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This plot is ridiculously contrived


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#101
papercut_ninja

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You and others convinced me that the beacon in Origins was contrived. Yes, it would've been easier for a mage to signal from a set position. But I still think that keeping 2 wardens of the frontlines in case everything goes to hell, has its value. 

 

But the Divine/Cory scene was worst. Not only was the most precious person in the Conclave unprotected, but Cory did not even bother locking the door and simply starred at the orb as it was rolling away. In my opinion, this is much more contrived than having two wardens signal the reserves. 

 

Some crutches may be more contrived than others...if the ones in DA:O weren't noticed by as many, it serves to prove that maybe they were better written and less apparent...I don´t need anyone to feel that what they liked better is wrong by any means...



#102
robertthebard

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He doesn't disrupt the spell, you can see it's still active, she just happens to be able to move and/or it stops working for those few seconds for plot reasons. And before you rant on about people missing cut-scenes and creating plot holes out of thin air, perhaps YOU should watch the cut-scenes. Corypheous has Warden warriors with him as well as Mage's. He has the Orb IN HIS HAND, but it only works when it's in the Inquisitor's hands?


Because spells don't work until they're finished? I have watched the cutscenes. What I haven't done is watch the cutscenes from the position of "I'm going to find even more stuff to complain about, because Tuesday's coming, and we're going to need a new thread". Context is everything, I even went slightly more rude than necessary, perhaps, to point that out previously. We don't get the anchor for walking in the door, we get it from picking up the orb, or did you miss that in your rush to claim there is no context to make the segment make sense? It's the half full/half empty syndrome: If you're looking for problems, you're going to find them, if you're looking for what's presented, it's rather obvious what's going on, especially in context with what we knew before we ever went to the Fade. There is nothing here that screams "PLOT HOLE" to anyone that's paid attention to what's going on from the beginning. I guess the only argument left is "If you'd quit white knighting you'd see what I'm talking about"?

#103
Isaidlunch

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What bugged me about the scene is that the Inquisitor goes over to the orb and picks it up. If a magical bowling ball was coming towards me my first reaction would certainly not be doing that.



#104
Vaz

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DA:I is the most agenda driven game I have ever played. It seems that the writers tried (too hard) to push a social agenda in every opportunity. I am glad writers have positions regarding social issues, and that they are not the soulless tools of a studio charged with imparting a bit of plot into a story concept, but I really don't care to have them push their political leanings or social agendas upon me. Do yourself a favor, EA, and make sure to tone it down a bit. You'll get more people to like your game that way. Some of us play games to escape from idiots touting the virtues or their opposition to of gay marriage, organized religion and political leaning. I don't need that garbage (pro or con) in my games.

And why is it so difficult to make a game more like Dragon Age Origins? DA2 was a decent story wrapped in crappy gameplay. DA:I has awesome visuals but some of the same crappy gameplay that made DA2 almost unplayable. I am replaying DA:O after sending Gamefly their copy of DA:I back and I sure am glad I didn't buy it. I'm still waiting for a decent sequel to the original.

Fire away, dissenters.
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#105
Vox Draco

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There really is no sensible explanation beyond the villains being hopelessly incompetent. And if that's the explanation, then the villains are poorly written.

 

Do we want our villains any different? Ah, the joy we would have lost if the Emperor in Star Wars just would have build even more Star Destroyers to tighten the griß over the galaxy instead of one big expensive planetary destruction device ... and he even built it twice! Some ruler of the galaxy! And oh, all you bond-Villains with nonsensical plans for world domination! Sauron, you old bugger, pouring all of your power into one ring and that you get hacked away from your finger...no wonder you played second fiddle to Morgoth!

 

A villain, perfectly competent and well written? Would crush the hero in the first five seconds and just dominate the world. Or would never encounter the hero at all ^^

 

However even the coolest and most competent villains have to bow to teh story's heroes and need for happy endings...

 

"But…it was so artistically done."

 

Grand Admiral Thrawn, Bilbringi Fleet Yards, last words


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#106
ashlover mark 2

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The Divine smacking the orb out of Corypheus hand was cringe worthy. It just adds to the overall ineptitude of Corypheus-- from the beginning,all  it takes is minimal effort to thwart him.  I mean really... Five Grey Warden mages can't hold a 70 year old lady still? Corypheus has the dexterity of an infant? This Isn't even nitpicking, it's simply bad writing.


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#107
Ashagar

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You mean other than everyone's attention is on the soon to be herald who their puppet master just ordered to kill?



#108
ashlover mark 2

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You mean other than everyone's attention is on the soon to be herald who their puppet master just ordered to kill?

Right... So ONE Grey warden cant hold an old lady still. Corypheus can be thwarted with a smack. Epic Bioware writing. Lets blindy prasie them.



#109
Hazegurl

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Mass Effect: oh hey shepherd. I see you are working with cerberus. That's cool. We trust you.

Or

 

Kaidan: "You work for Cerberus, I don't trust you!"

 

Fanboys/girls: "F*ck you Kaidan! I'm killing you on Virmire next time! Bah!"

