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[Master Warder Z_]

I think you're overestimating how much influence the Chantry had with the mages and templars by that point.

We aren't discussing the war narrative presented by it self?

Remove Cory from the equation and I think peace is plausible.

[Esteed789]

We aren't discussing the war narrative presented by it self?

Remove Cory from the equation and I think peace is plausible.

 

I don't think so.  Not without removing the radical elements from both sides.  Mind you, I'm all for somebody doing just that, but I just don't think peace is plausible without that.

[Br3admax]

Leliana would have been there. Peace probably would have happened. Theodosians can't resist that smile. 

[Dgyre]

this is very difficult to say without knowing the details of the state of the war at that point...if both sides were losing the will to fight, its possible..

 

we don't know how hardline the templars would be without demonic possession at the top levels

 

with the mages..they seem very fragmented, how do you know enough of them would honor agreement? how much loyalty does fiona actually command?

 

with the right elements, sure I see peace happening, but there is a LOT in the way, and it would take impartial oversight by a third party..and while Justinia might have their respect....she can't do it alone...so who? the chantry? they already didn't reign in the templars before like Cass says about Kirkwall...

 

Wardens?  Some nation? 

 

If peace was possible, who maintains it?  even if you establish it...I think it breaks down decades later, if not sooner

[LOLandStuff]

Maybe instead of an explosion it would've been a bloodbath.

[dgcatanisiri]

I think the chances of the Conclave putting a stop to the war would be slim at best. But at the same time, I think Justinia knew that and was hoping more for it to be the start to a greater peace, that it would be the first of many. She attended in person, which indicates that she WANTED this peace to work. She probably didn't expect Fiona and Lucius to come in person, though, since that'd spark worse trouble. But at the least, if something could be achieved, their subordinates could pass on that success to them, and maybe they'd come to the NEXT Conclave.

 

I just see the Conclave to have been the first of various meetings of its type, at least in Justinia's mind. It just turned out to be the only one, due to Corypheus.

[Dean_the_Young]

My view is that negotiations had a better chance to succeed than most people realized. Why?

 

The war was almost over already, and Ferelden had already intervened and gained influence over the mages by the time of the Conclave.

 

In the field, it's pretty clear that the Templars beat the mages handily. After just a few years of open revolt in nearly all the Circles, the rebel mages were only still a force on the ground in the Hinterlands. Everywhere else, mages were either back in their Circles (the neutral/loyalist groups), or had already been beaten by the Templars. By comparison, Templars had access to keeps and strongholds across Southern Thedas, and still had a meaningful stockpile of lyrium supplies as well.

 

By the time of the Conclave, there were only two rebel mage groups left. Power-mad apostates fighting in the Hinterlands, and the Rebel Circle mages in Redcliffe. Neither group had free movement or controlled their own security: the apostates were being checked by a minor Renegade faction of Templars, and the Circle mages were relying on Ferelden protection because they had been losing everywhere else. In the absence of an outside intervention, Fiona indicates to us that the Mages thought they would lose.

 

But here's the thing- outside intervention was increasingly likely, because after dealing with apostates outside Redcliffe the last rebel mages would be, well, those in Redcliffe. If the Templars attacked Redcliffe, if they even could, they would be starting a fight with the crown of Ferelden. And while the Templars are significant, they aren't a national force in their own right.

 

But that's if they attacked. On the other hand, they could have blockaded Redcliffe- perhaps not total, but enough that mages aren't fleeing freely, but the Crown doesn't have reason to intervene directly. And there are real reasons why the Ferelden throne doesn't want to intervene directly without cause- if they did want to, they already would have. Instead, things like 'openly siding with the mage rebellion' could in turn have forced the Chantry against them, and caused all sorts of other issues as well.

 

And, here's a crazy idea, the idea of mages living in Redcliffe but not leaving turns from a fact of the ground to a compromise. Bigger Circle, civilian interaction, Templar anti-smuggling borders with crown policing inside. Not ideal for anyone- but far better for everyone than a Templar attack (or a Ferelden crackdown on mage refugees who refuse to go along with a deal).

