129 réponses à ce sujet

[Abyss108]

Open the game with exposition? Bad idea.

 

I don't want to spend an hour walking around a temple talking to people who are about to be exploded. Get that part over with as quickly as possible, so I can interact with some people I actually care about. 

[Elsariel]

I don't think a conclave intro is needed or even good. The text that explain your origin is enough to me. Besides, it would be pointless to introduce four or five inconsequential infodump characters only to blow them up a few minutes later.

I don't know, was it pointless to get to know the Couslands before the slaughter? I think getting to know them made you feel something once they died. It drew you in. Similarly with the Hawkes and losing either Bethany or Carver.

I would have loved a Conclave opening.

[yankblan]

Open the game with exposition? Bad idea.

 

I don't want to spend an hour walking around a temple talking to people who are about to be exploded. Get that part over with as quickly as possible, so I can interact with some people I actually care about. 

 

The other problem I have with that, is that takes away the mystery around the role you played; we basically know we didn't do it, but the circumstances remain vague.  Not every game has to start with "Once upon a time..."

[VanguardCharge]

The guy lost credibility with the littering post; can't take anything else he says seriously.

 

Sure, everybody's entitled to an opinion, but every thread he starts is trying to get reactions; to me that's trolling, not critiquing.

 

So, you join DA:I in the 3rd iteration and you feel lost? Boohoo, just go through the Keep, and Varric will help you out.  Read the codex.  Why should the game starts with an hour of backstory?

 

They decided to go into a fast start, and to then flashback to the origin of the plot; not original at all, I agree, but just a scenarist's choice.

 

Sure there's things I like less and other I like more, but I've sunked 130 hours in it; if I didn't like it I would have given up.  Reminds me when I bought Madden 10; I tried really hard to like it, went to forums, tried to give it another chance but I just didn't get into it.  So I sold it on eBay; I didn't go back on the forums to harp on it after I was done with it.

 

...why should I go to an external website to get info on the lore? 

 

Background info is not the only point of a Conclave mission. Getting acquainted with the divine and the current leaders/representatives of different factions is very important. You actually give a **** when they all explode. Plus, you would get a sense of your PC's backstory.

[ShadowLordXII]

Open the game with exposition? Bad idea.

 

I don't want to spend an hour walking around a temple talking to people who are about to be exploded. Get that part over with as quickly as possible, so I can interact with some people I actually care about. 

 

Then make it interesting with a mechanic similar to the Orlesian Ball or dialogue heavy with lots of points for the player to chime in. I don't know.

 

One issue that comes with the lack of a intro/prologue on the conclave itself is that the player has no room to feel any empathy for Grand Cleric Justinia. Keep in mind that the player only met this woman once before while controlling Leliana, so our inquisitor doesn't know her. Therefore, when everyone starts talking about Justinia and how much they miss her, there is a disconnect because PC's never knew Justinia on a level that should matter to them.

 

A conclave intro would allow us to actually talk to Justinia and get to know her a little bit. Therefore, we actually care on some level when she dies and understand why everyone misses her.

[Xx Serissia xX]

I feel that had we been able to play through some of the Conclave it would've made our Inquisitor feel more connected to that part of the story.  For instance, meeting the Divine would've made it easier to care about her as a person.  It would've let the player possibly feel moved by her death as well.  Instead you really only see her death's impact on Leliana and to a lesser extent Cassandra.  Additionally had there been temporary characters say from the Inquisitor's origin (e.g. mages from the Oswick Circle, mercenaries from your band, etc.) it would've also made the destruction of the conclave have more personal impact.  

[Vox Draco]

Open the game with exposition? Bad idea.

 

*crawltext*

 

A long time ago, on a world far, far away....

It is a period of civil war. The mages, formerly

locked away in the circles and guarded by the

fiercesome Templars, have rebelled and won

their first victories against their oprressors.

 

During the battle, rebel mages managed
to steal secret plans to the chantries
ultimate weapon, the DEATH STAR, an
armored space station with enough
power to destroy an entire planet.

