191 réponses à ce sujet

[X Equestris]

The real question is: How the hell did the Inquisitor get away with killing everyone at the conclave and then getting hailed as the savior without anyone calling her/him out on it?
In terms of DA heros the Inquisitor totally lucked out.
I mean most people blame The Warden for the Death of king Caillan for a long time. And everybody basically blames Hawke for everything. Meanwhile the Inquisitor gets away with actually being responisble for blowing up the conclave but everybody falls to their knees and whorships her/him after the first 15 Minutes of the game.

The only reason the belief that we caused the destruction of died quickly is because Cassandra saw the little Fade echo of what happened there. It still lingers otherwise. And what we see in the Fade during the Adamant mission is both clearly an accident and only seen by a very small group of people.

[Ashagar]

The real question is: How the hell did the Inquisitor get away with killing everyone at the conclave and then getting hailed as the savior without anyone calling her/him out on it?

In terms of DA heros the Inquisitor totally lucked out.

I mean most people blame The  Warden for the Death of king Caillan for a long time. And everybody basically blames Hawke for everything. Meanwhile the Inquisitor gets away with actually being responisble for blowing up the conclave but everybody falls to their knees and whorships her/him after the first 15 Minutes of the game.

 

The explosion according to solas was the result of the build up of energy in the orb over countless millennia since it was last used and I doubt anyone other than Solas, Flemeth/mythral or the ancient elves dreamers could have unlocked the orb safely without the boom.

[Vox Draco]

The plot bascially relies on everyone being stupid.

 

Cory is stupid

Grey Wardens are stupid

Mages are stupid

Templars are stupid

 

At least they have good company:

 

Eddard Stark is stupid

Rob Stark is stupid

Galadriel/Elrond/Gandalf are stupid

Sauron is beyond stupid

The Emperor is stupid

The Old Republic is super-stupid

The old Jedi are stupid

Every Bond Villain is stupid

...

...

...

 

How boring stories would be if everyone knew what he's doing and what it would lead to^^

[MACharlie1]

At least they have good company:

 

Eddard Stark is stupid

Rob Stark is stupid

Galadriel/Elrond/Gandalf are stupid

Sauron is beyond stupid

The Emperor is stupid

The Old Republic is super-stupid

The old Jedi are stupid

Every Bond Villain is stupid

...

...

...

 

How boring stories would be if everyone knew what he's doing and what it would lead to^^

You wouldn't have a story. 

 

Story: something happens. Hero knows what to do. End story. Isn't this basic story-telling 101? 

[Elsariel]

Excepting that, it breaks one of the premises; you don't know what happened in the Conclave. The questions about it exist not arbitrarily, but because they're supposed to be there.

They could have changed it to say you don't remember what happened after you opened that door. So you notice somethings not right, you investigate to try to figure it out, you finally get to this door and hear "Somebody help meee", you throw open the door ("what's going on here?"), white screen and cut to the big boom scene from the main screen. Easy peasy.

You still wouldn't know how you got the mark or who was behind it. You could try to use some of the clues you gathered prior to the boom to piece together who may be involved. You know, doing inquisitorial stuff, which we don't actually do much of in game.

[Draining Dragon]

*snippity snip snip*

I specifically said multiple times that I voice no objection to some level of contrivance. My issue is with the way that this contrivance was handled. That is, it relies on the villain being utterly incompetent.

By your line of argument, a piece of writing is ALWAYS good, no matter how unnaturally it flows.

I told that poster to read the OP because they were echoing the same straw man that I had already refuted previously in the thread.

[robertthebard]

They could have changed it to say you don't remember what happened after you opened that door. So you notice somethings not right, you investigate to try to figure it out, you finally get to this door and hear "Somebody help meee", you throw open the door ("what's going on here?"), white screen and cut to the big boom scene from the main screen. Easy peasy.

You still wouldn't know how you got the mark or who was behind it. You could try to use some of the clues you gathered prior to the boom to piece together who may be involved. You know, doing inquisitorial stuff, which we don't actually do much of in game.

