191 réponses à ce sujet

[TheTsar_]

The amount of people that blindly defend shitty design choices and blatant plot holes is astonishing, no wonder the quality of games has dropped so much recently.. It's too easy to please the masses who are happy with good graphics and flashing lights.

[papercut_ninja]

Actually Loghaine's beacon makes perfect sense, if you accept the idea that Loghaine planned to leave King Cailan and the wardens to die right from the beginning. I believe he knew that the tower had been compromised by Darkspawn tunnels and chose it as the location for the beacon because he assumed it would be overrun and any attempt at lighting the beacon would fail, giving Loghaine the perfect excuse, "I waited for Cailan's signal to charge, but it never came, by the time I realized something was wrong, it was already too late." *insert fake tears here*

 

"Teyrn Loghain...why insist on such a complicated setup, surely a messenger can blow a horn to signal the assault instead?"

 

"Because...cake! Now do as I say!"

[Vox Draco]

Actually Loghaine's beacon makes perfect sense, if you accept the idea that Loghaine planned to leave King Cailan and the wardens to die right from the beginning. I believe he knew that the tower had been compromised by Darkspawn tunnels and chose it as the location for the beacon because he assumed it would be overrun and any attempt at lighting the beacon would fail, giving Loghaine the perfect excuse, "I waited for Cailan's signal to charge, but it never came, by the time I realized something was wrong, it was already too late." *insert fake tears here*

 

Ahem ... I don't buy that. I mean I buy that Loghain always planned his cowardly betrayal but ... every little sergeant in the army must have shook his head at this "plan", there is no military-reason at all why this beacon-lighting would be essential to the attack ... and a lot of assumptions made here what Loghain knew or not...did he even collapse the tunnels to let the darkspawn in? No, the beacon is just a neat plot-way to have teh Warden's gone from the actual battle. Contrived.

 

"Feldmarschall Blucher, look, Wellington is hard pressed! Ve must engage now, or Napoleon will win zis day!"

 

"Nein, my son. Ve must wait, ze signal at ze farmstead is not yet lit! Everyone knows zis is essential in warfare, light ze beacon first, only zen attack! Ve wait!"

 

And this is why we all speak such perfect french today ^^ Vive l'Empereur!

[Farangbaa]

HA! I still cringe every time Loghain tells us of his master-plan-strategy: We will attack the Darkspawn-flanks when we see the beacon lit at this tower ...

 

Ahem ... what is the point?? You attack the flanks of an enemy when they are engaged and unaware, wrapping them in death, shattering their morale with an unexpected assault they can hardly repel. Why do they need some warden's put fire to a torch on a tower, with the Warden's at that point totally unaware how the battle is turning out? If there was, I don#t know, a magical reason for teh becaon or such thing...but no, its just a signal. A trumpet, messengers or simply timing could have been enough. Loghain is supposed to be a master-general. Why would he need the beacon to know when to attack? All you need is your eyes, scouts and experience as a general

 

As you see, that really bugged me...

 

And don't get me started about Mass Effect. If we want to find logic there, especially with introducing ME2, we enter wacky-land ...

 

Ha

 

Having two Grey Warden in the tower instead of on the front lines in case everything goes to **** (which is exactly how it went), is smart planning by Duncan. If all Wardens get massacred on the frontlines, who is going to stop a potential archdemon from annihilating Ferelden? Wardens in Orlais were too far at the time...

 

That's not really what's stupid about it. What's stupid is that Loghain, the master general, needs a beacon and not some simpler means like.. a horn. A flare. A magic bolt. Whatever. A direct signal from the battlefield, and not something from the battlefield to the beacon to Loghain. That is just stupid.

[Ashagar]

The amount of people that blindly defend shitty design choices and blatant plot holes is astonishing, no wonder the quality of games has dropped so much recently.. It's too easy to please the masses who are happy with good graphics and flashing lights.

 

About as astonishing as those who nitpick every little thing and blows minor plot holes up until their the size of Olympus Mons and views their opinion on design choices to be the divine truth on the matter.

[papercut_ninja]

Having two Grey Warden in the tower instead of on the front lines in case everything goes to **** (which is exactly how it went), is smart planning by Duncan. If all Wardens get massacred on the frontlines, who is going to stop a potential archdemon from annihilating Ferelden? Wardens in Orlais were too far at the time...

 

...except that having them in the tower didn't didn't provide any protection against said scenario at all...a witch in the shape of a dragon had to come and pluck them out to save them...

[robertthebard]

Agreed with OP. Severely disappointed with BSN. So, if someone sees a plot hole, he/she is nitpicking or trolling? Ugh, what? But I guess plot doesn't matter much when you have "oh pretty dragons!" and "oh the romancez!" to distract you. 
 
