256 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

Mmmm...

Lots of possibilities without even thinking much, most implemented somewhere already (some work only for turn based though): ZOC (zone of control), cover system, using cc as means of keeping enemies away (like simple slowdown), attacks of opportunity for running away from melees, some "tie up in melee" mechanic that makes harder to disengage when in melee combat,

Also: actually rethinking combat roles and how they work?

Attacks of opportunity don't really work. You're reduced to tracking them down, or you have to have reallt squishy enemies (or warriors with huge burst damage). I guess the best solution is huge attack of opportunity damage but that just reduces the game to a pathfinding nightmare as you try to keep your warriors in melee range.

Cover might work except for the fact that it's really at ods with the medieval setting.

Tieing up sounds really cool until you realise that you're always outnumbered in RPGs and tangling should lead to easy kills for the enemy were it not for RPG mechanics.

[Realmzmaster]

Mmmm...

 

Lots of possibilities without even thinking much, most implemented somewhere already (some work only for turn based though): ZOC (zone of control), cover system, using cc as means of keeping enemies away (like simple slowdown), attacks of opportunity for running away from melees, some "tie up in melee" mechanic that makes harder to disengage when in melee combat,

 

Also: actually rethinking combat roles and how they work?

 

The point is that Bioware has never made a turn based game. Most of the turn based games I have played required a way to calculate initiative. Zone of control work well in turn based wargames and some strategy, but not well in realtime.

[MadDemiurg]

Attacks of opportunity don't really work. You're reduced to tracking them down, or you have to have reallt squishy enemies (or warriors with huge burst damage). I guess the best solution is huge attack of opportunity damage but that just reduces the game to a pathfinding nightmare as you try to keep your warriors in melee range.

Cover might work except for the fact that it's really at ods with the medieval setting.

Tieing up sounds really cool until you realise that you're always outnumbered in RPGs and tangling should lead to easy kills for the enemy were it not for RPG mechanics.

I don't find that you're outnumbered in DA:I all that much, You're mostly fighting small groups, so tying up could actually work. As for situations where you're vastly outnumbered you objectively should be screwed unless you find a chokepoint. Plus, if you're dealing with a huge group of weak enemies your artillery should be able to deal with them, tying up should be used for key enemies that are not easily dispatched.

 

AOOs can work without huge damage if they stagger.

 

 

The point is that Bioware has never made a turn based game. Most of the turn based games I have played required a way to calculate initiative. Zone of control work well in turn based wargames and some strategy, but not well in realtime.

 

ZoC is indeed exclusive to turn based games, and as I've noted some of the listed mechanics work for turn based games only, Still there are plenty of mechanics that can work for realtime as well.

[tmp7704]

Mmmm...
 
Lots of possibilities without even thinking much, most implemented somewhere already (some work only for turn based though): ZOC (zone of control), cover system, using cc as means of keeping enemies away (like simple slowdown), attacks of opportunity for running away from melees, some "tie up in melee" mechanic that makes harder to disengage when in melee combat,

This all largely relies on your heavy fighters actually being let to do as they please, vs just getting slept or otherwise CC'ed and then ignored while your opponents beeline for the squishies that are getting peppered with arrows.

[MadDemiurg]

This all largely relies on your heavy fighters actually being let to do as they please, vs just getting slept or otherwise CC'ed and then ignored while your opponents beeline for the squishies that are getting peppered with arrows.

Well, that's what you have abilities that counter CC for, like antimagic shields, dispels, dodges/rolls etc. And you should try to CC/focus down enemies that can lock you down first. This is what tactical gameplay is usually about

[tmp7704]

Well, that's what you have abilities that counter CC for, like antimagic shields, dispels, dodges/rolls etc. And you should try to CC/focus down enemies that can lock you down first. This is what tactical gameplay is usually about

Well, but this is precisely what the problem here is, isn't it? If we conclude that the tactical/sensible thing is to focus down the CC-capable squishies, not only it doesn't take any heat off them, but if anything it's the opposite, it renders them even more of priority target.

[MadDemiurg]

Well, but this is precisely what the problem here is, isn't it? If we conclude that the tactical/sensible thing is to focus down the CC-capable squishies, not only it doesn't take any heat off them, but if anything it's the opposite, it renders them even more of priority target.

