115 réponses à ce sujet

[SongstressKitsune]

Please link a video with this explanation.

While I can't find a video - and it is rather a long sequence - please refer to the wiki entry for Here Lies the Abyss.

 

Spoiler

The specific quote from there is "The Nightmare was in fact the origin of the false Calling the Grey Wardens experienced."

[b10d1v]

Well the dragon at the end was no arch demon -they were hard to kill, but that one is a piece of cake nor does it talk -even if the ending is a bit glitched.  I remember some talk of cory deceiving the old gods -could that be an exhausted Dumat?  Cory has sucked the life out of Dumat until its hardly a puppy?

[Winged Silver]

Just out of curiosity, is there anywhere we can look to get an overview of the rules of magic in the DA universe? I don't have a solid grasp of what rules mages and whatnot have to follow (if any? I assume there's got to be a few), but having that at our disposal may be helpful towards separating what makes sense in the DA universe and what doesn't, given that so far it's all very much "he's powerful so he does stuff (maybe we'll explain it later who knows)"

 

On that note, it would be nice to see if a more detailed explanation as to how Corypheus did his stuff was presented at some time. Morrigan seems to have an idea (given that she says she can match the dragon), but she never explains it to our Inquisitors  

[Suledin]

Just out of curiosity, is there anywhere we can look to get an overview of the rules of magic in the DA universe? I don't have a solid grasp of what rules mages and whatnot have to follow (if any? I assume there's got to be a few), but having that at our disposal may be helpful towards separating what makes sense in the DA universe and what doesn't, given that so far it's all very much "he's powerful so he does stuff (maybe we'll explain it later who knows)"

 

On that note, it would be nice to see if a more detailed explanation as to how Corypheus did his stuff was presented at some time. Morrigan seems to have an idea (given that she says she can match the dragon), but she never explains it to our Inquisitors

There're a few rules. But it's from DA: O and DA: 2 codex entry. Here you go my dear http://dragonage.wik..._Rules_of_Magic

[Winged Silver]

There're a few rules. But it's from DA: O and DA: 2 codex entry. Here you go my dear http://dragonage.wik..._Rules_of_Magic

 

Thank you! I shall take a look now

[Zanallen]

Archdemons control darkspawn through the Song. The Song is something unique to Old Gods. It calls to the darkspawn, drawing them to where the Old Gods slumber. Cory wasn't an Old God. Any control that he has over darkspawn would be limited like that of the Architect. As such, despite having the ability to body jump, an ability not unique to archdemons in the first place considering Flemeth, Cory does not have the ability to start a Blight on his own.

[lichg]

1) the calling was false. Been stated since first mentioned by stroud or his replacers. Terror demon confirms later.

2).also been stated that his body jumping ability is thanks to his pet dragon. You kill the dragon and he is mortal again.

3) cory first used that ability ingame in the dlc. Back then he had none. Rather than making excuses for the writers im willing to risk and say its just a plot hole.


If he always had this ability then making a dragon and making it hold it for him is dumb. I dont care how much pride he has or how full of himself he actually is, its dumb.

killing the dragon briefly disrupting his ability is also quite convenient.and baseless. And dumb on his part. If he put a part of him, a part of his soul in that dragon then the safer thing would be what flemeth did, putting it in a random item. making him double immortal!

Lets face it, either he had it all along but made a stupid choice and lost it or he never had it until he made the dragon and then his first survival makes no sense.



HOWEVER, he was locked for a reason. He couldnt be killed. So he had it b4. So he is just dumb.

Edit: also worthy of note is that neither cory or his dragon are an AD.
Cory was locked away since he couldnt be killed. Not even by grey wardens! Even an AD can be killed by them so i assume its something else. He was the high priest of dumat or something and learned magic under him so if its a form of magic i wohld assume an arch demon could use it too but they dont. It seems like an improved version of their ability until inquisition came.
SOOoooo... i dont know.

[C0uncil0rTev0s]

1) the calling was false. Been stated since first mentioned by stroud or his replacers. Terror demon confirms later.

2).also been stated that his body jumping ability is thanks to his pet dragon. You kill the dragon and he is mortal again.

3) cory first used that ability ingame in the dlc. Back then he had none. Rather than making excuses for the writers im willing to risk and say its just a plot hole.


If he always had this ability then making a dragon and making it hold it for him is dumb. I dont care how much pride he has or how full of himself he actually is, its dumb.

killing the dragon briefly disrupting his ability is also quite convenient.and baseless. And dumb on his part. If he put a part of him, a part of his soul in that dragon then the safer thing would be what flemeth did, putting it in a random item. making him double immortal!

Lets face it, either he had it all along but made a stupid choice and lost it or he never had it until he made the dragon and then his first survival makes no sense.



HOWEVER, he was locked for a reason. He couldnt be killed. So he had it b4. So he is just dumb.

Edit: also worthy of note is that neither cory or his dragon are an AD.
Cory was locked away since he couldnt be killed. Not even by grey wardens! Even an AD can be killed by them so i assume its something else. He was the high priest of dumat or something and learned magic under him so if its a form of magic i wohld assume an arch demon could use it too but they dont. It seems like an improved version of their ability until inquisition came.
SOOoooo... i dont know.

 

Okay let's summarize.

The only logical reason for all this bullshit to happen is UBERPOWAH MAGIC we don't know a hint of. Even after three games in this series and tons of lore.

 

Well, if it is the reason all I can do is shake my head in overhelming disgust. Dragon Age story - resulting in this lame ****?

FFS, hire some writers, Bioware.

[lichg]

Correct. At best its unknown magic. At worst its the writers making a mistake or just them being unaware of all the existing lore. Who knows.