I also found that scene ridiculous. Why wasn't anyone guarding the doors when Cory was doing the dirty thing with the Divine? He couldn't even lock the fricken door? Why did he just stare at the magic orb when it fell and rolled to our hero?  
 
Holes in storytelling like this take away a lot from player experience. Especially when the game markets itself to be a deep and complex story.

How does contrived equal plot hole? You see, the whole idea behind saying "it's contrived" is that it can never happen. However, we see the flaw to this premise in the prologue, before we even know it's Cory: "Kill the intruder". Who else is there to kill the intruder, if not the Warden mages? Hey, all of a sudden, the people doing the holding have shifted their focus to killing you, and the lady they're holding is free to take the one action she can: She knocks the orb out of Cory's hand. Seems pretty straight forward to me.

[Draining Dragon]

The entire point of your thread is one big assumption. Because BioWare didn't spell out every minute detail of what happened, you assume any part you don't fully understand as just being bad writing. There are easy and rather quite obvious explanations for every point you bring up, but I suspect no explanation will be good enough for you because you really just want to nitpick for the sake of nitpicking.

There really is no sensible explanation beyond the villains being hopelessly incompetent. And if that's the explanation, then the villains are poorly written.

[TheTsar_]

About as astonishing as those who nitpick every little thing and blows minor plot holes up until their the size of Olympus Mons and views their opinion on design choices to be the divine truth on the matter.

It's not a god damn nitpick.. IT'S A BLATANT PLOT HOLE. Magical binding spell just happens to wear off so the Divine can hit the magical ball in the direction of the person who enters the room that just happens to be the inquisitor who enters without any issue because there just happens to be no guards at the door. Don't even get me started on the ending, Corypheus lifts up Haven, effortlessly destroying everything but needs to have a full scale invasion when the inquisitor is there for plot reasons. It's a poorly written/designed console action game that spits on the name Dragon Age. 

 

 

"You interrupted a ritual years in the planning." AND HE DIDN'T EVEN LOCK THE GOD DAMN DOOR.

[Violetbliss]

The way I saw that scene is that everybody was already dead or captured by the Venatori (or unnamed underlings, at least) that clearly enabled Corypheus to be there in the first place. Otherwise, he would be under attack in the vision. He then commands them to kill you - i guess you were bored on a balcony or outhouse ( ) while the templars & mages failed to reach any consensus I didn't have a big problem with the scene but it was a little blatant in how it was shown to everybody at the Breach. Unless Alexius had used some kind of time thing there too, I guess. 

[Conduit0]

Ahem ... I don't buy that. I mean I buy that Loghain always planned his cowardly betrayal but ... every little sergeant in the army must have shook his head at this "plan", there is no military-reason at all why this beacon-lighting would be essential to the attack ... and a lot of assumptions made here what Loghain knew or not...did he even collapse the tunnels to let the darkspawn in? No, the beacon is just a neat plot-way to have teh Warden's gone from the actual battle. Contrived.

The sergeants could shake their heads all they wanted, Loghaine was the General and Cailan was dumb enough to go along with anything Loghaine said.

[robertthebard]

It's not a god damn nitpick.. IT'S A BLATANT PLOT HOLE. Magical binding spell just happens to wear off so the Divine can hit the magical ball in the direction of the person who enters the room that just happens to be the inquisitor who enters without any issue because there just happens to be no guards at the door. Don't even get me started on the ending, Corypheus lifts up Haven, effortlessly destroying everything but needs to have a full scale invasion when the inquisitor is there for plot reasons. It's a poorly written/designed console action game that spits on the name Dragon Age.

Yes, because context is hard, if it's not laid out plainly for people professing to be Dragon Age fans? Over my years on the BSN, I have learned one thing, however, context is hard.

So here, allow me to simplify it:

Cory is doing the ritual to make the orb give him an anchor so that he can go physically into the Fade. The Warden mages are holding the Divine, so that Cory isn't splitting his concentration to both tasks. The soon to be Inquisitor walks in and disrupts the spells, causing Cory to order the only other people there, the mages responsible for holding the Divine, to kill the soon to be Inquisitor. This leaves the Divine unbound by their magic, since they have shifted focus to you, and in the ensuing moment of freedom, she knocks the orb out.

This is made perfectly clear between what we see in the prologue, and what happens in the Fade. People skipping through cutscenes, or missing the context does not a plot hole make.

[papercut_ninja]

The sergeants could shake their heads all they wanted, Loghaine was the General and Cailan was dumb enough to go along with anything Loghaine said.

 

...and Duncan had to insist on sending two freshman wardens there because...cake...and when Loghain protested that time, Cailan suddenly had the balls to overrule him...there´s a lot of hoops to jump through just to get the protagonists away from the battlefield into a place where a dragon could pick them up before they were overrun...which is what makes it a story crutch...