Which would leave you exactly where you are after the prologue, only adding a couple thousand dollars to the production costs. The exact costs don't matter though, what matters is, why spend the extra money to show you absolutely nothing? Allowing the PC to possibly glimpse the protagonist that early would blow the big reveal at Haven, and even though they can script the Inquisitor to forget it, they can't do anything to prevent a spoiler for the player. In the long run, this scenario is better painted as we get it, than by white screening at the door. Because it's real, we really don't know what happened.

[Mirth]

Actually, this is really easy: Reference Legacy, or the scene when you first go into where the Well of Sorrows is. Since it's likely the PC does drop the Orb, and Cory can transfer to tainted creatures, and all of his minions are Wardens, which are, tainted creatures, it's not hard to figure out, or at least explain, in context with what we know about Cory.

We must presume Cory transferred to a Warden in the hills?? Because all the ones in the conclave went boom.
This doesn't explain how he got the orb back, and nobody noticed him, and also begs the question "how far can he travel when killed to transfer?" Since we kill him "again" later by fadecocking him.... which again.. was cool... but still creates more questions.....
Damn you Bioware!!! What's wrong with a good old fashion beheading?? Why couldn't we trap his soul in a bottle, like a genie?

[robertthebard]

I specifically said multiple times that I voice no objection to some level of contrivance. My issue is with the way that this contrivance was handled. That is, it relies on the villain being utterly incompetent.

By your line of argument, a piece of writing is ALWAYS good, no matter how unnaturally it flows.

I told that poster to read the OP because they were echoing the same straw man that I had already refuted previously in the thread.

Which one is that, the "nobody knows the Divine is missing" one? You see, I'm not straw manning your argument, you are, by using a straw man as one of your base premises for contrivance. Nobody knows that there isn't a frantic search for the Divine going on. We don't have that information, at all, anywhere. However, you pull this in as your first solid point? When I asked what you based it on, you snipped the post to avoid addressing it, so you could come right back to "read the OP. That is all."?

[robertthebard]

We must presume Cory transferred to a Warden in the hills?? Because all the ones in the conclave went boom.
This doesn't explain how he got the orb back, and nobody noticed him, and also begs the question "how far can he travel when killed to transfer?" Since we kill him "again" later by fadecocking him.... which again.. was cool... but still creates more questions.....
Damn you Bioware!!! What's wrong with a good old fashion beheading?? Why couldn't we trap his soul in a bottle, like a genie?

We have no idea how far he can travel with that swaparoo thing, and Morrigan points this out in the War Room. How he gets out is far easier to explain, from where I'm sitting, than how he got in... Although that's pretty easy too, he just assumes the form of whatever Warden he happens to be in possession of at the time. Wouldn't it be funny, though, if one of the guys that's running back towards Haven when we first assume control of our character was Cory in disguise?

[Draining Dragon]

Which one is that, the "nobody knows the Divine is missing" one? You see, I'm not straw manning your argument, you are, by using a straw man as one of your base premises for contrivance. Nobody knows that there isn't a frantic search for the Divine going on. We don't have that information, at all, anywhere. However, you pull this in as your first solid point? When I asked what you based it on, you snipped the post to avoid addressing it, so you could come right back to "read the OP. That is all."?

Ahem. As I said in my first post, "Or were they aware she was missing and searching for her? If so, why was the Quizzy alone?"

So no, I didn't assume they knew she was missing.

A straw man is when a person intentionally misrepresents the opponent's argument, then refutes that argument while ignoring what was actually said. You made a straw man argument when you assumed that I was basing my argument off of knowledge I didn't have.

[Elsariel]

Which would leave you exactly where you are after the prologue, only adding a couple thousand dollars to the production costs. The exact costs don't matter though, what matters is, why spend the extra money to show you absolutely nothing? Allowing the PC to possibly glimpse the protagonist that early would blow the big reveal at Haven, and even though they can script the Inquisitor to forget it, they can't do anything to prevent a spoiler for the player. In the long run, this scenario is better painted as we get it, than by white screening at the door. Because it's real, we really don't know what happened.

If some clues are found in the beginning regarding who may be involved, then that feeds into the entire narrative of trying to figure out what is going on. The player would know what happened just before the door and nothing until they find they're in the fade being chased by spiders.

It just seems that for a game called Inquisition, there ought to have been a lot more inquiring and mystery solving than we got. To me, it seems like we are very reactionary as a protagonist instead of proactive. Other than having the mark, what makes your character a good inquisitor? Having that background of trying to piece together a problem might make it more believable.