 

As for the conclave. I wonder why no one was suspicious of a Grey Warden army of mages when the rebellon was started by a former GW mage.  lol!!


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#110
MrTride

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Well Im personally a bit dissapointed... I wished there were more background story about the inquisitor. Sure at the moment im a carta dwarf but whould be more interesting with a better background story as to why a carta dwarf were there in the first place... the "Spy" deal dont work too well. Id rather see a background story involving trying to make deals with the templars and mages at the meeting. (as an example). Since i dont really feel that much for my dwarf inquisitors backstory.

 

Even if i might agree som plot holes are left open around how the events at the temple of sacred ashes acctually occurred their quite easy to fill with logical conclusions.

 

1. My answer to why the divine acctually could end up in that situation, might be becouse of the grey wardens being present. Concidering the mage and templar rebellion, aswell as the problematic situation involving the seekers. The grey wardens might have either acted as her personal guard or demanded an audience with her prior to the meeting. Its highly possible concidering Grey Wardens high regard in Orlais, to get a personal audience without guards. Leliana does also mention her suspicion of wardens very early in the storyline, long before the acctuall memories return to the inquisitor. 

 

Corypheus most likely already were present at the temple of sacred ashes, prior to the acctuall meeting. Concidering Corypheus control of the corrupt wardens it whould be quite easy for the wardens to get divine Justinia into an appropiate position. Chain her with blood magic and significantly hamper her strenght to resist, which obviously also makes it harder to cry out for help.

 

As for the inquisitor;

Dalish Elves and Carta Dwarf - Spying around and ends up there by coincidence.

Humans - Highly devout family and might per chance be the first one to open the door after Corypheus started speaking (Hes way to loud). Aswell as Trevelyans have close ties to the templar order so he/she might acctually feel something amiss concidering the blood ritual used to bind the divine.

Mages - Probably sensed the ritual or the disturbance in the fade.

Qunari - Was hired as extra protection by the chantry, so might be that the inquisitor as the leader took personal responsibility as to check on her.

 

As far as we know the meeting itself might not have started yet or had already been held. But most likely this happened before any meeting started.

 

2. As the magic binding the Divine most likely were blood magic, Justinia should have a natural resistance too its influence. Chantry sisters do not go trought the same rites as the seekers. But concidering the divines duties and strong devotion they should still achive a high grade of resistance towards magic influences. Concidering the friendly spirit in the fade, i whouldnt be suprised if Divine Justinia acctually had encountered a spirit of faith. It also explains why the spirit retained her memories and assumed her shape. It whould also explain why Corypheus needed her as a sacrifice to activate the anchor. Concidering the enormous amount of power the spirit contains.

 

If we look at the Divines situation. Being bound by strong blood magic and being alone, she most likely were conserving her strenght to get answers out of corypheus. Then as she saw oppertunity used her last strenght to push the anchor out of corypheus hand.

3. To be entierly honest i think both the Anchor and the orb of destruction, can become fused with the user. But as Corypheus is a darkspawn, the taint might prevent him from physically merging with either orb. To activate the Anchor corypheus most likely needed a spirits power, but since corypheus is what he is... its probably very likely that his mere presence whould corrupt stronger spirits into demons as their easially corrupted by mortal influence. Divine Justinia whould in that case be a perfect vessel to extract spiritual power from and thus activate the anchor. Why the anchor kept being active might be becouse of the inquisitions frequent use of it in attempts to seal the rifts. The best explaination whould be the inquisitors first attempt to seal the breach stabilized its power and full control were finally achived.

 

The anchor were then further enhanced after corypheus tried to remove it using the orb of destruction. That attempt most likely resulted in that the anchor absorbed power from the orb of destuction, thus making Corypheus orb unstable. Which explains why the orb broke in the end. Solas interest in the orbs, might be becouse the former elven pantheon might had used "his orb" which probably were the anchor (unclear if Solas / Fen' Harel  / Dread Wolf, refers to the anchor or the orb of destruction in the epiloge). But i assume the orb Corypheus possess is a relic from a forgotten one (Dumat). Solas also whitout any explaination shows the inquisitor how to use the mark, which further enhances the theory of Fen' Harel being the former owner of the anchor.

 

4. Well concidering the tempels layout from DA:O. Having guards outside of the door might had caused suspicion, or the inquisitor could had forced his way trought the guards if any. Especially since a large number of guards whould attract more attention.

 

5. Corypheus is way to flashy for such things. He want to hear his victims beg for their lives or ask questions so he can brag about his superiority.



#111
Draining Dragon

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As I said before, a lot of plots, especially fantasy plots, require that someone suspend their disbelief to some extent (read: people must be willing to accept a certain level of contrivance).

This case just struck me as more overtly contrived than what we normally see from Bioware.

The Divine smacking the orb out of Corypheus hand was cringe worthy. It just adds to the overall ineptitude of Corypheus-- from the beginning,all it takes is minimal effort to thwart him. I mean really... Five Grey Warden mages can't hold a 70 year old lady still? Corypheus has the dexterity of an infant? This Isn't even nitpicking, it's simply bad writing.


This is an excellent point.

