster than Mark of Death.
That means we can isolate the difference into 2 cases: As a whole class, and as a specialization. Let's do so. Let's compare the specialization up to each other, and see what sort of funniness(is that a word?) we get!
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Tempest
Active:
- Flask of Frost - 85% damage resistance, 5 seconds, freeze for 1 second, 32 second CD.
* Area of use: As a survial tool, or a tool to freeze AoE. Mediocre damage ability.
- Flask of Fire - No cost or CD on abilities, 5 seconds, 32 second CD.
* Are of use: Able to spam attacks. As an archer this equals 3 Long shots or 2-3 full Draw. As a melee this equal 4-5 Twin Fangs or Deathblows. Good damage ability.
- Flask of Lightning - 2 effects, depending on whether you control the character or not. Either a huge attack speed modifier, or a slow down. 7 seconds, 32 second CD. Good survival, decent damage if you are not controlling. In this time you got enough time to do 1 combo. Stamina is a ******!
Passives:
- Flaskmaster - 25% to not use a flask. Random -- but decent. 3 dexterity.
- Fury of the storm - Damage bonus on low stamina. Good within Flask of lighting - rather useless with Flask of Fire unless you plan it. 3 constitution (lol)
- Ride the Storm - 3 second if you active a flask right after another. If you plan it out, this means you can get an extra 2 auto attacks off in FoL, another Longshot or full drawn in FoFi or live longer in FoFo. Decent all around. 3 dexterity.
- Killer's Alchemy - Gains damage on using an elixir of potion. Very strong combo, as it stacks. Using a potion + an elixir gives 30% damage for 10 seconds. 3 consitution (lol)
Focus ability:
Thousand Cuts - 38 hits. Each one does 300% weapon damage. In itself it is enough to drop a high dragon to half health.
Assassin
Active:
- Hidden Blade - 6 hits, 65 stamina, 32 second CD, 300% weapon damage, ranged. High damage ranged attack.
- Knockout Bomb - 10 seconds, 35 stamina, 20 second CD. AOE CC. In itself it's just a sleep CC.
- Mark of Death - 8 seconds, 10 stamina, 32 second, 20% armor reduction. Damage taken in these 8 seconds will be added as it expires. This can also crit.
Passive:
- Throatcutter - 2% damage for each 10% missing health. Mediocre.
- I was never here - Killing an enemy reduces the CD on stealth. Strong on mobbing, useless on bosses/dragons.
- Knife in the Shadows - Auto crit from stealth (!!). Very, very, good.
- Gaps in the Armor - 25% passive armor penetration. Frees up stat points that would otherwise need to go into armor penetration.
Focus:
Cloak of Shadows - Your team goes into stealth for 9 seconds. They also gain the stealth buff, meaning 50% damage increase as their first attack.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Now. What does all this mean? Simple. A Tempest is limited in his/her gearing choices. For optimal damage you need to reach close to 70%-100% crit chance. That takes a lot of points. An assassin, on the other hand, does not need this. His crit is already 100% out of stealth, which is all he needs. This means every single point a tempest get into crit, the assassin gets into Flanking Damage or Crit Damage. Obviously some crit is wanted, due to Mark of Deaths ability to crit.
If we look at synergy between trees, as a class on its own. There is a few obvious thing to notice:
1) Pincushion is the reason Thousand Cut can kill a High Dragon. 38 hits, each hit increases the damage by 5%. That's 190% damage increase by the end.
2) Cheap Shot increase armor penetration even more. In Mark of Death, you got a passive near 100% armor reduction on the target. Whilst a Tempest gets.. none?
3) An assassin can utilize Knockout Bomb with Mercy Killing for some absurd damage. From stealth it means 1-shot to any non-tank enemies. Even if they are tanks, they die within a combo.
4) A tempest can utilize Shadow Strike within to have near 100% uptime on flasks. The damage is mediocre -- but it's there.
5) Flask of Lightning + Mercy Killing + Knockout Powder is a valid combination. Most of the time it will be auto attacks.
6) Flask of Frost --> Flask of fire + shattering is a valid combination. But you can't do more than a few shatters.
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At a min/max perspective an assassin outclasses a tempest in damage. Yes, yes, I hear you "But hurrr durr dragon died in 1 focus ability :<". Yes. It did. It also takes you.. 5 minutes to get 3 focus? Which means it is only used if you use it rarely. So, let's say you have killed no High Dragons. I tell you to race through them as fast as possible. Who wins? The guy who spends 5 minute fighting enemies to get focus, or the guy who kills it in 8 seconds?