And there's nothing wrong with them being a priority target if the combat system has means of making them hard to reach. Like that warrior with huge ass sword that gets 3 AOOs if you run past him and slices you into thin pieces. Now you need to come up with a plan how to flank them. Squishies with dangerous abilities are always a priority in tactical games all other things equal, but there are often situations where it's just not feasible to attack them because of positioning and/or other circumstances, And that doesn't invalidate the tanks as they would be incapable of making "in your face" moves if they were not tanky. It just means that you need to put some effort into making the engagement to play out on your terms.

 

To reiterate:

• There are competitive MP turn based games that have these roles and work just fine
• There are competitive RTS games that have tanky and squishy units and it works just fine. It's easier there because a big number of units can just physically block a path though
• Finally, there are competitive MP party based realtime games that also have these roles and it works. Which ones you'll ask? Easy, MOBA games like DotA2 for instance. They are quite popular as well. DA would be very lucky to have even remotely equal level of popularity. Some people consider them fun enough to watch instead of football. And they don't even feature any of the mechanics I've mentioned! They involve a lot of running around though.

So there is even no need to invent anything, there are working examples out there already.

[Linkenski]

DA:I probably marks the end of AAA CRPGs but Kickstarter is bringing good CRPGs back with Pillars of Eternity and Tides of Numenera (okay, Tides of Wasteland 2, lol)

 

Witcher 3 is probably more CRPG than DA:I though. Hopefully, and Cyberpunk 2077 is gonna be CRPG too I think.

[Vox Draco]

I am so torn how to reply to this cringeworthy drama-thread ....

 

One part has me suddenly is singing:

 

Dragon Age killed the RPG-Game
Dragon Age killed the RPG-Game
In my mind I bear a scar
We can't rewind we've gone too far
Bioware came and broke your heart
Put the blame on EA-Games

Oh-a-a-a oh...

 

The other part is geting more dramatic, maybe more appropiate to the occasion (funeral or whatever?):

 

Forth, and fear no darkness! Arise! Arise, Players of RPGs! Spears shall be shaken, shields shall be splintered! A sword day... a red day... ere the sun rises! Cry now!... Cry now!... Cry! Cry to ruin and the RPG's ending!

 

And the third part is simply eyerolling and glad we've got still games like DAI, Witcher, Wasteland, Divinity, Pillars of Eternity, Numeria, Fallout, Elder Scrolls ... I am so friggin glad I have so much to choose from, and I like all of these games (some more, some less, some are not out yet, but possibly good)

 

 

[tmp7704]

And there's nothing wrong with them being a priority target if the combat system has means of making them hard to reach. Like that warrior with huge ass sword that gets 3 AOOs if you run past him and slices you into thin pieces. Now you need to come up with a plan how to flank them.

Or I can realize that the most obvious way to deal with this is not to have run past him -- and so you have to deal with the players asking what's the point of the fighter classes when people just shoot arrows and spells at squishies on both sides, and complaining how it makes the melee rogues relatively useless.

Because if you instead make the AI do the *dumb* thing and bring melee fighters to the encounters just so your fighters have things to do and feel viable... then well, that's ultimately not all that different from it doing the dumb thing and answering to the taunt button, is it. It's keeping things dumb on purpose for the sake of player's fun.

[Il Divo]

I am truly worried that DA:I spells the death of the CRPG. 

 

Bioware is the custodian of a line of wonderful CRPGs that began with Pool of Radiance in 1998, continued through all of the TSR Goldbox Games, the Baldur's Gate Series, the Neverwinter Nights series and DA:O and DA:II. I played them all and loved them all (to varying degrees of course). 

 

Sadly, with DA:I the line is broken. 

 

DA:1 is a visually stunning and vast landscape of collectibles and boredom. Welcome to the MMOfication of the CRPG. 

 

There is nothing heroic about collecting weeds and spending dozens of hours exploring beautiful but irrelevant environments to "claim" landmarks. There should be a pressing evil demanding the hero's full attention! The game has all the hallmarks of modern video games, which are designed as time sinks (collectibles, crafting, "power" levels to go to the next quest) and none of the things that made its predecessors so good (including a a linear plot line capable of being enjoyed without committing dozens of hours to irrelevant run and find quests). 

 

This may be a great game for those who like that sort of thing, but it is a far cry from its lineage. Please make it an aberrant blip in the Bioware genealogy and don't let it mark the end of the CRPG. 

 

I'd say Baldur's Gate 1 fits the bolded pretty well. Hell, Neverwinter Nights also has a garbage plot line when it comes right down to it. 