Pursued by the Empire's sinister agents,
Cassandra Penthagast races home aboard her
starship, custodian of the stolen plans
that can save her people and restore
freedom to the galaxy....

 

 

No...damn, I mixed it up somewhere

[mkonrad6288]

This isn't even feedback.  This is an opinion on game design.  

 

It's pointless.  If, due to alignment of of the moons, you ever got a developer or writer to respond to this, and you won't, all they are going to do is say "we considered that, but we thought this was the best way to get into the action quickly with an important character."  

 

What's the point of a suggestion when it's patently obvious this was an intentional design choice, carried out and executed properly?

[VanguardCharge]

This isn't even feedback.  This is an opinion on game design.  

 

It's pointless.  If, due to alignment of of the moons, you ever got a developer or writer to respond to this, and you won't, all they are going to do is say "we considered that, but we thought this was the best way to get into the action quickly with an important character."  

 

What's the point of a suggestion when it's patently obvious this was an intentional design choice, carried out and executed properly?

 

By this logic, all criticism of any work already created is pointless because the designer is not going to change it. This is a forum, a place for people to voice their opinion. I have an opinion that the design choice of DA:I intro was poor, so I wrote about it. No, I don;t expect it to be changed. I wanted to see how others feel about it, and if others feel that the Conclave would've been a better place for an intro. 

[Abyss108]

Then make it interesting with a mechanic similar to the Orlesian Ball or dialogue heavy with lots of points for the player to chime in. I don't know.

 

One issue that comes with the lack of a intro/prologue on the conclave itself is that the player has no room to feel any empathy for Grand Cleric Justinia. Keep in mind that the player only met this woman once before while controlling Leliana, so our inquisitor doesn't know her. Therefore, when everyone starts talking about Justinia and how much they miss her, there is a disconnect because PC's never knew Justinia on a level that should matter to them.

 

A conclave intro would allow us to actually talk to Justinia and get to know her a little bit. Therefore, we actually care on some level when she dies and understand why everyone misses her.

 

 

But we're not supposed to care about Justinia personally... Her death is important because of the effect it has on the world, not on you as a person. I was sent to spy on the conclave at the start of the game, they certainly weren't people my character would ever care about personally.

 

The game never acted like I should care about her either. Leilianna/Cassandra did, but nothing ever implied I should. There was no disconnect...

 

I just don't see what this would add. Most players aren't going to care about the religious leader of a religion they don't follow. Alternatively, the current intro puts your own life in danger, which is something the player will care a lot more about. 

[stonerbishop]

I think it was a little rushed/forced but I understand why. I think more information from the fade memories would have been nice. Make it more cutscenes so people can skip if they want

[Emerald Rift]

To me: The ending sucked worse then the beginning. <shrugs>

 

 

Both were quite weak, it's a shame that the ending fell flat on it's arse. (Apart from the post-credit scene)

[Joseph Warrick]

I don't know, was it pointless to get to know the Couslands before the slaughter? I think getting to know them made you feel something once they died. It drew you in. Similarly with the Hawkes and losing either Bethany or Carver.

I would have loved a Conclave opening.

 

That would have worked possibly, but that means having a meaningful character there. I was thinking people like Trask Ulgo, Corporal Jenkins, or sister Lilith. Still to me the initial text is fine and no more exposition is needed. You learn as you go through dialogue with the main characters. I think both approaches work.

[BubbleDncr]

It's a general trend in games now to want to start games in the middle of the action - to hook the player as quickly as possible. It saddens me, because I really liked slow openings where you got to get used to the world before the **** hit the fan. 

 

That said, my only issue with the intro was their need to shove the character creator into the story. I mean, Fade lighting is pretty much the worst lighting in the game, so yea, let's create our characters in that!

[Abyss108]

The ending of the game was weak, and very very sudden, but I think the intro is great.

