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Concern about where this is heading with the elves


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#151
Wulfram

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Most of the Dalish stuff in this game is pretty decent, I thought.  What we learn about Red Crossing is believable, the lore revalations are interesting.  Overall I'm more interested in the Dalish than I was before, because before they didn't have much going on apart from being jerks.  The only thing I don't like is the whole abandoning mage kids to the wilderness thing.  And that's probably more about Bioware wanting the Mage/Templar debates to be balanced than anything else.

 

I find the City Elves treatment in DA:I more annoying.  We barely talk to any outside of Sera, who rejects that identity, that servant who drops a box and a few mages who are just mages.  Then suddenly we have Briala leading a rebellion against stuff that this game never really makes clear for people who we've never met, and it seems like the game is determined to equate it with the powerplays of Gaspard and Celene.



#152
Addai

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I do wonder why so many people take what Solas says as complete fact. Like the tattoo thing, it was meant for 'slaves', yet Abelas an obvious leader in his little let's protect the Well thing, is not a slave and by his status probably never was. He has a tattoo though.

As was pointed out, Abelas talks about being bound forever to the will of Mythal, and it's certain (from his reaction if you drink from the well) that Solas views such service also as slavery. I don't think there's any contradiction there.
 

Yes, for Mythal not a slave to. It's a show of respect Abelas has for his god. Solas wasn't there for my playthrough yet Abelas accepted that what he was protecting was a waste none the less. You are saying that Solas is confirming what Solas said, yeah okay...
 
And I'm not going to believe anything the main villain says. It's another thing people here have an obession with, they take Cory's words as exact truths. How does he know about Elven lore? Having been born several hundred years after the fall of Arlathan. Unless those markings are not Elven but Tevinter, he wouldn't know. 
 
I do believe Solas is old, I also believe he did live through a lot of things but I don't believe we should just take what all of what he says as fact. We know he is a liar and was only there for himself. Instead of helping Dalish become better he scorns and shuns them. This is not the way someone who wishes to preserve the old ways does things and in the end the only people who will believe he is a god will be himself and no one.

Well it's slightly off topic but no I don't know that. He's not "there for himself" any more than others who have personal reasons to help the Inquisition. Solas also more holds back the truth than outright lies. It might be a fine distinction but I don't see his deception as being malevolent- he views it as necessary. To me he's in the role of antagonist, in a way, but in the vein of Loghain or Anders where his actions are understandable and sympathetic versus villainous. It's also not clear to me what motive he would have for lying to Lavellan about her vallaslin in a private conversation which ends with him breaking off their romantic attachment. The writer has said that he was intending to tell her the truth about himself and at the last moment chickened out and told her about the vallaslin, but Weekes didn't say that he lied about that.
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#153
Patchwork

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If Cory didn't taunt Lavellan about the vallaslin too I'd wonder if vallaslin=slave markings wasn't just Solas' opinion on them. He was a god in that time his view on things wouldn't necessarily be shared by commoners. 



#154
Antergaton

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As was pointed out, Abelas talks about being bound forever to the will of Mythal, and it's certain (from his reaction if you drink from the well) that Solas views such service also as slavery. I don't think there's any contradiction there.
 
Well it's slightly off topic but no I don't know that. He's not "there for himself" any more than others who have personal reasons to help the Inquisition. Solas also more holds back the truth than outright lies. It might be a fine distinction but I don't see his deception as being malevolent- he views it as necessary. To me he's in the role of antagonist, in a way, but in the vein of Loghain or Anders where his actions are understandable and sympathetic versus villainous. It's also not clear to me what motive he would have for lying to Lavellan about her vallaslin in a private conversation which ends with him breaking off their romantic attachment. The writer has said that he was intending to tell her the truth about himself and at the last moment chickened out and told her about the vallaslin, but Weekes didn't say that he lied about that.

 

Again, people assume I think Solas evil. He's not, liar and selfish does not mean he is an antagonist or malevolent just a liar and selfish, good people can be these things. Blackwall is a liar but he told the truth in the end, realising that his what he was doing was wrong. Hiding from his responsibility, facing up to his actions and willing to lose everything to set things right. Solas, on the other hand hid his true intentions, kept knowledge he knew about Corypheous and the orb from people, considering it could have helped them knowing these things.

 

Loghain was misguided. Anders delusional. Salos a liar. These are basic characterisations and Solas fits his well.



#155
llandwynwyn

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Abelas was a servant to Mythal's will just as is the person that drinks from the well. All ancient elves in Mythal's temple have the same vallaslin, all serve her, all are her slaves. That isn't a point of discussion anymore, Bioware has made it clear and canon.