Why is this, you might ask? - First off. Assassin don't need to build for crit. That's the big clue. Crit takes a lot of stat from a Rogue. This could be used for flanking, which is huge, or crit damage. which is also huge. The theoretical damage is miles beyond what a Tempest can hope to achieve. That said, a tempest is a different playstyle altogether. A team player. FoFo makes for good "OH ****!" times, FoFi makes for good damage and FoL makes for good positioning or poison-spreading.
I'm struggling with deciding which DW specialization I'll go with as well. Approaching Skyhold soon.
From what I understand (based on these forums), Tempest is good for groups of enemies and Assassin is a good build to really burst down bosses. But I could be wrong.
I dare to wager my left shoe I have played it more than you.
My my, a bit sensitive, are we? Maybe I should have been less generous and said you haven't played it well. If you're recommending crap like Knockout Powder and saying ridiculous stuff like Tempests don't use Stealth, then you've got very little idea of how to play one effectively.
Plenty of people have chimed in on the thread you quoted and pointed out how wrong you are on multiple counts. Feel free to ignore all of that and pretend you're some kind of authority on the subject, though.
I'm struggling with deciding which DW specialization I'll go with as well. Approaching Skyhold soon.
From what I understand (based on these forums), Tempest is good for groups of enemies and Assassin is a good build to really burst down bosses. But I could be wrong.
All 3 specs kill dragons in seconds
Here's my rogue Steve:
Here's an assassin:
(I think with optimized gear he can shave off another 5-10 sec.)
Here's an artificer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spdZzc1U7Og (looked like he was doing around 70k per double volley from leaping shot+Hail of Arrows)
1) If you want to fight a dragon straight up and want to see 100k crits with Mark of Death = Assassin
2) If you want to fight a dragon from afar with leaping shot spam and bow abilities = Artificer
3) If you don't mind priming for a few seconds (like charging mega man's hand cannon) you can burst a dragon dead in 2 seconds = Tempest
All this is solo. You can do whatever in general fights.
So in conclusion, it just depends on your playstyle.
My my, a bit sensitive, are we? Maybe I should have been less generous and said you haven't played it well. If you're recommending crap like Knockout Powder and saying ridiculous stuff like Tempests don't use Stealth, then you've got very little idea of how to play one effectively.
Plenty of people have chimed in on the thread you quoted and pointed out how wrong you are on multiple counts. Feel free to ignore all of that and pretend you're some kind of authority on the subject, though.
You have yet to prove anything wrong though. But, sure. 1) Who ever said they did not use stealth? 2) Do you even know why I recommend Knockout Powder?
I await your well thought out reply, which will both prove me wrong and amaze me at the same time. You certainly seem like the type who does both!
I'm struggling with deciding which DW specialization I'll go with as well. Approaching Skyhold soon.
From what I understand (based on these forums), Tempest is good for groups of enemies and Assassin is a good build to really burst down bosses. But I could be wrong.
artificer :DD
artificer is so fun x33
if the tweaking the focus to be an extra blade attackign with you it would be perfect x333
stealth + upgrade spike trap + twin fangs on a knocked down flanked enemy from stealth? :DD
YES PLZ DAMAGE PLZ
Well, repeatedly doing Shadow Strike simply by smashing a bottle in my face pretty much did it for me. Also, I couldn't stand how Assassin abilities always look like you can't use them. Stupid shady redness.
All 3 specs kill dragons in seconds
Here's my rogue Steve: Almost wish there were 2 dragons here, as I dished enough damage out to kill 2 Highland Ravagers (only used about 23 hits of 38 from TC, and the last hits from TC do significantly more damage due to Pincushion)
Here's an assassin: (I think with optimized gear he can shave off another 5-10 sec.)
Here's an artificer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spdZzc1U7Og (looked like he was doing around 70k per double volley from leaping shot+Hail of Arrows)
1) If you want to fight a dragon straight up and want to see 100k crits with Mark of Death = Assassin
2) If you want to fight a dragon from afar with leaping shot spam and bow abilities = Artificer
3) If you don't mind priming for a few seconds (like charging mega man's hand cannon) you can burst a dragon dead in 2 seconds = Tempest
All this is solo. You can do whatever in general fights.
So in conclusion, it just depends on your playstyle.
sure just kill all the things dont you
Wow limbo you rock. What did you do to kill them so fast? Tempest seemed to just use lightning elixir, pop a potion and 1000 cuts.
Assasin I see you popping a potion, mark of death then hidden blades and then you were just a flurry of hits (spinning blades?). Not sure what happened but I want to do that.
Hehe my guy is the Tempest, the other guys are just links from other videos that have been linked here by other posters. All I did with my guy was stack passive buffs (11x killers alchemy, mighty offense potion, stealth) and craft appropriate gear then pop Thousand Cuts from the flank. To tell you the truth though every specialization class is covered so you can theoretically do all 3 via your companions, just not solo.
well if you want
brign three rogues all different specs
and solas for pull of the abyss
you will.... kill face
Flask of Lightning: No damage increase. Let's you escape, or move into place a bit better.
