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[LobselVith8]

So the closest you can come to showing a clan with more than three Mages is a clan that had three mages and a guy that wasn't part of the clan but lived nearby(and whose presence/existence is dependent on performing an optional side quest).

So...no examples to support your case at all.

You forgot the part where Aneirin was welcomed into the clan, treated well and taught elven magic, and that he left some years to be his own but still follows the clan because he feels indebted to them (which would still make the 'three mage' recton rule entirely pointless in this case).

And that his existence predates the Warden ever meeting Wynne by decades, so I don't even know why you brought that up.

[leaguer of one]

You forgot the part where Aneirin was welcomed into the clan, treated well and taught elven magic, and that he left some years to be his own but still follows the clan because he feels indebted to them (which would still make the 'three mage' recton rule entirely pointless in this case).

And that his existence predates the Warden ever meeting Wynne by decades, so I don't even know why you brought that up.

He fallows them as an outsider. Even he says he is not part of the clan. That was his point.

[TK514]

He fallows them as an outsider. Even he says he is not part of the clan. That was his point.

Exactly. He is not part of the clan, so the clan has three Mages. You have no examples of clans with more than three.

If you're going to count people that happen to live near the clan, you might as well try counting the Old Oak, the Lady, and the crazy guy that lives in a stump.

Edit: as to why I brought up the optional nature of his existence, you're always keen to use optional conversation as proof of your points, so I figured you'd understand. If I have a playthrough were I don't discuss him with Wynne, he doesn't exist. No matter how many times you visit the forest, he won't be there, and no one will mention him. In other words, he wouldn't count against the allotted three mages regardless.

[LobselVith8]

Exactly. He is not part of the clan, so the clan has three Mages. You have no examples of clans with more than three.

 

Aneirin was part of the clan, when they already had Zathrian, Lanaya, and Elora; he spent years with him, he was trained by them, and he received vallaslin when he was old enough. The fact that he says that he left because he preferred to be out on his own years after he was part of the clan doesn't change the simple fact that he was a fourth mage in a Dalish clan.

 

If you're going to count people that happen to live near the clan, you might as well try counting the Old Oak, the Lady, and the crazy guy that lives in a stump.

 

If you're going to ignore the simple fact that we already have a precedent of a clan accepting a fourth mage into their midst, then there's little for us to discuss.

 

Edit: as to why I brought up the optional nature of his existence, you're always keen to use optional conversation as proof of your points, so I figured you'd understand.

 

You mean when I pointed out that the Dalish had their own historical account because of their codex entry and that the elven Warden made reference to it in dialogue? You're trying to slander me because I disagreed with people who pretended that only the Chantry had a historical account about the war between the Dales and Orlais? You're starting to act incredibly ridiculous.

 

If I have a playthrough were I don't discuss him with Wynne, he doesn't exist. No matter how many times you visit the forest, he won't be there, and no one will mention him. In other words, he wouldn't count against the allotted three mages regardless.

 

There's a difference between game mechanics and the actual storyline. Aneirin doesn't cease to exist from reality if the Wynne never mentions him to the Warden, he's simply not encountered.

[Addai]

Nobody required mages to be isolated from mundanes because before the Chantry, no one but mages had the power to do so, and they were the ones least interested in social division. They ruled society. That abominations rates didn't wipe them out doesn't really mean much of anything except that abomination rates didn't wipe them out.

It is far more likely because the Andrastians are also living in the past, dredging up the time when "free" magic threatened the world under the old god cults.

[MiyuEmi]

I think, personally, this is going in a good direction for the elves.  The Dalish have, admittedly, been living on unclear history for a long time.  Whether or not they'll be proud of that history once they finally learn of it is another thing but they've proved throughout the series that they can definitely be arrogant and to an extent xenophobic.  Solas seems to hint in dialogue that putting the elves back the way they were, is not the right course of action.  While the Dalish have been viewed and view themselves as victims, to a certain degree, Solas points out that elves were not the romanticised peoples that everyone seems to want to remember.  That they destroyed Arthalan through war, that they kept slaves, that the gods were actually nobles and that they could be ruthless.

 

I'm trying to express myself here but it's not working properly.  Basically, the elves are the only race in Thedas for which the ancient version of them, the immortal elves, were thought to no longer exist, having been largely bred out of existence by human involvement or destroyed by themselves after the removal of their gods for guidance.  This is a development I'm actually interested in seeing occur.  I want to get a final word on elven history in Thedas and once and for all have the Dalish elves, trying to cling to that history, actually have an accurate one to reflect upon and see how true knowledge of their past effects them as a people. 