[MadDemiurg]

Or I can realize that the most obvious way to deal with this is not to have run past him -- and so you have to deal with the players asking what's the point of the fighter classes when people just shoot arrows and spells at squishies on both sides, and complaining how it makes the melee rogues relatively useless.

Because if you instead make the AI do the *dumb* thing and bring melee fighters to the encounters just so your fighters have things to do and feel viable... then well, that's ultimately not all that different from it doing the dumb thing and answering to the taunt button, is it. It's keeping things dumb on purpose for the sake of player's fun.

Somehow you ignored the rest of my post. There are lots of competitive (on a level unimaginable to BW) games where this works. I won't even bring up any turn based games or strategies to avoid debate on core mechanics differences. I also would only refer to MP games to avoid "but AI there is also dumb" argument. DotA2 has support, dps and tank chars. They are all used at highest competitive play in party engagements. I'm pretty sure players fighting in $10mil tournaments do not intentionally play dumb so that their tanks feel viable. And it doesn't even feature any special tanking mechanics like AOO, ZOC and the like, this is simply balanced out by the abilities and stats of the chars.

 

In short. it is possible to make it work, it has been proven many times. It requires more balancing effort but imo results in more interesting gameplay.

[Eelectrica]

I guess this thread proves there's no one way to do an RPG.

I've got an Icewind Dale playthrough at the moment. It's simple but fun. It doesn't try to be anything other than what it is - A dungeon crawler and see what loot your party picks up along the way. It's shallow as it can get, but still works.

 

I think Inquisitions problem is it tried to be all things, but didn't master anything. It tried to have an open world, but for all the space, there was little to actually do.

Other games with smaller budgets managed to do it better, and make the world feel alive. Exploring is fine, if there is something of interest when you get there.

 

Combat system tried to be tactical in places, but perhaps due to engine limititions, it didn't always work, and it just became to hold down a button until everything on the screen was dead.

 

Puzzles were fine, but perhaps a little too easy. I enjoyed the Astrariums for example. The Hissing wastes sentence puzzles could have been interesting, but too simple.

 

If BioWare have decided this style is what there going for, then I hope they learn from inquisition.

[Rawgrim]

Looks more like the suits in EA and he Bioware Devs sat down and looked at the top 5 rpgs around. And just copied and pasted whatever they felt was good with those games into DA:I. The scanning from The Witcher, lots from Skyrim, some bits from the creature combat in Dragon's Dogma, and the combat\hotkey setup of Diablo 3.

 

Looks very much like a hack-job, really.

[AlanC9]

Like that warrior with huge ass sword that gets 3 AOOs if you run past him and slices you into thin pieces. Now you need to come up with a plan how to flank them.

My plan would probably involve a missile weapon. The reach weapon thingy works great, but only if the enemy cooperates.

It'd probably be helpful if you explain exactly how DotA handles this issue.

[Eelectrica]

Looks more like the suits in EA and he Bioware Devs sat down and looked at the top 5 rpgs around. And just copied and pasted whatever they felt was good with those games into DA:I. The scanning from The Witcher, lots from Skyrim, some bits from the creature combat in Dragon's Dogma, and the combat\hotkey setup of Diablo 3.

 

Looks very much like a hack-job, really.

And therein is my frustration.

BioWare was a company that set trends, not followed them. Broke new ground, not treading so lightly over old ground that it's a pale imitation of what it is they're even trying to emulate.

[SofaJockey]

This may be a great game for those who like that sort of thing, but it is a far cry from its lineage. Please make it an aberrant blip in the Bioware genealogy and don't let it mark the end of the CRPG. 

 

I like this sort of thing.

I also liked Baldur's Gate in it's day, but games evolve.

DAI looks like a perfectly fine RPG to me, I hope they make more and further improve it.

[metatheurgist]

Which hardly means they were better RPGs for that. One could argue that having something other than combat for your character to do actually increases range of role-playing opportunities, not harm the game.

Never said anything about it being better or not. Was just countering the claim that it's always been there. Which it wasn't.

But like I said, I might experiment by asking my players to fetch 10 herbs and see if they find it "increases the range of roleplaying possibilities".

[Rawgrim]

And therein is my frustration.

BioWare was a company that set trends, not followed them. Broke new ground, not treading so lightly over old ground that it's a pale imitation of what it is they're even trying to emulate.