That Solas lies about some things doesn't matter.

#156
Antergaton

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If Cory didn't taunt Lavellan about the vallaslin too I'd wonder if vallaslin=slave markings wasn't just Solas' opinion on them. He was a god in that time his view on things wouldn't necessarily be shared by commoners. 

 

How/Why would Corypheous know? being born 300 years after the fall of Arlathan, this I don't understand. Sure take Solas word but Cory's is fact as well?

 

Yet your point on Solas is well made. He may have looked down on those who tattooed themselves in respect of their gods as fools because it appeared to him they marked themselves and then served their god. In reality they may have done it out of respect and dedication, they just also happened to serve their god, just like a Victor in the real world serves God.



#157
Addai

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If Cory didn't taunt Lavellan about the vallaslin too I'd wonder if vallaslin=slave markings wasn't just Solas' opinion on them. He was a god in that time his view on things wouldn't necessarily be shared by commoners.

True, I had forgotten that.
 

Again, people assume I think Solas evil. He's not, liar and selfish does not mean he is an antagonist or malevolent just a liar and selfish, good people can be these things. Blackwall is a liar but he told the truth in the end, realising that his what he was doing was wrong. Hiding from his responsibility, facing up to his actions and willing to lose everything to set things right. Solas, on the other hand hid his true intentions, kept knowledge he knew about Corypheous and the orb from people, considering it could have helped them knowing these things.
 
Loghain was misguided. Anders delusional. Salos a liar. These are basic characterisations and Solas fits his well.

Okay, though I don't see how his telling you that the orb was his would change anything, except probably make you kick him out of the Inquisition when he believed you needed his help. And not to be pedantic, but he doesn't lie about his intentions. He tells you in an early conversation that he wants to recover the artifact that caused the Breach- he just doesn't say why.

#158
Patchwork

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How/Why would Corypheous know? being born 300 years after the fall of Arlathan, this I don't understand. Sure take Solas word but Cory's is fact as well?

 

Yet your point on Solas is well made. He may have looked down on those who tattooed themselves in respect of their gods as fools because it appeared to him they marked themselves and then served their god. In reality they may have done it out of respect and dedication, they just also happened to serve their god, just like a Victor in the real world serves God.

 

I find Cory's taunting contrived too, and like the writers are kicking a romanced Lavellan while she's down but he does, confirming Solas' take on the vallaslin.  



#159
TK514

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Aneirin was part of the clan, when they already had Zathrian, Lanaya, and Elora; he spent years with him, he was trained by them, and he received vallaslin when he was old enough. The fact that he says that he left because he preferred to be out on his own years after he was part of the clan doesn't change the simple fact that he was a fourth mage in a Dalish clan.
 

 
If you're going to ignore the simple fact that we already have a precedent of a clan accepting a fourth mage into their midst, then there's little for us to discuss.
 

 
You mean when I pointed out that the Dalish had their own historical account because of their codex entry and that the elven Warden made reference to it in dialogue? You're trying to slander me because I disagreed with people who pretended that only the Chantry had a historical account about the war between the Dales and Orlais? You're starting to act incredibly ridiculous.
 

 
There's a difference between game mechanics and the actual storyline. Aneirin doesn't cease to exist from reality if the Wynne never mentions him to the Warden, he's simply not encountered.


Anrein was not part of the clan. He specifically says as much. there is no precedent for a four mage clan. Even if there were, and there isn't, you're the one that's always keen to point out how not all clans are the same. That a clan who's Keeper used Blood Magic for vengeance against people who never harmed him, and who lied to his clan and put them in danger for his own selfish reasons once a year, to flaunt other Dalish traditions wouldn't be a surprise. STILL not a retcon.

I wasn't actually thinking of any specific instance, just your go-to tactic of using optional protagonist dialog as proof. In order for that to be slander, it would have to be untrue. Which you just admitted it wasn't by giving an example. So, thanks.

Anrein is completely optional content. He does not exist in worldstates where you do not have that conversation with Wynne. No one else ever mentions him, he isn't an unexplained NPC in the game world, there are zero signs pointing to him without the trigger, and he's never referenced in other games. He's no more a part of the world if you don't talk to Wynne about him than Starbaby is if you don't have Warden's Keep.

#160
Gervaise

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Whether or not we have seen a clan with four mages before is irrelevant; what I keep banging on about is the fact that this 3 mages rule is inconsistent with Dalish beliefs.    They are trying to get back their culture and live as close as possible to how their ancestors lived.   They believe (correctly) that all their ancestors were magical.    Thus anyone with magic is closer to being what their ancient ancestors were.   Yet we are now led to believe that they have an arbitrary rule that causes them to throw out any mages from the clan if they exceed the number of 3.  

