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Concern about where this is heading with the elves


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#1
Gervaise

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The fact that is was felt necessary to include the late addition of the Solas romance so that we would sympathise with his character more, seems to suggest that he is going to be the next antagonist - particularly after the epilogue.   However, I'm not exactly holding my breath that he actually wants to do anything about the modern day elves but, as he admitted after Haven, if people were to learn about his involvement with Corypheus then an elf Inquisitor, and by implication all elves, would suffer as a result, which would be equally true if he set something even more controversial into motion.

 

There is also the fact that in both Masked Empire and DAI there seems to be a concerted effort to rubbish the Dalish.   Solas asks the question are you typical of the Dalish?   First run through I would have been inclined to say yes if I was basing my answer on what I knew of them from previous games, particularly DAO where the first origin I played was Dalish.   Sure the Dalish had their faults but I still felt I could admire their tenacity and determination not to give in and surrender their freedom.    When I did the City elf origin it seemed clear that they didn't know an awful lot about the Dalish, just the odd anecdote about how so and so had run off to join them or had been helped by them, and it certainly didn't seem as though we were looking to the Dalish to suddenly swoop in and save us from the alienages or that we held them in high regard.    One thing that both groups did seem to have in common was the importance of sticking together as a community but that people who went outside of it were shunned and exluded, like Soris and his human wife or Zevran's Dalish mother with her woodcutter.   Even that was understandable given both communities were struggling to survive in a hostile human controlled world and that in the case of marrying a human you are literally encouraging the extinction of the elves, since any children will be elf blooded humans.   However, when a city elf ran off to the Dalish, it seemed that they would do their best to assimilate them.   Zevran gave up on joining them because he didn't like the life, not because they wouldn't accept him.   Pol was in our clan and Zathrian had taken in Lanaya.    The last one is particularly significant since she was a mage child and she was certainly not the only one since she had to compete for the position of First.

 

In DA2 Merrill is chatting with Sebastian and he is saying how the Chantry does good in that they look after widows and orphans.  Her response is that the Dalish do that anyway, not as religious duty.    Oddly enough, whilst Merrill doesn't seem to be treated with any sort of deference by the City elves, when Marethari comes to town they all appear to bow as though they regard her as someone they should reverence.   Quite apart from the fact that you'd think it would have been wiser for her to keep a low profile, I really don't get why they should regard her like this.   

 

We also discover that Merrill didn't originally belong to the Sabrae clan but was given to them by another clan who had a surfeit of mage children.    I understood this was act as of generosity and the tradition associated with this was to ensure that no clan was left without a Keeper.     My understanding of the lore at this point was that the Dalish believe that all their ancestors were magical (something they probably got right) and therefore the Keepers are held in such high regard because they feel they are closest to what a "true" elf should be.   The Keepers lead the clans and no one seems to be able to do anything without their agreement.

 

So then we move on to the latest lore regarding the Dalish.    In Masked Empire the Dalish clan we meet is meant to be representative of the Dalish generally. From what their Keeper says it is the Sabrae clan and Zathrian that are the exception with how they treat city elves who come to them for aid.     Clearly the Lavellan clan is the same since they, like Mahariel's father believe they can learn something from the humans.    Briala seems to hold it against them that they are not doing more to help the City elves.   However, what exactly are they meant to be doing?     The City elves in Origins weren't looking to them for assistance generally, not were the City elves in DA2.   I didn't exactly approve of the Keeper's attitude towards city elves but Briala's starry eyed expectations of the Dalish didn't seem realistic or what the majority of city elves would expect.   Her gripe mainly has to do with the fact that Felassan has been feeding the Keeper information from Briala over the years, about what exactly is never made clear, and that he was aware of this fact and should have been grateful.   I'm pretty sure the Keeper never accepted this information knowing it came from a lowly city elf, given his attitude towards them.   Nevertheless we are clearly meant to identify with Briala's reaction to the Dalish, which if the boards are anything to go by largely succeeded.

 

However, it gets worse.   I don't have a problem about the Dalish mistaken view of their gods since it was always clear they were basing their knowledge on very sketchy information.    However, the Dales was around for 2-300 years before it was finally conquered and yet we are to believe that in all that time they never turned up information that we discovered in a matter of weeks?    My big objection comes from the revised Dalish attitude to  mages and magic.    We are told by 3 separate individuals, Maevaris, Vivienne and "Dalish" from the Chargers, that there is a rule among the Dalish that there should by only 3 mages per clan and if it goes above that number, the spare is turned out from the clan.    Obviously if there is another clan on hand to take them, that is where they go but as Vivienne asks, what happens if they are all full up?    The answer would appear to be, according to Maevaris' experience, no matter what the age, the extra mage is sent away.   In her case, a seven year old child was effectively abandoned in the wilderness to die.   I cannot believe how the original 3 mage rule has been twisted in this way, particularly as it is illogical.