 

As far as limiting the number of mages, I'll agree with what's said above.  I can't think of a clan we've come up against that has more than 3 mages in it.  I suppose this would make sense if it was an unconscious effort to avoid the mistakes of the past where so many elvish people were magic users and that this possibly attributed to their attitudes and their history.  Afterall, Tevinter has proven what happens to a society when magic users rule. While not all of them are bad, there are more than enough to ensure that they make all the rules and have all the power.

[littlebrightpanda]

It is far more likely because the Andrastians are also living in the past, dredging up the time when "free" magic threatened the world under the old god cults.

 

Isn't it that almost everybody is living in the past, the Dalish, Andrastians, Tevinter, Dwarves? The only ones that are kind of present are the Qunari, but they don't know their history (have they forgotten? Censored?). They only have different ways to enforce their love of the past. 

[Addai]

Isn't it that almost everybody is living in the past, the Dalish, Andrastians, Tevinter, Dwarves? The only ones that are kind of present are the Qunari, but they don't know their history (have they forgotten? Censored?). They only have different ways to enforce their love of the past.

Possibly, but the point is that Dean is implying that Andrastian "revealed truth" is actually "natural truth" and the only reason other societies don't follow Andrastian dogmas on magic (or something like them) is that they haven't had the power to do so.

As far as limiting the number of mages, I'll agree with what's said above.  I can't think of a clan we've come up against that has more than 3 mages in it.  I suppose this would make sense if it was an unconscious effort to avoid the mistakes of the past where so many elvish people were magic users and that this possibly attributed to their attitudes and their history.  Afterall, Tevinter has proven what happens to a society when magic users rule. While not all of them are bad, there are more than enough to ensure that they make all the rules and have all the power.

That would be an example of absorbing Andrastian ways of thinking hence to me is an example of corruption. Which is possibly what we're meant to be seeing- the Dalish becoming city elves in wagons.

[MiyuEmi]

@Addai: I suppose that could be true as well.  You reflect that which surrounds you.

[Antergaton]

I do wonder why so many people take what Solas says as complete fact. Like the tattoo thing, it was meant for 'slaves', yet Abelas an obvious leader in his little let's protect the Well thing, is not a slave and by his status probably never was. He has a tattoo though.

 

Also, Solas lies about if people found of if the Orb was elven. Well not lies, speculates. That won't happen because of who was using it. You say 'original Darkspawn/Tevinter Magister' and any blame is put on that only regardless of the origins of an item he used.

 

Your other points are sound but it's like many things in the DA world, not every races is as it seems. Kal-Sharok exists when it was thought lost, Anvil of the Void was an abomination not the item that would return Dwarves to their glory. Tevinter are not all evil. And Qunari doubt themselves. But isn't this the point of all this, cultures change and develop. In 1500 years, lets see how well out current culture holds up, in time will be still hail shakespeare as one the best writers of our time? Will Elvis still be considered the King and will people develop and entire religion to him (due to sketchy historical records found about him)?

[Andreas Amell]

That part about the robes makes it even more pathetic. It sounds like a bunch of terrible archaeologists who mistook a shovel for a sword.

[MiyuEmi]

@ Antergaton: Abelas's tattoo is for Mythal I think, and he is bound to serve at her temple.  While he may lead that particular group, Solas's comment to him that his blood oath had been repaid supports the idea that he is not there willingly.  Even Corypheus comments during the final battle to the IQ that they are wearing their slave markings with pride.  So yeah, I believe most of what Solas says, especially on a second playthrough as you can clearly tell when he's being evasive and that his 'I learned it in the Fade' is likely speak for I lived through it but I don't want to tell you that!

[Treacherous J Slither]

It seems silly to me to keep mage numbers low in a clan out of fear of possession. Having more mages in a clan would mean that the problem can be resolved sooner and any damage done can be patched up more efficiently. An armed force aided by magic is far more effective than one that must do without.

[Antergaton]

@ Antergaton: Abelas's tattoo is for Mythal I think, and he is bound to serve at her temple.  While he may lead that particular group, Solas's comment to him that his blood oath had been repaid supports the idea that he is not there willingly.  Even Corypheus comments during the final battle to the IQ that they are wearing their slave markings with pride.  So yeah, I believe most of what Solas says, especially on a second playthrough as you can clearly tell when he's being evasive and that his 'I learned it in the Fade' is likely speak for I lived through it but I don't want to tell you that!

 

Yes, for Mythal not a slave to. It's a show of respect Abelas has for his god. Solas wasn't there for my playthrough yet Abelas accepted that what he was protecting was a waste none the less. You are saying that Solas is confirming what Solas said, yeah okay...

 

And I'm not going to believe anything the main villain says. It's another thing people here have an obession with, they take Cory's words as exact truths. How does he know about Elven lore? Having been born several hundred years after the fall of Arlathan. Unless those markings are not Elven but Tevinter, he wouldn't know. 

