733 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

So you shouldn't face the consequences for being stupid good?

 

Ideally you should get punished for both.

 

Stupidity should always result in someone screwing you over/using you.

[TevinterSupremacist]

There's absolutely no reason - beside your protagonist shield - why they'd keep you alive in preference to Alistair. The game works in part because Alistair is spineless.

And now when we reference the murder knife we're talking about petty, psychopathic evil. Robbing wounded elves? Killing helpless prisoners? That's not done for the sake of stopping the blight. That's done because you get off on causing pain.

There's absolutely nothing the Warden offers that justifies not killing him. It's all plot contrivance.

Alistair is as LG as you can get. The same with Leliana and Wynne. Yet they stand by as you get your torture fetish on because ... reasons? It's nonsense.
 

Alistair being spineless is reason enough. And people might not be sure why they the wardens are needed, but they know they are. Again, you matter. Robbing elves and killing the prisoner has pretty logical reasons. Money. Stuff. It can be done for the sake of stopping the blight -more equipment for you, who need to fight darkspawn, or just because the warden wants to make the most of the war-situation and amass power and wealth for himself. That's not stupid evil territory, that's not even chaotic evil, that's just neutral evil.

 

I wouldn't mind wynne outing me as bm to gregoir. I wanted his head on a pike for a long time. It would have been nice, perhaps along with a chance to have wynne who just watched you saving the circle from demons and annulment repay her debt to you by helping you fight darkspawn and then go your seperate paths since ''muh blood magic''.

[Lebanese Dude]

? Wynne only loses to 3 other trained fighter because the PC is the protagonist?

 

Come on now. She's an abomination sure. But she's hardly invincible.

 

Wynne and Leliana turning on you is stupid to begin with as it makes no sense to me. They can certainly majorly disapprove or at least stop you or outright leave before you do it. Why would they want to kill you as revenge? Killing the last two Grey Wardens in Fereldan with the Blight ravaging the land? Smart.

 

Even while playing evil aligned characters, I never bring them along unless Leliana is hardened.

Wynne and Leliana just peace out in camp and we're all happier for it with our personalities intact.

[Vilegrim]

And you can in DAI, except in much larger scope.

Killing elves in DA? Murder all Wardens in Adamant then exile the rest. Bonus points if Architect dead.

Kill that annoying merchant? Kill that bratty Hinterlands elf or Seras puffy noble.

Grey Wardens annoying you? send them on suicide missions via war table.

Point being the scope of the game has increased. While the Warden threatened to kill random peasants, the Inquisitor can kill plenty more directly or indirectly.

You can get the goddamn Empress of Orlais killed. Need I say more?

 

 

you can fail to save the Empress, massive difference, best illustrated by Batman : I don't have to save you.  Well woopy do.  Let me plan to assassinate Anora and place my puppet on that throne as well, and we'll have a decent start of pragmatism and actually workable medieval politics, throw in a Red Wedding (or Black Feast or w/e it ends up being) to place my picked candidates in charge of noble houses, let me be that guy I am supposed to despise when the Demon shows it to me (instead I was looking at an amazing playthru that could have been, if you removed the idiocy of using demons.)

[Ryzaki]

Actually I'd loved if Wynne outed me as a BM.

 

Even if failing the persuasion check got you a game over screen.

 

But she should've only outed you if you were dumb enough to use it with her in the party. Her magically knowing you're a bloodmage otherwise is stupid. And if I did pass the persuade I was able to shed some belief that she might've been possessed in Gregoir's mind

[Il Divo]

So you shouldn't face the consequences for being stupid good?

 

You should, but stupid evil often tends to stand out more. This is largely because it involves obviously psychopathic/suicidal tendencies that might even give your average evil character pause, just out of pure survival instinct. 

[javeart]

I have to say I don't think it's completely fair to say that an evil PC should end up badly, abandoned by her companions and such. I mean, it should be like that, but a hard-core idealistic PC should also get screwed from time to time for persistently refusing to be pragmatic (Connor's possession being the easiest example). I don't like hardened Leliana and I'd never make her my canon regardless of the consequences, but was it really necessary that you end up also wining an ally if you softened her?

 

I mean, we all benefit from this kind of inconsistencies 

[Il Divo]

I have to say I don't think it's completely fair to say that an evil PC should end up badly, abandoned by her companions and such. I mean, it should be like that, but a hard-core idealistic PC should also get screwed from time to time for persistently refusing being pragmatic (Connor's possession being the easiest example). I don't like hardened Leliana and I'd never make her my canon regarless of the consequences, but was it really necessary that you end up also wining an ally?