 

The reasoning for this expulsion of excess mages is apparently because they clans so fear possessed mages they want to limit numbers.   Why if that is the case do they have their senior position occupied by a mage?      Why do they hold them in such reverence and believe them to be closer to their ancestors?      Why in fact do they need as many as 3 mages in a clan at all?    As has previously be argued, if mages are in so much danger of being possessed, why isn't Tevinter a raving nut house?   What Andraste warned against and what is the chief danger of magic is the abuse of power.    A slave running away from Tevinter would not say they feared the Magisters because of abominations but their use of slaves in blood magic rituals.   This was Fenris' chief objection to mages and magic - abuse of power.     This would also have been true of the first inhabitants of the Dales, who became the Dalish.        If you think about it logically, the number of mage children in a clan would not likely be very large anyway; the average clan is not more than 50 members in total.   More than 3 would indicate a very high percentage of mages overall, which seems unlikely since they aren't breeding for them specifically.    However, when clan numbers are so small, every individual is surely valuable?    That is why they care for all widows and orphans as part of the whole clan family. Yet now we are asked to believe that they would abandon a child to die simply for being a mage, even though they also believe that elf mages are closest in their idea of a "true" elf.

 

So when Solas asks me am I typical of the Dalish, what am I to say?    I am not typical of the Dalish as portrayed in Masked Empire and DAI, nor is my clan.    So is the idea to make us less sympathetic towards the Dalish as the claimed last representatives of the "true" elves and therefore more inclined to sympathise with whatever action Solas takes in the future, however misguided it is, since even if it results in the wholesale slaughter of elves, particularly the Dalish, no one is going to mourn them much anyway?


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#2
MoonDrummer

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I agree.

The clan in TME was all made to look like nobs so we wouldn't care when Imshael boiled them alive and tore the skin from their bodies.

Th 3 Mage rule is dumb and out of character for the dalish

Solas will free the gods, who will be able to use the blood in vallasin to control the Dalish. They become generic bad guys and all deded.
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#3
Darkly Tranquil

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Pretty much everyone bar the Chantry comes out of DAI with egg on their faces. Not sure what that's about, but I dislike it a lot.
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#4
Tex

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You bring up some very good points I have to say I was a bit anoyed by the new lore but there's nothing that can be done about it oh well.

#5
NUM13ER

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Pretty much everyone bar the Chantry comes out of DAI with egg on their faces. Not sure what that's about, but I dislike it a lot.

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The same Chantry that, by and large, spends it's time trying to posture when the world is ending? I've seen a thread on nearly every organisation in Thedas being accused of having been assassinated by the writers and most of these accusations quietly ignore anything contrary to that notion.

 


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#6
Ashagar

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I don't think there is a single organization and group at this point that doesn't have egg on their face... well other than the fog warriors giving both the Tevinter and the Qunari constant trouble on the island they are fighting over.


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#7
Ogillardetta

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The same Chantry that, by and large, spends it's time trying to posture when the world is ending? I've seen a thread on nearly every organisation in Thedas being accused of having been assassinated by the writers and most accusations  quietly ignores anything contrary to that notion.

 

Pretty much this. Even as we're still trying to save everyone (and have already proven that we are the last and best hope to win this.) they still come over to whine about a new divine and wants to take away you spymaster and a squad member. 


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#8
leaguer of one

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1.Every clan is different.

2. Even in dao the dalish are show to have bad parts of it. From their arrogance to a keeper miss using magic. We had a dalish mage using blood magic to bind spirits to wolves and turning people into monsters. We have another dalish mage in awakening go into a rage and kill humans out of a miss understanding. Everything the dalish is shown to be in dai is not new.

 

 

Really it sound like you want to be bounded to the illusions of what the dalish are instead of looking at what they are.



#9
leaguer of one

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Pretty much everyone bar the Chantry comes out of DAI with egg on their faces. Not sure what that's about, but I dislike it a lot.

Did we play the same game? Too much of the game show that the chantry clearly does not know what they are doing and needed out side help to fix things.


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#10
leaguer of one

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I agree.

The clan in TME was all made to look like nobs so we wouldn't care when Imshael boiled them alive and tore the skin from their bodies.

Th 3 Mage rule is dumb and out of character for the dalish

Solas will free the gods, who will be able to use the blood in vallasin to control the Dalish. They become generic bad guys and all deded.