 

The 3 mage rule was previously to ensure that the mages were shared round, so no clan should have more than 3 mages when another clan has only one Keeper, or possibly no one at all if the Keeper has died without a replacement.     That sort of rule made sense.     It showed that however far apart the clans might be, when they came together at the 10 year gathering they would ensure the preservation of the culture for all their people.

 

 

The whole point of the various approaches to mages is that there were differences in approach.    We still have the situation in Rivain where the people revere their Wise Women seers who deliberately allow themselves to be possessed by spirits in order to impart wisdom to the masses.   (I'm assuming that they haven't changed that as well).    So why is it suddenly such a problem to have an approach that is different from the Orlesian Chantry among the Dalish?    The Dalish would have established their customs in the 200 years before the foundation of the Orlesian Chantry and given their determination to hang on to whatever they can of their ancient culture, why would they suddenly introduce something so in conflict with their beliefs just because they were now on the move?  

 

The thing is that is so objectionable is the suggestion that they would simply abandon a young child in the wilderness.   At least with "Dalish"'s clan the Keeper apparently suggested that an older mage might like to leave and see the world.    However, even this doesn't make sense.    Previously the Dalish have been very much isolationists who want nothing to do with the outside world, which is why Lavellan clan is unusual, and yet we are to believe they would encourage their members to go and get mixed up with the humans and their culture.     Instead of a proud race who stick together in order to be different from the world around them, they are now portrayed as a rather petty minority who don't even value their own clan members.     So people are unlikely to sympathise with them much if the writers do decide to stick the knife in.  


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#161
cronshaw

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Pretty much everyone bar the Chantry comes out of DAI with egg on their faces. Not sure what that's about, but I dislike it a lot.


The chantry has plenty of egg on its face
Their existence and current construction is why the world has gone to ****.
Pretty much everyone from the chantry not associated with the inquisition is portrayed as short-sighted, power hungry, delusional, petty or some combination of all four.

BioWare has been planning this since day one. This turning the lore upside down. They have established lore through hearsay, propaganda and rumor and the player doesn't have any privileged information not available to characters in the game, in some cases less.
It is one of the things they got right.

#162
StrangeStrategy

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Pretty much everyone bar the Chantry comes out of DAI with egg on their faces. Not sure what that's about, but I dislike it a lot.

 

Right, because the whole bickering, paranoia, loss of control and power-hoarding really made the Chantry look great...

 

The Dalish are flawed. The Wardens are flawed. The Orlesian Empire is flawed. Pretty much everyone is except the Inquisition, for now.

 

As for that 3 Mage rule... Wasn't Merrill moved to our Dalish clan? She wasn't born into it, I don't think.
 



#163
Nightdragon8

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How/Why would Corypheous know? being born 300 years after the fall of Arlathan, this I don't understand. Sure take Solas word but Cory's is fact as well?

 

Yet your point on Solas is well made. He may have looked down on those who tattooed themselves in respect of their gods as fools because it appeared to him they marked themselves and then served their god. In reality they may have done it out of respect and dedication, they just also happened to serve their god, just like a Victor in the real world serves God.

yes because books don't exist and the fact the treventer pretty much took over the elves religon means that they can't know anything about them yes? *sigh*



#164
stonerbishop

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Loghain was misguided.


LOL

#165
stonerbishop

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I for one welcome the extinction of the knife ears.

Dwarven Glory!

#166
Gervaise

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Merrill was given to the Sabrae clan because at that time there was only one mage, Marethari within it, so no one for her to train up as her replacement, while her original clan had several so could afford to be generous.    There was no suggestion she was given simply because her own clan wanted to get rid of her.



#167
IanPolaris

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Anrein was not part of the clan. He specifically says as much. there is no precedent for a four mage clan.

 

That isn't quite what he says.  He says he doesn't consider himself to be fully part of the Dalish or the circle.  However, he has the Tattoes that mark him as a full Dalish Adult, and the clan pretty clearly does regard him as one of their own.



#168
LobselVith8

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Anrein was not part of the clan. He specifically says as much. there is no precedent for a four mage clan. Even if there were, and there isn't, you're the one that's always keen to point out how not all clans are the same. That a clan who's Keeper used Blood Magic for vengeance against people who never harmed him, and who lied to his clan and put them in danger for his own selfish reasons once a year, to flaunt other Dalish traditions wouldn't be a surprise. STILL not a retcon.