 

I mean, we all benefit from this kind of inconsistencies 

 

And that should be a factor. Characters who value their own survival, good or evil, should (potentially) be second-guessing decisions like the desire to leave Connor in Redcliffe while you go recruit Circle aid. 

[Ryzaki]

Honestly the game I want is one where sometimes being good screws you over, sometimes being evil screws you over and being stupid always screws you over.

 

Surely we can agree on that?

[Dr. Rush]

You're not. At least not in DAI. The best, recent evil Bioware game content is either the Sith Inquisitor, or to a lesser extent, the Sith Warrior in SWTOR. 

 

Frankly, the Sith Inquisitor is a great roleplaying story that was designed to give you opportunities to be evil and roleplay an evil character. It is very satisfying, and a specific companion you meet, Khem Val, is by far the best evil companion Bioware has ever designed.

[Lebanese Dude]

Let me plan to assassinate Anora and place my puppet on that throne as well,

 

What?

 

You can't kill Anora and you can certainly headcanon placing Alistair as a puppet if you wish.

[In Exile]

? Wynne only loses to 3 other trained fighter because the PC is the protagonist?

Come on now. She's an abomination sure. But she's hardly invincible.

I misspoke. I mean to say that she's doomed to fail. Everyone is going to fail because you're the protagonist. And since you're the protagonist and the game has to be playable and winnable, you get logical issues with pure evil.

Like Carth, Mission and Jolee all standing by while you committed the vilest deeds.

[ThreeF]

Honestly the game I want is one where sometimes being good screws you over, sometimes being evil screws you over and being stupid always screws you over.

 

Surely we can agree on that?

 

In the Winter Palace quest being good does somewhat screws you over, so being evil (sort of),  you need to be a pragmatist there to have a more smooth future for Orlais (presuming that's your goal)

[Vilegrim]

Fair enough, but that still doesn't address the criticism: it's a perfect demonstration of why evil role-playing options heavily break immersion. It shouldn't be "play a good character and experience a great story" vs. "play an evil character and experience an illogical story". 

 

 

Their was a great story as an evil character tho, Morrigan, Sten and Zhevran (chuck in Shale and Ogrhen for variety)made a perfectly decent and highly amusing party, the blight needs to be stopped, fair enough, but I am going to get rich and powerful, and have as much fun as possible while doing what I must to have a place to use said wealth and power.  I will do what I thing necessary to increase my chances of surviving.. Golems? Yes please. Werewolves? hell yea, desecrate these ashes or sell this childs soul for more power to make life easier and more amusing? Sure why not?

 

Then turn round and have a completly different play though as a highly moral exemplar.

[Aimi]

And that should be a factor. Characters who value their own survival, good or evil, should (potentially) be second-guessing decisions like the desire to leave Connor in Redcliffe while you go recruit Circle aid.

 
A dilemma that could've been eliminated by having the PC, Alistair (for loltemplaring), and two other party members stay in Redcliffe while Unused Party Member X goes to Kinloch Hold to get mage help...but as constructed in the game, yeah, bad things should've happened.
 

Honestly the game I want is one where sometimes being good screws you over, sometimes being evil screws you over and being stupid always screws you over.
 
Surely we can agree on that?

I don't trust BioWare's writers to know what "being stupid" is every time.

[Vilegrim]

What?

 

You can't kill Anora and you can certainly headcanon placing Alistair as a puppet if you wish.

 

 

I meant the Inquisitor.  Would make sense, get me the total support of the military of Fereldan, and no fear of my now massive and hidden empire falling apart after I win.

[JackPoint]

You should, but stupid evil often tends to stand out more. This is largely because it involves obviously psychopathic/suicidal tendencies that might even give your average evil character pause, just out of pure survival instinct. 

You mean like Cole who runs around Skyhold murdering sick folks,? lol..

[Ryzaki]

I misspoke. I mean to say that she's doomed to fail. Everyone is going to fail because you're the protagonist. And since you're the protagonist and the game has to be playable and winnable, you get logical issues with pure evil.

Like Carth, Mission and Jolee all standing by while you committed the vilest deeds.

 

You get the same issues with good with the darker companions.

 

And what exactly was Carth going to do? Bastila would've stopped him (even if it's only because the PC's evil would've influenced her own). Jolee tells you why he's sticking around despite you being a puppy kicker (there's always worse), Mission...I'd say she stays because Zaalbar.