 

I do believe Solas is old, I also believe he did live through a lot of things but I don't believe we should just take what all of what he says as fact. We know he is a liar and was only there for himself. Instead of helping Dalish become better he scorns and shuns them. This is not the way someone who wishes to preserve the old ways does things and in the end the only people who will believe he is a god will be himself and no one.

[MiyuEmi]

@Antergaton: Then why does Abelas say, Bound as we are Bound, when you ask about the price for drinking from the well?  You would be a slave to her will and that isn't willing, you're unconsciously forced to do as she asks, as shown in the scene with Flemeth.  Clearly you don't want to believe Solas and I'll agree that he believes that everyone is an acceptable loss if you get in his way and he is deceptive, but I can't see him as a complete antagonist.  Maybe Solas is in some way suffering from Abelas's situation, as he says that each time they wake, the world is further and further from the one they remember.  I do believe the meaning of the Vallislin however, and I suppose we'll have to wait from any confirmation from Bioware what the true meaning of them is.  The fact is the Dalish don't know they history accurately and this is the first point in the series (at least for me) where we're forced to actually question what they believe and it's validity.

[Aren]

I love the fact that Bioware is finally starting to take everyone's sacred cows and make hamburger out of them.

 

People are flawed. Organizations, especially, are flawed. Rounding out the Dalish just makes for better stories in the long run.

In your opinion, i love the story of the Inquisition even without the involvement of the elven lore.

Organizations are flawed,  tell this to the Grey Wardens.

[SolNebula]

Tbh really don't care what BW does in the game or how they will tell the story I'll always be on the elven side. Solas will be the God that will lead elves to regaining their true potential. Hope we can help him in the next game. If we have to side with the humans and the chantry again maybe against Solas........well i won't buy that game at all

[MoonDrummer]

Tbh really don't care what BW does in the game or how they will tell the story I'll always be on the elven side. Solas will be the God that will lead elves to regaining their true potential. Hope we can help him in the next game. If we have to side with the humans and the chantry again maybe against Solas........well i won't buy that game at all

Am I the only one that thinks solas is planning committing genocide to create lebensraum for the 40 or so ancient elves that remain

[SolNebula]

Am I the only one that thinks solas is planning committing genocide to create lebensraum for the 40 or so ancient elves that remain

 

I think no, he will enlighten all elves on how they were and what was lost. He will try to restore the elves to the dignity they had. Ofc there will be war as humans won't allow that. I think this will have a great impact on the future games....sort of feeling it.

[SolNebula]

lol this is ridiculous you do know what Solas did in Inquisition right?
so of course we will be against him

also did we play the same game? when did we side with the chantry?

 

I know and I don't see any bad in it....if you are correct then I'll be done with this franchise.

 

We always did side with Chantry....weren't we the "herald" of Andraste??.....

[Antergaton]

@Antergaton: Then why does Abelas say, Bound as we are Bound, when you ask about the price for drinking from the well?  You would be a slave to her will and that isn't willing, you're unconsciously forced to do as she asks, as shown in the scene with Flemeth.  Clearly you don't want to believe Solas and I'll agree that he believes that everyone is an acceptable loss if you get in his way and he is deceptive, but I can't see him as a complete antagonist.  Maybe Solas is in some way suffering from Abelas's situation, as he says that each time they wake, the world is further and further from the one they remember.  I do believe the meaning of the Vallislin however, and I suppose we'll have to wait from any confirmation from Bioware what the true meaning of them is.  The fact is the Dalish don't know they history accurately and this is the first point in the series (at least for me) where we're forced to actually question what they believe and it's validity.

 

Bound to the will of a god is different to being a slave. For one, Abelas just leaves anyway. This 'bound' was a choice it seems else he wouldn't/couldn't have left so easily, Abelas seems to be doing his job not through being forced to but out of habbit (it may be all he's known for a long time). Yet, the way Morrigan/Quizzy is controlled by Flemeth shows a simple tattoo is in no way the same thing.

 

I'm fine to believe Solas on some things but the fact he did lie about his original intentions and the reason him being there to help is reason to doubt anything he says in direct conversation with those around him to hide who he is and how he knows it. I do not view him as an antagonist, just a selfish liar.

 

Times have changed as you mention Abelas notices the changes each time they wake up. Let's say that the tattoos were once a sign of oppression/ownership. It doesn't matter, now they are not. Now they are a sign of respect and honour in the Dalish and Solas just ignores this, he may have slept but he learnt nothing while doing it.

 

 

All this said, it's up to David Gaider I guess (The Maker ), consider this, in the same idea that their culture (including religion and belief in their gods) and way of life is being told to us that it is wrong, there is the other side of things whereby Gaider basically confirmed that their gods are real. An odd contradiction.