But that's just my opinion. Not saying anyone has to agree.

[dreamgazer]

Strawmen are contrived.

[Mirth]

We have no idea how far he can travel with that swaparoo thing, and Morrigan points this out in the War Room. How he gets out is far easier to explain, from where I'm sitting, than how he got in... Although that's pretty easy too, he just assumes the form of whatever Warden he happens to be in possession of at the time. Wouldn't it be funny, though, if one of the guys that's running back towards Haven when we first assume control of our character was Cory in disguise?

So Alexius monkeying with time magic had nothing to do with the conclave? He's not able to go back in time to stop our interference, but he's able to go back and get the mages conscripted before we meet Fiona??
This part throws me off too.

That's why I went Templars on my current run. Less suspension of disbelief.

[Hazegurl]

At least they have good company:

 

Eddard Stark is stupid

Rob Stark is stupid

Galadriel/Elrond/Gandalf are stupid

Sauron is beyond stupid

The Emperor is stupid

The Old Republic is super-stupid

The old Jedi are stupid

Every Bond Villain is stupid

...

...

...

 

How boring stories would be if everyone knew what he's doing and what it would lead to^^

That is different from being stupid for contrived plot reasons. Lacking in knowledge or not being able to foretell the future does not make a character stupid. And a character being stupid does not mean the plot relies on it.

 

ex:

 

Gandalf turning to another Wizard for aid isn't a dumb move simply because Sauramon is an evil sneak. If Gandalf knew he was an evil sneak but went in totally unprepared for betrayal then yeah Gandalf would be stupid and the plot would be relying on Gandalf's stupidity to progress the story forward. 

 

Meanwhile...

 

Cory decides to blow up a public conclave everyone knew about and kill a public figure with nothing but a bunch of possessed GW mages. Just so he can enter the fade...when this could have been done elsewhere with far more success.

 

No one is guarding the Divine after a Chantry Mother was blown up because....

 

Templars sell themselves and their comrades to demons so they can all mutate into grotesque monsters for....fighting...magic???

 

Mages rebel with zero support, When they get support they p*ss on it in favor of some random Vint Magister....because....??? Oh yeah and sells Mages into slavery for....?

 

GWs, fearful of false Calling, don't report to or head to Weisshaupt. Just follow random Vint guy.

[robertthebard]

So Alexius monkeying with time magic had nothing to do with the conclave? He's not able to go back in time to stop our interference, but he's able to go back and get the mages conscripted before we meet Fiona??
This part throws me off too.

That's why I went Templars on my current run. Less suspension of disbelief.

The breach is caused by the explosion. He can't affect anything pre-breach since, according to what we're given, the breach is what makes it possible. Time travel is hokey anyway, but, our meeting with Fiona takes place after the breach, as does Alexius going to Redcliffe. This is the part of time travel that can give one a headache, however. It's interesting to note, however, that even if you go with the Templars, the time travel thing still happens.

So, DD, if you don't have a solid position, what was the point of the thread? If you're going to shoot down your arguments as soon as you make them, why make them?

[LaughingBanana]

The plot also sucks because nothing really bad happened to the inquisitor. In most good plot games, something to their family or close person happens which is a driving force for revenge, etc. 

 

The inquisitor is by himself, no old friends or family, he gets the fade touch, for most of game it's like Corypheus has his own plans and is saying, "Outta the way, peck!". 

 

Bioware/EA got real cheap, probably said they don't need to hire an author or good story/plot writer.  

 

Actually the Dalish elf can get his/her entire clan wiped off from the face of the planet.

 

Not that anyone in the game actually gives a **** about that when it happens. Not even the Inquisitor him/herself.

 

WTF Bioware?

[MajorStupidity]

Honestly I am willing to let some of what you brought up go for the sake of the story. My biggest problem with the plot of DA:I is that it lacked any real sense of urgency. You are allowed to do f*** all in the wilderness while the world is supposed to be falling apart. Also you are constantly winning I never felt Cory was a real threat anytime after his attack on Haven because we were constantly foiling everyone of his plans without too much trouble. It doesn't help that most of the villains are written like generic Saturday morning cartoon villains who are a breath away from twirling their mustaches.