Point to a clan in da that has more then 3 mages in it.



#11
Mann42

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Pretty much everyone bar the Chantry comes out of DAI with egg on their faces. Not sure what that's about, but I dislike it a lot.

 

I love the fact that Bioware is finally starting to take everyone's sacred cows and make hamburger out of them.

 

People are flawed. Organizations, especially, are flawed. Rounding out the Dalish just makes for better stories in the long run.


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#12
Mann42

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The same Chantry that, by and large, spends it's time trying to posture when the world is ending? I've seen a thread on nearly every organisation in Thedas being accused of having been assassinated by the writers and most accusations  quietly ignores anything contrary to that notion.

 

Thanks for pointing this out. The Chanty is revealed to be so ineffectual that it first loses control of its charges (the Mages), then experiences a rebellion by their military arm. When it loses its Divine and a hole in the sky appears spewing demons, it descends into a state of infighting that results in yet another military organization rising up to fill the power vacuum. Despite all this, it still takes them months, if not years, to pick a new Divine. That's not an organization being shown as competent or in a positive light - it's a literal joke.

 

The positive side of faith is explored in DA:I. The concept of religion is shown as something that can act as a positive force in motivating and comforting the masses. However, while the religion shown having a positive effect is Andrastrian, the organization behind it, the Chantry, is not.

 

But even faith is not immune to scrutiny. The over-zealousness of the Templars resulting in the purge of innocent mages, the loss of faith by Corypheus resulting in his mad need to become a god to fill the void, and the very personal human struggles with faith explored by Cassandra and Liliana that play out very differently.

 

Either way, people that think the Chantry is shown in a positive light weren't paying attention, and misconstrue the exploration of faith as a concept with the most visible organization that claims to espouse it in the setting.


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#13
MoonDrummer

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Point to a clan in da that has more then 3 mages in it.

That wasn't my point

#14
leaguer of one

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That wasn't my point

Sure it was not. But the fact remain you can't deny they have some form of mage control. How can it be out of character if they are already doing it from dao? Why do they have so little mages per clan in a boom of mages?



#15
Bizantura

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Every thing that lives in nature and bonds with nature is sacrilege.  So eventually you have to take down that positive image.  That nature and humans can live happily together is a big no no in the west as for most religions too.  That simply reflects, even in games.  Truely creative expression is only allowed in advertising and then sadly only for binding to the everlasting greed and craving it creates and not to inspire!



#16
MoonDrummer

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Sure it was not. But the fact remain you can't deny they have some form of mage control. How can it be out of character if they are already doing it from dao? Why do they have so little mages per clan in a boom of mages?

It's out of character because for a group of people who's entire culture revolves around preserving relics from a time when everyone was a Mage, discarding mages is stupid, they should be breeding mages like pure bred dogs if anything.

Also they are all happy chappy loveley doveley with eachother so chucking their kids out into the forrest to die is also out of character.
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#17
MikaelNovasun

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The whole idea of dalish is FREEDOM, The idea that they would impose breeding practices completely subverts that idea. The entire reason they hate humans is their entire race was enslaved  and their cultural perverted by Tervintor. And it is hinted at that they spread the mages out between clans to avoid Templars. Having a large population of apostate mages prior to DA:I was just asking for Templars to get involved not to mention most the of common folk humans already fear the Dalish. It wouldn't take much for the Templars to stoke those fears to get help "cleansing" dalish mages.

 

And kicking out mages and when already having three is different between clans, you can refute it as a Dalish inquisitor and say something like "My clan has different practices.." There is also the dalish agent in multiplayer as an example, he has limited contact with his clan since he searching out knowledge involving arcane warriors and other ancient elven magic.


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#18
MisterJB

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Every thing that lives in nature and bonds with nature is sacrilege.  So eventually you have to take down that positive image.  That nature and humans can live happily together is a big no no in the west as for most religions too.  That simply reflects, even in games.  Truely creative expression is only allowed in advertising and then sadly only for binding to the everlasting greed and craving it creates and not to inspire!

 

Is this the same West that made Avatar the most sucessfull movie of all time?


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#19
leaguer of one

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It's out of character because for a group of people who's entire culture revolves around preserving relics from a time when everyone was a Mage, discarding mages is stupid, they should be breeding mages like pure bred dogs if anything.

Also they are all happy chappy loveley doveley with eachother so chucking their kids out into the forrest to die is also out of character.