 

In the Winter Palace quest being good does somewhat screws you over, so being evil (sort of),  you need to be a pragmatist there to have a more smooth future for Orlais (presuming that's your goal)

 

Eh. The most "evil" choice really is letting Celene die to further your own goals. And that works fine. (I actually like how all three of them are on the neutral side of the spectrum.) And the get them to work together option can be seen as trying to expand your powerbase. (That said it backfiring is a nice change. Usually the everyone works together is cheesy and always works).

 

 

 
I don't trust BioWare's writers to know what "being stupid" is every time.

 

Ugh yeah that is a good point.

[EmissaryofLies]

You mean like Cole who runs around Skyhold murdering sick folks,? lol..

 

He did not murder anyone; he eased their pain.

[javeart]

I don't trust BioWare's writers to know what "being stupid" is every time.

 

Well, that's true, now that you say it the discussions about what it's rightfully considered stupid would be endless... But it would definitely be nice if being idealistic or evil had some real impact in the story

[ThreeF]

Eh. The most "evil" choice really is letting Celene die to further your own goals. And that works fine. (I actually like how all three of them are on the neutral side of the spectrum.) And the get them to work together option can be seen as trying to expand your powerbase. (That said it backfiring is a nice change. Usually the everyone works together is cheesy and always works).

 

The evil choice is to make Briala, Celene and Gaspard work together for you, that's actually the only clear despotic action you can make as Inquisitor  in the whole game. Orlais needs stability, stability can only be accomplished by having one indisputable ruler, which means you have to kill the competition, so letting even one person go free is a darn stupid move.

[Il Divo]

Their was a great story as an evil character tho, Morrigan, Sten and Zhevran (chuck in Shale and Ogrhen for variety)made a perfectly decent and highly amusing party, the blight needs to be stopped, fair enough, but I am going to get rich and powerful, and have as much fun as possible while doing what I must to have a place to use said wealth and power.  I will do what I thing necessary to increase my chances of surviving.. Golems? Yes please. Werewolves? hell yea, desecrate these ashes or sell this childs soul for more power to make life easier and more amusing? Sure why not?

 

Then turn round and have a completly different play though as a highly moral exemplar.

 

It's a great story until I consider whether characters value their survival in this world. Anvil of the Void is a bad example....there's reasons why a player could argue they think it's the best course of action. Party members may not like it and (consequently) may leave, but it's a debatable point.

 

The problem comes when a lot of these choices frame the PC as something resembling a sadist, not as a pragmatic individual doing the best he can in difficult circumstances. Even if I supported someone's pursuit of wealth and power, I'd question their sanity if I saw them indiscriminately killing people in the streets because "we need money!". 

[Il Divo]

You mean like Cole who runs around Skyhold murdering sick folks,? lol..

 

Yeah, that gave my character pause too, although even there at least Cole thinks he putting these people out of their misery. 

 

It still might lead to conflict, but the biggest eye-brow raising evil decisions often portray the character as a Sadist or at least unaware of potential consequences. 

[JackPoint]

Off topic,. just watched Starship troopers 3, and damn Hauser as a bloody good suntan, He's Black and 7ft tall

[Chashan]

There was nothing impeccable about how Bioware handled evil in KotOR. No matter how desperate we might want to imagine the Jedi Council to be in finding the Star Forge, it's absolutely idiotic that they didn't see everything going to hell, given the actions your character can take along the way. 

 

Might be a result of nauseatingly self-righteous do-gooders trying to dabble in things they usually make a point of condemning their enemies for, all the while not having a good damn clue what they are doing.

 

Honestly, getting to know that this sort of pricks were messing with the PC made turning on them that much more satisfying.

 

 

It's also kind of insane that your sole oversight in this quest is a random Padawan with very serious pride issues. This is the bane of galactic civilization and you're giving her leash to...an apprentice. Perfect! NOTHING COULD POSSIBLY GO WRONG.

 

A 'random Padawan' noted for her exceptional ability. Aside from that, why she wasn't already promoted for bringing that selfsame 'bane of galactic civilization' down before is indeed problematic. Yet even so, she is established as not just plain-gaoler-jane.

 

 

To be blunt, I was going into that game first time around not that long ago, not having much of any direct connection with the SW-universe at large. Against my expectation, I was pleasantly surprised at how the story could unfold in this way.