Lastly there is the issue with Flask of Lightning. In the start its fun, then its a chore. Once your mid-late game, you don't want to slow down the time. You want to nuke out packs of enemies in seconds. That means FoLi loses its worth.
Never agreed with this part, though I know some people see it that way. FoL is a tremendous damage increase relative to the game (i.e. the only thing that matters unless you're trying to set a speed run record) and will let you kill most non-boss enemies during its duration without them being able to hit back or avoid you. And this includes mauler-kind enemies with AoE 2H attacks otherwise prone to knock you around.
As for whether or not it's fun or a chore is obviously up to the player, but in my opinion this remains one of the most fun abilities to use throughout the game. It appears some people want combat to be like an instant affair where one button more or less immediately wipes out all enemies (think Ctrl+Y in BG2) and where things like actual moving, fighting and mixed ability use are seen as 'chores'; but for those who enjoy immersion and actually like playing their character in combat, FoL is great. It's like on-demand slow-motion, making you feel fast enough to pluck arrows from the air. To me it's a feeling that doesn't cease to be satisfying.
That said, there is also a lot to be said for the assassin. To me the tempest-assassin choice ultimately comes down to a choice of how you like to play and/or imagine your character to be - a swashbuckler type with lightning-speed reflexes able to run circles around his opponents; or a stealthy shadow type that appears at will out of nowhere, strikes, and then vanishes again. I don't think the debate on which of the two is 'best' or 'strongest' is relevant, and haven't seen it ever really amount to anything.
I ended up going with Tempest and I am very happy with my choice. I'm all about the fun factor. Tempest seemed fun with being able to do things like, I don't know, smash flasks to stop time, become invulnerable and freeze enemies and set myself on fire while spamming abilities with my dagwags.
Then again, I'm not much of a min/max type of player, especially with single player games. I'm all about having fun and the tempest fits the bill in that regard!
I'm planning a DW tempest for my next run and played around with Sera in that spec on my last play through just to see how it would work.
She was an absolute beast with it. And I had a blast when I took over Sera myself.
I'm sorry I'm new to this forum and so I havn't seen many posts but why does nobody ever discuss the OP of tempest that is still possible since Bioware has not patched.
That is Flast of fire + thousand cuts like every 30 secs. I used to think I was having fun with Knight Enchanter until I started killing everyone in an AOE with 1 spell within 2 seconds in EVERY fight.
I'm sorry I'm new to this forum and so I havn't seen many posts but why does nobody ever discuss the OP of tempest that is still possible since Bioware has not patched.
It was discussed the first day or so. Around the same time people called KE the most OP thing in the world.
Then everybody got bored of it.
Weird, huh?
It was discussed the first day or so. Around the same time people called KE the most OP thing in the world.
Then everybody got bored of it.
Weird, huh?
I still find it funny that Tempest never got the "OMG NERF PLOX!" treatment.
Meanwhile the Artificer remains the underappreciated gem in the rogue crown.
Lol. Ye why is that?
I saw a lot of posts across forums where people were petitioning to nerf Knight Enchanter, whereas for tempest people just thought "its a bug and will be patched soon". Yet it still remains.
I see a ton of builds for Assassin and not doubting that they are very powerful but why no Dual-Wield Tempests?
Seems to be Thousand Cuts is much more of a DW still than a bow skill.
Is there something about it that makes it suck?
I am planning my third rogue to see if I can hit the numbers that people report, I made some mistakes with my first DW and Archer.
I planned to do a DW Tempest and it sounds like it should be great, granted that hedges on Fire Flask and Thousand Cuts.
Thoughts?
Everyone is so busy arguing about Tempest's utility and playstyle that I don't think anyone answered your question. So, here's the answer:
DW Tempests are fine, there's nothing wrong with them. The reason people often prefer Archer is because Thousand Cuts does 300% base weapon damage (NOT DPS) per hit, and bows have a higher base damage. Therefore, bows output superior damage when using Thousand Cuts. If you're combining this with the FoF glitch, then you're constantly spamming obscene damage. Of course, it's so much overkill that DW is still totally broken anyway. 
My issue with DW tempest was the "whish" factor of Shadow Strike and Twin Fangs. Too often, while under flask of fire, it was "whish" "whish" "whish" and then it's over.
Tempest has ZERO synergy with stealth and does not promote stealth gameplay.
Worst...specialization....ever.
The only good thing about tempest was the FoF 1k hits exploit. And it gets old fast.
Assassin offers a mini-thousand cuts, HUGE crits, and synergy with stealth. That is the recipe for awesome-rogue-sauce.
Instead of crafting armor penetration for tempests, what if you used sunder skills on your other characters?
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