 

There is a precedent, despite the fact that you consistently ignore it: Aneirin. He was the fourth mage in a clan when it already had Keeper Zathrian, First Lanaya, and Elora. He was welcomed into the clan as a boy, grew up among the Dalish (they even know him fondly as 'Aneirin the Healer'), was taught elven magic, and was even given vallaslin when he became an adult. When we encounter Aneirin, he is wearing Dalish leather, and refers to the gods; while he says he decided to live out among nature as an adult, he makes it clear it was of his own volition, and that he follows the clan because he feels indebted to them.

 

You're also missing the main point that the 'three mage recton' is inconsistent with how the Dalish were previously portrayed, and it's in complete contradiction with what Merrill explicitly said, as well as her own codex entry.

 

I wasn't actually thinking of any specific instance, just your go-to tactic of using optional protagonist dialog as proof. In order for that to be slander, it would have to be untrue. Which you just admitted it wasn't by giving an example. So, thanks.

 

For someone who claims that I do that repeatedly, you seem to have a strange inability to actually cite any example where I've done so, while I pointed out a particular time where I addressed the main character's dialogue in conjunction with a codex entry that affirmed the same information, since I disputed that only the Chantry had a historical account about the war with the Dales.

 

Anrein is completely optional content. He does not exist in worldstates where you do not have that conversation with Wynne. No one else ever mentions him, he isn't an unexplained NPC in the game world, there are zero signs pointing to him without the trigger, and he's never referenced in other games. He's no more a part of the world if you don't talk to Wynne about him than Starbaby is if you don't have Warden's Keep.

 

Encountering Aneirin is optional; Aneirin himself exists regardless of whether or not the Warden personally meets him, particularly as it's an incident that helped shape who Wynne became. You're confusing game mechanics with the narrative, but your line of thought would be like arguing that Goldanna or Marjolaine don't exist unless the Warden personally met them, which also wouldn't make any sense.



#169
MisterJB

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There is a precedent, despite the fact that you consistently ignore it: Aneirin. He was the fourth mage in a clan when it already had Keeper Zathrian, First Lanaya, and Elora. He was welcomed into the clan as a boy, grew up, was taught elven magic, and even given vallaslin when he became an adult. When we encounter Aneirin, he is wearing Dalish leather, and refers to the gods; while he says he decided to live out among nature as an adult, he makes it clear it was of his own volition, and that he follows the clan because he feels indebted to them.

 

You're also missing the main point that the 'three mage recton' is inconsistent with how the Dalish were previously portrayed, and it's in complete contradiction with what Merrill explicitly said, as well as her own codex entry.

It's entirely possible there were no more than three at the time he was living with the camp and chose to leave of his own volition so as to not force them to have to exile a mage.

 

Where exactly is the inconsistency in Merril's codex entry entry? She was the third born with magic and so, when the gathering happened, her clan chose to deliver her to another rather than risk another mage being born in the ten years inbetween and them having to force someone out. 

 



#170
LobselVith8

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Merrill was given to the Sabrae clan because at that time there was only one mage, Marethari within it, so no one for her to train up as her replacement, while her original clan had several so could afford to be generous.    There was no suggestion she was given simply because her own clan wanted to get rid of her.

 

That's quite true. In Inquisition, Minaeve talks about how she was immediately exiled as a child from her clan, but this simply didn't happen with Merrill (when she discusses her introduction into the Sabrae Clan), who stayed with Clan Alerion until the Arlathvenn.

 

The context is completely different as well. In Inquisition, Minaeve's story is pretty much intended to discredit the Dalish as an alternative to the Chantry controlled Circles (particularly as her entire backstory and her views are meant to incite sympathy for her Loyalist alignment), while we have the backstory of the mercenary 'Dalish' addressing that she wasn't allowed to remain with her clan because the Dalish don't have templars (which simply doesn't make any sense when you consider that the Dalish are remnants of the Dales, where mages were among the nobility and the priests of the independent kingdom, so there's little reason for the People to share the same views on magic and mages as the Andrastian Chantry).

 

However, Merrill's codex makes it clear that mages are allowed to go to other clans because magic is dying out among the Dalish: "As each generation passes, magic becomes more rare among the Dalish. As the gift dies out, talented children are moved between clans so that every Keeper has a successor, and no clan is in danger of being left without guidance."

 

Prior to the 'three mage recton', the conversation between Merrill and Bethany gives us a glimpse into how the Andrastian treatment of mages is completely alien to Merrill and her cultural perspective. As she tells Bethany, "Any child with the gift of magic is apprenticed to a Keeper... in another clan if there's no need in her own." Merrill continues, "Magic is a gift of the Creators. Why wouldn't we use it? It just seems... wasteful for humans to lock their mages away where they can't do any good."


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