 

I still enjoy DA:I, but I agree it does have one of the weaker stories I have seen from Bioware. Most of what saves it is that your companions/advisors are actually pretty well fleshed out and engaging.

[Alexius]

I admit, I did wonder some of those things as the scene played out. Especially when I played as something other than human-anything.

 

If the elven artifact scene was meant to be somewhat climatic to the story, I don't really think it had that much, say, momentum. At least not the one that goes together with the Big Reveal.

 

So far, the only reason that explains part of it all is that it's a memory, and as such it can be highly subjective. To me, it's the weakest point in the plot.

 

I understand that Dragon Age is the story of Thedas, so it spans out several games, but I wish the story arc in this game had the same strength the characters' arc had.

[Realmzmaster]

Honestly I am willing to let some of what you brought up go for the sake of the story. My biggest problem with the plot of DA:I is that it lacked any real sense of urgency. You are allowed to do f*** all in the wilderness while the world is supposed to be falling apart. Also you are constantly winning I never felt Cory was a real threat anytime after his attack on Haven because we were constantly foiling everyone of his plans without too much trouble. It doesn't help that most of the villains are written like generic Saturday morning cartoon villains who are a breath away from twirling their mustaches.

 

I still enjoy DA:I, but I agree it does have one of the weaker stories I have seen from Bioware. Most of what saves it is that your companions/advisors are actually pretty well fleshed out and engaging.

 

None of the Bioware DA games have a sense of urgency. You could do what ever you wanted in DAO just like in DAI.  How many gamers did not do the chantry boards quests, Blackstone Irregulars, Crime Wave, Gaxkang, mage collective,  or quests for Interested parties.

 

The only DA game that had some sense of urgency was DA2 and that was during the first act, but even that was illusionary. Beside there was a way to move forward even if Hawke did not collect the 50 sovereigns. 

[Helmetto]

My real problem is the Time Travel plot, honestly. Sure, it COULD be made out to be fade-nonsense, but its heavily implied that it's not. 

 

Like, does nobody understand how seriously powerful Time Travel is? Like sure, it couldn't prevent the explosion at the conclave. But We could've effectively curbstomped Cory, prevented Haven from being destroyed, and shittons of things if we had a "Force Dorian to accept that tearing Thedas a new time ******* is better than letting thousands of good people die and stopping the NIGH IMMORTAL BIG BAD who wants to destroy the world."

 

We could've seriously united the Templars/Mages and ended the war properly.

 

We also could've entered the Fade itself, which is another huge thing entirely. And appearently vaporize enemies with a single blow.

 

It's like DAI introduces all these powerful things, but instead of letting us use them, they just sweep them under the rug and pretend they're there only when it's convenient, making everybody seem kind of incompetent in the process.

[fhs33721]

My real problem is the Time Travel plot, honestly. Sure, it COULD be made out to be fade-nonsense, but its heavily implied that it's not. 

 

Like, does nobody understand how seriously powerful Time Travel is? Like sure, it couldn't prevent the explosion at the conclave. But We could've effectively curbstomped Cory, prevented Haven from being destroyed, and shittons of things if we had a "Force Dorian to accept that tearing Thedas a new time ******* is better than letting thousands of good people die and stopping the NIGH IMMORTAL BIG BAD who wants to destroy the world."

You can't use time travel any longer after Haven. It only works as long as the breach is open.

[fhs33721]

The explosion according to solas was the result of the build up of energy in the orb over countless millennia since it was last used and I doubt anyone other than Solas, Flemeth/mythral or the ancient elves dreamers could have unlocked the orb safely without the boom.

That it  does not change the fact that it was the Inquisitor that ended up causing the explosion (Also I'm nor sure abou it being inevitabel. Corypheus seemed to have it quite good uner control until the Inquisitor showed up.). Granted the alternative would have been far worse but the Inquisitor lucked out and not only got away with causing the explosion but even gets hailed as a divine figure for it.

[Helmetto]

You can't use time travel any longer after Haven. It only works as long as the breach is open.

"Hey, Dorian, now that we solved this **** with Alexius, lets uh, time travel around before we return home."

[MikeJW]

"This plot is ridiculously contrived" is true about most fiction, including books and movies that are master pieces.