Not at all. Mages attract demons. It's a fact. While it maybe an issue of wills with demons and mages, mages do have a chance of falling. The more mages they have higher chances of falling. Added, with the fact the each clan has little support from anyone with controlling them and the weight risk with supporting the mages vs supporting the clan, it easy to see that they would do this. Added every clan has different rules and ways around it as well. I mean they are even trading there mages form clan to clan when every clans meet, which is rare.



#20
leaguer of one

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The whole idea of dalish is FREEDOM, The idea that they would impose breeding practices completely subverts that idea. The entire reason they hate humans is their entire race was enslaved  and their cultural perverted by Tervintor. And it is hinted at that they spread the mages out between clans to avoid Templars. Having a large population of apostate mages prior to DA:I was just asking for Templars to get involved not to mention most the of common folk humans already fear the Dalish. It wouldn't take much for the Templars to stoke those fears to get help "cleansing" dalish mages.

 

And kicking out mages and when already having three is different between clans, you can refute it as a Dalish inquisitor and say something like "My clan has different practices.." There is also the dalish agent in multiplayer as an example, he has limited contact with his clan since he searching out knowledge involving arcane warriors and other ancient elven magic.

How does them sending mages away contradict there concept of freedom?



#21
llandwynwyn

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The dalish mage control was hinted at before DAI so I really don't understand why people keep talking about retcon.

To start, there are few mages in clans. Even DAO's, at most it had 5.

Then we learn that mages are becoming rare, yet some clans have "enough" - not more than one it seems- to spare. You think they'd want to hold on to any mages they can, to build up their numbers.

The dalish clans are also very different one from the other, so sending someone away is a hint they aren't that concerned with their well being.

Oh, and we know magic is partly genetic. From a culture that cheerish magic, most Keepers/Firsts seem to be childless and single. The only exception I can think of is Mihris and Zathrian, and he doesn't really count. There is no indication they incentive mages to procreate at all.

Templars harass dalish clans. Mage control could be forced adaptation, the only way for them to survive. It's already hard as it is for them.
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#22
TK514

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You see this as crapping all over the Dalish, and I see it as finally making them more than one-dimensional victims.  For two games and several companion products, the Dalish did exactly nothing except whine and die.  They were so completely stagnant in their victim role that it would have been impossible for the writers to ever do anything meaningful with them.

 

By throwing most of that out the window and remaking the Dalish as a people at least as responsible for their current state as humans, it gives them somewhere to go.  It gives them the potential for growth, because it gives them the opportunity to make up for the things they have done, and by doing so prove that they have something to offer the world.

 

Solas is going to be the best thing that ever happened to the Dalish if they let him.  He's going to do something that's as big a threat to the world as the Breach, and the elves are going to get a chance to prove their worth AND make up for things like the Second Blight and Red Crossing.  They are going to get the opportunity to shake off their xenophobia and racism and be counted as part of Thedas, rather than standing aside and watching others die in their place

 

At the same time, they are going to have the opportunity to learn about and confront the ugliness of the real history of their race, and say "We choose to reject the ways of our ancestors, to rise above their flaws and learn from their mistakes, and ours".  I even expect them to be given the opportunity to sacrifice the chance to reclaim some of the things they have striven for, in order to show that they are truly a part of the world, such as their much bemoaned former immortality.

 

Short version; thank god the writers are actually trying to make the Dalish more than whiny little losers who have no responsibility for their own current state, and thus no way to ever improve it.


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#23
In Exile

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I need to point out, again, (and as a big CE fan) that elves =/= the Dalish. Just like humans =/= Orlesians. 

 

I think the series was quite fair to the elves, though less so with the Dalish myth about the elves. Solas - who is the closest thing to a god in this series beside Flemeth - all but confirmed that the elves were immortal. That was a hotly contested piece of their lore that was unequivocally true. Solas furthermore confirmed that the elves did have an awe-inspiring magical society that covered Thedas in a way that was just not even comprehensible to modern day humans, elves, dwarves or qunari. Their society wasn't a utopian fantasy, but that's not disparaging them. Their greatest achievements, and the core of their solace for their past, is something that DA:I went out of its way to confirm. IMO, that's a big positive step for elves. 

 

Beyond that, with Orlais, there is the possibility of taking huge strides to improve the lot of the elves via the various Briala scenarios. That's a marked improvement for the CEs.

 

The only group that gets beaten down in DA:I are the Dalish. And DA has generally potrayed Dalish culture in a negative light since DA:O. Their leaders have had horrible hidden agendas and done terrible thing to a fault. DA:I is the first game where we are shown a Keeper who, by all accounts, is forthright, generally honest, and not inclined to perpetrate a horror or atrocity on his/her own people for selfish reasons. 