 

 

So pretty soon the Templars were going to win about as much as they could on the field, but the last mage rebels would be holed up in Redcliffe. Stalemate pursues- and the longer it lasts, the less likely it is to escalate. At which point the Crown of Ferelden and the Chantry, being the big responsible parties with more resources together, come to an arrangement that the mages (dependent on Ferelden for security) and Templars (who can not beat Ferelden) can not refuse- or, if they do so, stand to forfeit any and all gains they could hope for. The Templars could massacre every mage in Redcliffe, but it wouldn't let them rebuild the Circles as they see fit- in fact, it would probably see their destruction for a mage phyrric victory.

 

 

 

So I think the Conclave would have had one of four scenarios, all of which end to the near-term (within a year) resolution of the conflict.

 

1) Mages and Templars realize what the facts on the ground are about to be, and successfully negotiate a compromise. Conclave successful.

 

2) Mages and Templars don't recognize the reality approaching them until they awkwardly stare at each other over the walls of Redcliffe, wondering what comes next. After awkward fumbling but no escalation, stalemate gives way to compromise negotiations.

 

3) Templars are deemed the more unreasonable party and provoke Ferelden into intervening against them. Like, say, by attacking Redcliffe. The Chantry denounces the Templars as Ferelden destroys them (Chantry denouncement or not) until the Templars can not militarily resist. Mages, live or die, rebuild in new Circle-esque system with reduced Templar presence. (Since the Templars are, you know, dead.)

 

4) Mages are deemed the more unreasonable party and provoke Ferelden into withdrawing its protection. Mages are thrust out of Redcliffe into waiting Templar forces, cleared out of Redcliffe by force, or both. Mages, live or die, are discredited politically and forced to rebuild in new Circle-esque system in which the Templars are the dominant party.

 

 

 

I doubt the Templars would've gone for it as at this time Lucius was probably corrupted by Corypheus and joined with him and started along the path to turning the Templars into Red Templars. For logistic reasons mainly, as an entire Order can't be corrupted in the span of just a few weeks. Moreover, Templars started taking red lyrium a while back (if Hawke was Viscount) and Denam knew about it all -- we'll ignore the fact that I actually don't think an entire side of the conflict could be wiped away into Corypheus' army in a continent-spanning war.

 

Fiona might've been obstinate but even she knew war couldn't last forever. I think she'd be stubborn in her terms but would continue to listen for a while.

 

The Lucius conspiracy was already in motion, but Lucius himself wasn't in charge of the Templars at that point. What's important to remember about the Conclave explosion is that it wiped out the main leadership of all the parties, not just the Chantry. The Knight Commanders (and other Seekers) who presumably weren't in Lucius's conspiracy were there to negotiate terms- Lucius the spoiler was not. The same thing was happening with the mages: firebrand and nominal leader Fiona was left behind and unconsulted.

 

Basically, the reasonable people who would have been in charge were not the spoilers with the greatest interest in ruining negotiations. Lucius wouldn't have been able to commandeer all the Templars if he wasn't able to step into the void, any more than Fiona would have been able to sell the mages into slavery.

 

 

[Barquiel]

By the time of the Conclave, there were only two rebel mage groups left. Power-mad apostates fighting in the Hinterlands, and the Rebel Circle mages in Redcliffe. Neither group had free movement or controlled their own security: the apostates were being checked by a minor Renegade faction of Templars, and the Circle mages were relying on Ferelden protection because they had been losing everywhere else. In the absence of an outside intervention, Fiona indicates to us that the Mages thought they would lose.

There were other cells of rebel mages all across southern Thedas. There is a war table mission where you can try to contact them.

[Dean_the_Young]

There were other cells of rebel mages all across southern Thedas. There is a war table mission where you can try to contact them.

 

Key word- 'cells.' They were hiding, not fighting, to stay alive.

 

As far as rebellions go, that's the point where you're either working to start or you've already lost.

[Master Warder Z_]

I agree with Dean as usual.