[TheTsar_]

Yes, because context is hard, if it's not laid out plainly for people professing to be Dragon Age fans? Over my years on the BSN, I have learned one thing, however, context is hard.

So here, allow me to simplify it:

Cory is doing the ritual to make the orb give him an anchor so that he can go physically into the Fade. The Warden mages are holding the Divine, so that Cory isn't splitting his concentration to both tasks. The soon to be Inquisitor walks in and disrupts the spells, causing Cory to order the only other people there, the mages responsible for holding the Divine, to kill the soon to be Inquisitor. This leaves the Divine unbound by their magic, since they have shifted focus to you, and in the ensuing moment of freedom, she knocks the orb out.

This is made perfectly clear between what we see in the prologue, and what happens in the Fade. People skipping through cutscenes, or missing the context does not a plot hole make.

He doesn't disrupt the spell, you can see it's still active, she just happens to be able to move and/or it stops working for those few seconds for plot reasons. And before you rant on about people missing cut-scenes and creating plot holes out of thin air, perhaps YOU should watch the cut-scenes. Corypheous has Warden warriors with him as well as Mage's. He has the Orb IN HIS HAND, but it only works when it's in the Inquisitor's hands? 

[Precursor Meta]

I'm surprised to see people denouncing this post as trolling.

[o Ventus]

 He has the Orb IN HIS HAND, but it only works when it's in the Inquisitor's hands? 

Corypheus also knows how to use the orb, the Inquisitor doesn't. Corypheus was most likely keeping whatever energy inside the orb contained for his ritual, and when it was knocked away and the Inquisitor picked it up, the Inquisitor f**ked it up and caused the explosion. The explosion was an accident.

[Conduit0]

There really is no sensible explanation beyond the villains being hopelessly incompetent. And if that's the explanation, then the villains are poorly written.

Well if the great Draining Dragon can't think of a sensible explanation, then it must be true.

[TheTsar_]

Corypheus also knows how to use the orb, the Inquisitor doesn't. Corypheus was most likely keeping whatever energy inside the orb contained for his ritual, and when it was knocked away and the Inquisitor picked it up, the Inquisitor f**ked it up and caused the explosion. The explosion was an accident.

Doesn't make the slightest bit of sense.. The Orb gave the Inquisitor the Anchor, it was obviously ready.. So what, did Corypheus want to go for sandwiches before he finally realized his main ambition? 

[stonerbishop]

Because the Maker planned it. Providence, As Cassandra says... or
Enchantment! As the maker says

[Cha0sEff3ct]

Don't ruin it with logic! 

 

If you believe in the maker and all things in this world, is it not possible that your accident was part of his plan? If you do not believe, then nothing has changed,

[papercut_ninja]

Because the Maker planned it. Providence, As Cassandra says... or
Enchantment! As the maker says

 

Because Cake! The Cake is not a lie!

[o Ventus]

Doesn't make the slightest bit of sense.. The Orb gave the Inquisitor the Anchor, it was obviously ready.. So what, did Corypheus want to go for sandwiches before he finally realized his main ambition? 

He was probably powering it up, otherwise he needn't have bothered keeping the Divine restrained when all he had to do was kill her. The orb was obviously volatile, when it was knocked out of Corypheus' hand and grabbed by someone who didn't know how to wield it, it "popped" so to speak. Like trying to open a can of soda after dropping it or shaking it.

[Conduit0]

...and Duncan had to insist on sending two freshman wardens there because...cake...and when Loghain protested that time, Cailan suddenly had the balls to overrule him...there´s a lot of hoops to jump through just to get the protagonists away from the battlefield into a place where a dragon could pick them up before they were overrun...which is what makes it a story crutch...

I never said it wasn't a story crutch, I simply said that the use of the beacon can make sense within the context of the story. The simple fact that they had to Deus Ex Flemeth the hero to safety proves how much of a story crutch the whole thing was.

[papercut_ninja]

I never said it wasn't a story crutch, I simply said that the use of the beacon can make sense within the context of the story. The simple fact that they had to Deus Ex Flemeth the hero to safety proves how much of a story crutch the whole thing was.

 

Exactly...you accept a few things and move on with the story...I didn't have a problem with it in DA:O, just showing it as an example that we have had no problems with story crutches before...

[VanguardCharge]

Exactly...you accept a few things and move on with the story...I didn't have a problem with it in DA:O, just showing it as an example that we have had no problems with story crutches before...

 

You and others convinced me that the beacon in Origins was contrived. Yes, it would've been easier for a mage to signal from a set position. But I still think that keeping 2 wardens of the frontlines in case everything goes to hell, has its value. 

 

But the Divine/Cory scene was worst. Not only was the most precious person in the Conclave unprotected, but Cory did not even bother locking the door and simply starred at the orb as it was rolling away. In my opinion, this is much more contrived than having two wardens signal the reserves.