 

The people who were at Bioware back then, are gone now. Creative differences with EA.

[In Exile]

And therein is my frustration.
BioWare was a company that set trends, not followed them. Broke new ground, not treading so lightly over old ground that it's a pale imitation of what it is they're even trying to emulate.

What? Bioware was a huge opportunistic trend jumper. They made a D&D RPG because that was hot at the time instead of using a better ruleset. They dumped the PC for consoles and the Star Wars label when the new movies came out.

They came up with cool ideas - and the best example now isb the reaction wheel - but that's just on the RPing your character in a cinematic way side of things.

[Eelectrica]

What? Bioware was a huge opportunistic trend jumper. They made a D&D RPG because that was hot at the time instead of using a better ruleset. They dumped the PC for consoles and the Star Wars label when the new movies came out.

They came up with cool ideas - and the best example now isb the reaction wheel - but that's just on the RPing your character in a cinematic way side of things.

The D&D thing was a call made by the publisher, but even then they managed to revitalize D&D on PC's after years of failed D&D products. The did that with their inhouse developed Infinity engine. Creating landscapes the player could wander around in, but actually find some interesting and unexpected things along the way.

 

Even Knights of the old Republic broke new ground with the way they presented a Star Wars game. Before that it was simple FPS stuff or space shooter. The move to console was a Lucas Arts decision as much anything. 

[keyip]

That is not an rpg. Not even close. It is a sports game, nothing else.

 

By the standards you were measuring Bethesda's games by, it woulc very much be an RPG. You create your character, you roleplay, you level your character's abilities which affects your performance in career mode.

[zeypher]

DA:I probably marks the end of AAA CRPGs but Kickstarter is bringing good CRPGs back with Pillars of Eternity and Tides of Numenera (okay, Tides of Wasteland 2, lol)

 

Witcher 3 is probably more CRPG than DA:I though. Hopefully, and Cyberpunk 2077 is gonna be CRPG too I think.

Well said, Bio = action adventure with crappy story. Treat them as such and you will not be disappointed.

[keyip]

Witcher 3 is probably more CRPG than DA:I though. Hopefully, and Cyberpunk 2077 is gonna be CRPG too I think.

 

Witcher 2 had no attributes you can modify either. Eh, I was going to restate the reasons why The Witcher series can't be regarded a CRPG anymore but I've already said it many times and people must be getting bored. I will say this though, whenever people defend Witcher 2's "RPGness" they always resort to the storytelling techniques (branching narrative depending on choices.) They do this because the gameplay has been diluted and is practically indefensible. But this raises the point, if the primary requirement for CRPGness is having your choices affect the narrative (which conforms to Josh Sawyer's definition of an RPG btw) then that would open the door for a whole lot of interactive fiction begging to be apart of the genre...

[MadDemiurg]

My plan would probably involve a missile weapon. The reach weapon thingy works great, but only if the enemy cooperates.

It'd probably be helpful if you explain exactly how DotA handles this issue.

Pretty easy. Tanks are usually melee and have high defenses and often some means to root/slowdown enemies for a short time. Plus they still do solid damage so they can't be ignored. If you try to run behind them you can get rooted and take much more damage since suddenly you can be focused by more enemies since you get in range of both melee characters and ranged characters that stay behind. Dps characters are either ranged or have means to disengage fast like enhanced movement, teleports etc, so they jump in, do damage, then jump out.

 

Tbh this conversation is difficult to have in the forum format and it comes down to "but noooo, Superman uses his flying power to get away" kind of arguments. So I'll stop there, if you want to see how it plays out you can watch some tournament videos which are plenty on the internet or go play it yourself.

 

 

Witcher 2 had no attributes you can modify either. Eh, I was going to restate the reasons why The Witcher series can't be regarded a CRPG anymore but I've already said it many times and people must be getting bored. I will say this though, whenever people defend Witcher 2's "RPGness" they always resort to the storytelling techniques (branching narrative depending on choices.) They do this because the gameplay has been diluted and is practically indefensible. But this raises the point, if the primary requirement for CRPGness is having your choices affect the narrative (which conforms to Josh Sawyer's definition of an RPG btw) then that would open the door for a whole lot of interactive fiction begging to be apart of the genre...

 

I agree that TW2 gameplay mechanics were simplified to a level where some action games have comparable character progression. However DA:I is not that much better in this regard (it is, but not by a huge margin)