 

The Dalish paternalistic disparagement of CEs is enshrined in their codex since DA:O. This is the Dalish Elf Codex entry on CEs:

 

 

It is hard to tell our children about those of our people who have decided to live in the shemlen's cities. They ask, "Why would anyone want to be treated like that?" And sometimes I do not know what to say. I do not understand it myself. They were freed, but they have returned to live in the service of their former masters. They are housed like animals in walled sections of the shemlen's cities. They do the meanest of tasks and are rewarded with nothing. Why? I do not know.

 

We tell the children that the elvhen are strong, that we are a proud people, but they hear of these city elves who choose to toil under the humans' heavy hand. How do we teach them pride when they know there are others who would allow themselves to be trampled into the dust? So we tell them that these city elves are to be pitied, that they have given up on their people, given up their heritage. We tell them that some people are so used to being controlled that, when freed, they know not what to do with themselves. They are weak and afraid--afraid of the unfamiliar, afraid of our life of wandering. Above all, they are afraid even to hope that one day we may have a home of our own.

 

As to the 3-mage limit, that's clearly a new addition. But I don't think it's a change in attitude toward mages - in the old codex the Dalish venerated mages, sure, but they also treated them like chattel. Trading them away like property so that each clan had their appropriate share of a valuable resource. That's not anywhere near abandonment, but it's not exactly treatment that recognizes or respects personhood. 

 

As to how the Dalish could both strand mage children and venerate mages as their leaders, well, look at Tevinter. The Magisterium is entirely made up of mages, and the Imperium enslaves mages. Being lead by some mages does not mean that you treat all mages well. 

 

In general, Bioware really struggles with accurately portraying the Dalish as a nomadic society so I wouldn't use IRL logic about nomads to apply to the Dalish one way or another. 


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#24
llandwynwyn

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Solas is going to be the best thing that ever happened to the Dalish if they let him.  He's going to do something that's as big a threat to the world as the Breach, and the elves are going to get a chance to prove their worth AND make up for things like the Second Blight and Red Crossing.  They are going to get the opportunity to shake off their xenophobia and racism and be counted as part of Thedas, rather than standing aside and watching others die in their place




Yeah, sure because it's working so well for the City Elves, right.

Red Crossing wasn't a b&w issue at all.

I don't blame them for staying out of the second blight but that is just opinion.
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#25
Gervaise

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Most people who have been raised under the Chantry have been taught to fear mages, regardless of their actual experience of them, so when a parent, like Jowan's rejects their child and dumps them on the Chantry steps, it is to be expected.   Occasionally a parent like Cole's father goes totally nuts and kills his mage wife and tries to kill his children but that is because of the culture they have been raised in.   They are likely to develop a fear of mages when their only experience of them is either when one does go bonkers or when they see them as part of a Chantry controlled party.  

 

In Tevinter, where magic is the norm, even non mages live in hope that they will have a mage child, so improving the prospects of the family as a whole.

 

The Qun always seemed the real bad guys up to now, sewing the mages mouths shut and keeping them literally on a leash.

 

The Dalish have now been demoted to the low life of mage prejudice.   Did you not get what I said above?    In Maevaris' clan they had one too many mages so the solution was to abandon the youngest and leave her to fend for herself at 7 years' old.    I don't care that not every clan does this.   I feel it is inconceivable that any clan does this and it is clearly common enough practice if Vivienne holds it up as an example of how the Dalish "sensibly" believe that mages should be controlled.   And the fact is that it doesn't make any sense at all in view of the fact that the Keeper is always a mage, the Keepers govern the clans and are considered to be closest to their ideal of what an elf should be because of the fact that they can do magic.    If this is done because they fear demons or want to appease the Chantry, why don't they take them to the nearest Chantry and leave them there?   Yes, Zathrian did blood magic and the Dalish are prejudiced against humans: I am not saying they are perfect but on the whole any civilised society condemns those that ill treat children and this is betrayal of children at its worst level, like that of abandoning children who are handicapped or the wrong sex.

 

If, as had always been claimed, the Dalish believe that when they remember what it is to be a true elf and recover enough of their culture, their gods will return to them, would they really risk endangering that relationship by effectively killing off their most precious clan members, that according to their beliefs the gods would most approve of?   Granted the writers can do what they like with their lore but at least let the damn lore make sense.    That is why I feel this has been done more to put the Dalish on a par with the Chantry and the Qun concerning how they view magic and mages, so no one comes out as being better than any other and why I find it so hard to reconcile it with the previous games I have played.

 

And I don't see how the latest "revisionist" Dalish make them more meaningful and be able to be used effectively than the previous Dalish.   It just makes them seem cruel idiots and so dispensible.


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