[Dean_the_Young]

I agree with Dean as usual.

 

I am very agreeable when I'm not being an uncaring internet *******.

[Master Warder Z_]

I am very agreeable when I'm not being an uncaring internet *******.

Aren't we all?

Our banner may have been lowered but we are still comrades.

[Dean_the_Young]

Aren't we all?

Our banner may have been lowered but we are still comrades.

 

Down boy. You have to earn my power of friendship first.

[Cypher0020]

Anyone know how long the Conclave was going on before it all went kaboooooooooom?

 

I mean.... had to be big enough for mercs, lyrium suppliers, delegates from various factions to set up shop

 

From the ruins we see tents, people, carts of weapons.....

[Master Warder Z_]

Down boy. You have to earn my power of friendship first.

x.x why don't you love me?!

We fought the good fight against the pro mages, the pro dalish, the pro lunacy and more!

[The Ascendant]

Considering that the Mages made a deal with Tevinter shows that they weren't in a strong position whereas the Templars were expected to return in Val Royeaux, until Lambert punched the priest, so I imagine the Templars have better publicity and would have a better bargaining position, considering that many noble sons and daughters serve in the Order. Mages are disinherited and often forgotten by their families, while Templar recruits are seen as signs of honor. I imagine that the negotiations would have favored the Templars than the mages. Remember Leliana said the Divine wanted to treat the Mages fairly, but what about the Templars? Can't really ignore them.

[Dean_the_Young]

x.x why don't you love me?!

We fought the good fight against the pro mages, the pro dalish, the pro lunacy and more!

 

I fought the good fight for my own amusement.

 

You just kind of tagged along at my heels agreeing with me from time to time.

 

[/youknowyoulikethisabuse]

[Master Warder Z_]

I fought the good fight for my own amusement.

You just kind of tagged along at my heels agreeing with me from time to time.

[/youknowyoulikethisabuse]

...So be it comrade.

We both know were we come from.

Perhaps that's enough.

Whatever the motivation.

[The Ascendant]

You always know where you stand with an enemy.

[Master Warder Z_]

You always know where you stand with an enemy.

Indeed.

[Dean_the_Young]

Considering that the Mages made a deal with Tevinter shows that they weren't in a strong position whereas the Templars were expected to return in Val Royeaux, until Lambert punched the priest, so I imagine the Templars have better publicity and would have a better bargaining position, considering that many noble sons and daughters serve in the Order. Mages are disinherited and often forgotten by their families, while Templar recruits are seen as signs of honor. I imagine that the negotiations would have favored the Templars than the mages. Remember Leliana said the Divine wanted to treat the Mages fairly, but what about the Templars? Can't really ignore them.

 

While the exact positions post-Conclave explosion can't be projected backwards, the point of PR is important. Mages... aren't popular anywhere in Southern Thedas we go, with the solitary exception of Redcliffe (which both faced a Templar threat and was hosting mages). They aren't an institution with trust, admiration, or respect amongst the commoners. When the Mages join the Inquisition, it's the Inquisition's reputation rubbing off on them, not the other way around.

 

The Templars have a better standing. If you aren't caught up in the fighting, at which point you'd probably hate both sides, most people in Thedas remember and think of Templars as those people who protect the Chantry (good), people in general (good), and keep those dangerous-scary mages in place (best). If you ally with them, people like the Inquisition better by association. More nobles have third sons or daughters in the Templars than can be expected to have children in the Circle. Even the Powers That Be trying to reign in the Templars don't want to destroy them- Justinia's chantry wants reforms, but no one in-universe is suggesting disbanding or destroying them. Well, no one but those mad apostates burning people alive in the Hinterlands. But they're the sort of people who make Templars popular.

 

The Red Templar sillyness and reputation destruction aside, around the Enclave the Templars are still seen as a legitimate and popular force in their own right. It wouldn't be right to say that they have the stronger bargaining position (the mages do in many respects, thanks to Ferelden support), but what they do have is considerable.

[Dean_the_Young]

You always know where you stand with an enemy.

 

Down range?