 

-igives you a reason to care, as you're in great danger and everyone mistrusts you

-introduces a mystery with the mark

-quickly gives you 3 characters to care about and interact with in interesting ways (Cassandra antagonizes you, Varric seems to be on your side. Not sure how Solas acts if you're not an elf, but if you are he insults the Dalish right off, so lots of fun interaction with everyone)

-visually interesting, with a massive breach in the sky, and the ruined temple

 

Much better than the usual Bioware intro, which is walking down a few corridors and talking to random people who I will soon never see again.

[Violetbliss]

The only thing that sucks for me with it is the endless replays while I finetune my look, due to bad lighting in initial areas/CC. D:

[OriginalTibs]

The Conclave was one of the most important events in the Dragon Age series. According to the lore, every almost every important faction had some sort of representation there. You would think that an RPG would begin there, in a place where a new player can get so much needed exposition, a place where we can get acquainted with our character and a place where we'd get introduced to the villain. 

 

But no. The story begins after one of the most important events in the game occurs. 

 

As a result, a player who is new to the series gets overwhelmed with Cassandra's initial exposition overload. I witnessed this as my friend (who never played DA games before) played DA:I for an hour today. 

 

The Conclave would've been such a great place for our character to mingle with different factions of Thedas. We would get acquainted with the Divine, leaders of the mages, templars etc and would actually care when we find out that they all perished.

 

With the Conclave as the intro, we would also get introduced to our PC better, mayhaps with temporary companions from your "origin", making our PC less of a brick.

 

TLDR: A conclave intro would do exactly what Ostagar/Eden Prime did. Show the player what he's up against and provide balanced exposition to the story. 

You don't have much of a grasp on plot development in fiction.

[VanguardCharge]

You don't have much of a grasp on plot development in fiction.

 

Says the person who judges fiction based on how well he/she can conjure events based on the writer's plot. Write your share of fan fiction, don't you? 

[yankblan]

...why should I go to an external website to get info on the lore? 

 

Background info is not the only point of a Conclave mission. Getting acquainted with the divine and the current leaders/representatives of different factions is very important. You actually give a **** when they all explode. Plus, you would get a sense of your PC's backstory.

 

You don't need to, read the codex that are in-game...  The point is not giving a **** about the persons who die, you're supposed to be concerned about the situation (war, who did it?); the individuals don't matter; let Leliana and Cassandra morn for her.  As far as the backstory, what matters is that you are the only one alive, not who you are.  You are just the idiot who stumbled upon the ritual;  what you did before means nothing to nobody in the story.

[Mann42]

In medias res

 

You want to grab the reader/viewer/player's attention immediately by dropping them into the middle of the story, instead of forcing them to wade through a potentially slow build up and exposition.

 

I don't think the beginning would have been better if we were forced to run around the conclave talking with people just to get a recap on what we already know. That would have slowed the game down immensely, and it would have felt more like a chore than immersion. The events at the Conclave are hardly important to the overall story, would have been an exposition nightmare, and the only parts that were important are recapped later in a flashback via the fade.

[Swaggerjking]

I feel that had we been able to play through some of the Conclave it would've made our Inquisitor feel more connected to that part of the story.  For instance, meeting the Divine would've made it easier to care about her as a person.  It would've let the player possibly feel moved by her death as well.  Instead you really only see her death's impact on Leliana and to a lesser extent Cassandra.  Additionally had there been temporary characters say from the Inquisitor's origin (e.g. mages from the Oswick Circle, mercenaries from your band, etc.) it would've also made the destruction of the conclave have more personal impact.  

I completely agree I am not one who go head over heel for immersion but If you play a human, dwarf or qunari that believes in the maker it blows the immerision to shred especially if your new to the series that you don't really feeling bad for the divine's death other than for one small spot 2 seconds just like the mess up in the temple in the mythal where and elf has no idea who Mythal is and earlier in the game has no problem when another dailish said Praise mythal to you and you don't say "oh fellow dalish memebers who is this mythal you speak of"

 

pardon for some small spelling mistakes

[OriginalTibs]

I can just imagine the complaints that would attend VanguardCharge's color-coded online manual disguised as the gathering at the enclave at every replay, every new character, over and over and over in the place of the already rather extensive, fairly immersive opening sequence we have.