#112
hellbiter88

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The divine slapped Cory's ball really, really hard.

 

That's all I know.


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#113
Draining Dragon

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The divine slapped Cory's ball really, really hard.
 
That's all I know.


Bioware, hire this man!
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#114
hellbiter88

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On a more serious note: PLOT QUESTION

 

What was it about the Divine that made the ball work? Like I don't get it. An appointed position held some special power or something? Why was the Divine's lifeforce needed to activate the thing? Was this explained?


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#115
Nimlowyn

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On a more serious note: PLOT QUESTION

 

What was it about the Divine that made the ball work? Like I don't get it. An appointed position held some special power or something? Why was the Divine's lifeforce needed to activate the thing? Was this explained?

I think you're right in that an appointed position has a special power. Divine Justinia, as head of the Chantry, was the most powerful person in Thedas. She was Thedas' moral leader and spiritual guide, and the last thread holding everything together. Not only does her death set things practically into chaos, but it is highly symbolic. (Making himself a god by sacrificing the vicar of Andraste? That is way too delicious for a prideful bastard like Corypants to pass up). It is both a literal and moral blow. With the people in despair and the Chantry in chaos, Thedas is ripe for the picking. 

 

I don't recall if it was explicitly stated, Corypheus did this because of that, but I think you can surmise from people like Mother Giselle and Vivienne, as well as from the events itself. That's my take, anyway. 


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#116
Uhh.. Jonah

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The entire point of your thread is one big assumption. Because BioWare didn't spell out every minute detail of what happened, you assume any part you don't fully understand as just being bad writing. There are easy and rather quite obvious explanations for every point you bring up, but I suspect no explanation will be good enough for you because you really just want to nitpick for the sake of nitpicking.


Questioning why the most important figure at the conclave, even southern thedas, was not heavily guarded? Especially after what happened with Anders? Right, let's just ignore holes in the story because there's an "obvious explanation" that everyone is somehow suppose to know about??? OP made raised some good points, and rather fairly.
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#117
Precursor Meta

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I think you're right in that an appointed position has a special power. Divine Justinia, as head of the Chantry, was the most powerful person in Thedas. She was Thedas' moral leader and spiritual guide, and the last thread holding everything together. Not only does her death set things practically into chaos, but it is highly symbolic. (Making himself a god by sacrificing the vicar of Andraste? That is way too delicious for a prideful bastard like Corypants to pass up). It is both a literal and moral blow. With the people in despair and the Chantry in chaos, Thedas is ripe for the picking. 
 
I don't recall if it was explicitly stated, Corypheus did this because of that, but I think you can surmise from people like Mother Giselle and Vivienne, as well as from the events itself. That's my take, anyway.


Pride seems to be Cory's weakness. But he could've got away with so much more if he just sacrificed some lowly individual and then went after the divine.

#118
luism

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The divine could slap a basketball through a straw.. Or so Ive heard.

#119
AlexMBrennan

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You and others convinced me that the beacon in Origins was contrived. Yes, it would've been easier for a mage to signal from a set position. But I still think that keeping 2 wardens of the frontlines in case everything goes to hell, has its value.

The exact details are that Alistair was to light the beacon when signalled by Duncan, so this makes perfect sense since, presumably, the main force does not have a direct line of sight to Loghain's army waiting to flank the darkspawn - hardly the first use of a signal relay in history or fiction.



#120
Nimlowyn

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Pride seems to be Cory's weakness. But he could've got away with so much more if he just sacrificed some lowly individual and then went after the divine.

Perhaps he could have, but then he wouldn't be Corypants. 



#121
X Equestris

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On a more serious note: PLOT QUESTION
 
What was it about the Divine that made the ball work? Like I don't get it. An appointed position held some special power or something? Why was the Divine's lifeforce needed to activate the thing? Was this explained?


It didn't have to be be the Divine. Using her was both symbolic and had the practical benefit of decapitating the Chantry and sowing chaos. It would also let him build his army of followers, since preventing mage-templar peace would let his agents subvert both sides.
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#122
Hazegurl

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Pride seems to be Cory's weakness. But he could've got away with so much more if he just sacrificed some lowly individual and then went after the divine.

The plot bascially relies on everyone being stupid.

 

Cory is stupid

Grey Wardens are stupid

Mages are stupid

Templars are stupid


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#123
Ashagar

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Coryhpeus chief sin is his overwhelming pride not stupidity. Pride causes the downfall even the greatest heroes and villains because their overwhelming pride leads to their downfall. Its a common theme in the ancient greek and roman tales and plays as well as the works of Shakespeare, Tolken and many of the great classic writers.



#124
NM_Che56

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Could you clarify as to why you feel that way?

Yes.



#125
MisterJB

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Questioning why the most important figure at the conclave, even southern thedas, was not heavily guarded? Especially after what happened with Anders? Right, let's just ignore holes in the story because there's an "obvious explanation" that everyone is somehow suppose to know about??? OP made raised some good points, and rather fairly.

 

Who is to say she was not heavily guarded and her guard was killed by the Grey Wardens?

I'd expect that if the OP was going to call the plot contrived, he would focus on more than one event.