 

First play through it was perfect. It still isn't bad aftr all my character builds. I figure Vanguard is either one of those wanna-be amateur game designers or a frustrated director who cannot get a contract so he has to provide his brilliant expositions on exactly how the OCD micromanager would have done the whole thing himself.

 

The introduction provides all that we need to know to get started, sets the theme nicely, poses questions for the player to wonder about, and sets the game's ambience all in a neat and dynamic scene that compels us into the well-written story instead of providing driving lessons, a comprehensive flight simulator manual, and the Encyclopaedia Brittanica on DVD (as seen on TV!).

[yankblan]

I can just imagine the complaints that would attend VanguardCharge's color-coded online manual disguised as the gathering at the enclave at every replay, every new character, over and over and over in the place of the already rather extensive, fairly immersive opening sequence we have.

 

First play through it was perfect. It still isn't bad aftr all my character builds. I figure Vanguard is either one of those wanna-be amateur game designers or a frustrated director who cannot get a contract so he has to provide his brilliant expositions on exactly how the OCD micromanager would have done the whole thing himself.

 

The introduction provides all that we need to know to get started, sets the theme nicely, poses questions for the player to wonder about, and sets the game's ambience all in a neat and dynamic scene that compels us into the well-written story instead of providing driving lessons, a comprehensive flight simulator manual, and the Encyclopaedia Brittanica on DVD (as seen on TV!).

 

You illustrated what I thought pretty perfectly; it's like when you meet one of those people that tells you a story about a car accident and they then divolve into the backstory of the car purchase, what happened 3 years ago to the person they were in the car with, how they remembered having their wife delivering the baby in the same hospital they were transported to, and all you want to know is what happened on the scene.

 

In my work I have to give training to employees on the systems I install for them, and I suffer sometime with over indulging.  The more a game like this try to deliver, the more lose threads you can pull at...

[Andrew Lucas]

You guys are great.

[VanguardCharge]

In medias res

 

You want to grab the reader/viewer/player's attention immediately by dropping them into the middle of the story, instead of forcing them to wade through a potentially slow build up and exposition.

 

I don't think the beginning would have been better if we were forced to run around the conclave talking with people just to get a recap on what we already know. That would have slowed the game down immensely, and it would have felt more like a chore than immersion. The events at the Conclave are hardly important to the overall story, would have been an exposition nightmare, and the only parts that were important are recapped later in a flashback via the fade.

 

In media res is a very good technique. Except the Conclave is arguably one of the most, if not the most important events in Inquisition. Our PC's story begins AFTER the Conclave, not during (unless you want to count the five seconds you are chased by fade spiders). In media res would apply if we were dropped into the story in the middle of the Conclave. Otherwise, we get a ton of plot holes like "why wasn't anyone guarding the Divine?" or "Why didn't Cory lock the doors?". 

 

I can just imagine the complaints that would attend VanguardCharge's color-coded online manual disguised as the gathering at the enclave at every replay, every new character, over and over and over in the place of the already rather extensive, fairly immersive opening sequence we have.

 

First play through it was perfect. It still isn't bad aftr all my character builds. I figure Vanguard is either one of those wanna-be amateur game designers or a frustrated director who cannot get a contract so he has to provide his brilliant expositions on exactly how the OCD micromanager would have done the whole thing himself.

 

The introduction provides all that we need to know to get started, sets the theme nicely, poses questions for the player to wonder about, and sets the game's ambience all in a neat and dynamic scene that compels us into the well-written story instead of providing driving lessons, a comprehensive flight simulator manual, and the Encyclopaedia Brittanica on DVD (as seen on TV!).

 

Extensive, immersive opening sequence? lol. 

 

"You killed everyone at this event where all the factions were, including our holy figure! But you have this weird thing that makes the bad things stop coming from the holes in the sky!"

 

What are these Templars/Mages? Why should I care about the Divine? 

 

I'm going to assume you're a wannabe PR person for BioWare.