DA2 gave us the most broken magic of all that enables them to do whatever they want with the story. As long as you put a part of your soul in something you can be ressurected. And its not even the same magic!

Cory uses something related to the taint, and its not very consistent about the details behind it.
It would seem he has even more power than an AD!
He has the power to control grey wardens. He is immune to death by grey wardens. Not only that but he can use grey wardens to jump bodies.
He can even do stuff with the world around him in his sleep like an AD and mess with the minds of the tainted like the grey wardens.
he can even teach others to somewhat manipulate the wardens.

However, he is not a true AD. He doesnt control the darkspawn and he cant make a real calling.
Honestly i dont know what to make of him... he gets stronger and weaker as the plot sees fit.

[Kantr]

The dragon boosts his ability gives him a near infinite range as he's split his soul. Killing it returns his soul to him making him vulnerable as it disrupts his jumping ability. We're never told what his normal range is and until Hawke came along only a few GW knew about him. So no-one tainted has tried to kill him.

 

That's why he was locked up in the first place, he can influence wardens and can't be killed. Somehow he circumvents the rule that possession must be agreed upon. Maybe because he has a human soul?

[C0uncil0rTev0s]

The dragon boosts his ability gives him a near infinite range as he's split his soul. Killing it returns his soul to him making him vulnerable as it disrupts his jumping ability. We're never told what his normal range is and until Hawke came along only a few GW knew about him. So no-one tainted has tried to kill him.

 

That's why he was locked up in the first place, he can influence wardens and can't be killed. Somehow he circumvents the rule that possession must be agreed upon. Maybe because he has a human soul?

 

Could you define that 'normal range' in meters (or feet in UK case) please?  Because I don't recall such a dialogue.

As for the rest - **** it, I don't care anymore about HOW he jumps.

I just want to know how it comes he isn't an AD if he can control the Blight (Erimond line) and is referred to as AD by Morrigan (after Mythal touch with the knowledge ab how to defeat him).

[Kantr]

I just said we don't know what his non-dragon body jumping range is.

 

Morrigan is talking about the dragon (which isn't a AD just a normal one with red lyirum). As for Erimond . He is a minion 

[C0uncil0rTev0s]

I just said we don't know what his non-dragon body jumping range is.

 

Morrigan is talking about the dragon (which isn't a AD just a normal one with red lyirum). As for Erimond . He is a minion 

 

You sound so familiar. Am I speaking to you in Twitter right now?

[lichg]

he was imprisoned in a grey warden prison since who knows when.. interrogating him didnt work but they could still kill him as i doubt his mind control works in an instant.

Regardless, its all speculations and convenient twists.

[Kalshane]

I just finished DA:I and then played Legacy for the first time this weekend.

 

At the end of Legacy, it's pretty clear in retrospect that Corypheus has possessed Larius.  It's safe to assume he doesn't have to do the crazy explode the body into his original form effect if he doesn't want to. Having just had his butt handed to him by Hawke, I imagine he didn't want to try for round 2 when he could just walk out the door in Larius' body and get his bearings in this new era he just woke up in. It's also possible (though this is pure speculation) that his powers are limited when he remains in the form of the host, which is why he immediately does the full body-burst in the Temple of Mythal.

 

As for people asking about him shapeshifting, why would be it so odd that he could revert to the form of Larius, if necessary? While Morrigan discounts changing oneself into another human, as nothing would be learned from it, reverting a possessed body back to its original form seems to be something different. The mage wouldn't be trying to become someone else, but rather let the body they're inhabiting return to its natural state. It's possible that post-Temple of Mythal, Corypheus could have transformed into that random Warden redshirt if he wished.

 

As for where the bits of metal and other aspects of his form come from, how the heck does a hurlock of whatever suddenly become a dragon if possessed by an archdemon? It's just the way the magic works. Considering I doubt the metal embedded in him has any specific function and is just part of his character design, I'm willing to just waive this off as artistic license.

 

It is never stated in DA:I that Corypheus needs his mock-archdemon to perform the body swap. Instead, what's stated that his investing his power into the dragon has left him vulnerable, should it be slain. Was this a dumb move on his part? Yes. But as others have mentioned, Corypheus wants to become a god. That requires quite a bit of ego (to put it mildly). The fact that he feels like he should have a servant in the image of one of the Old Gods he previously followed makes a sort of twisted sense, in that respect.

[lichg]

Err.. im pretty sure the "archdemon" is the key behind his body transfer ability.if im wrong ill accept it. Its still dumb and convenient.
but he isnt all that vulnurable after making his dragon. He was, however, after slaying it.

Convenient magic logic. Convenient dumb move by cory. Do we actually get any sort of info about the dragon? After the temple of mythal morigan says one line about it and then we move to the final battle and suddenly we fight it and see its name "red lyrium dragon". Thats the first time i learned of his name (if you dont count spoilers). Do we KNOW cory himself made it? Do we KNOW how much power he invested in it? Do we KNOW if he even put a part of him in it?

could very well be a high dragon corrupted by cory's servents.

[Akka le Vil]

Perfectly put, I couldn't say it better.

 

So you see?

 

1. If Cory posesses a soul that can travel between vessels, an essence, and is tainted, he has to become an archdemon (just not in a dragon form) and cause a Blight.

 

Sorry, I may have missed something, but I don't see the reasoning here. What you say is :

 

- AD possess a soul which can travel between vessels.

- AD cause a Blight.

- Corypheus possesses a soul which can travel between vessels.

 

=> hence Corypheus should cause a Blight.

 

That just sounds like the by-example sophistry :

 

- Humans are animals.

- A cat is an animal.

- Socrates is human.

 

=> Socrates is a cat.

 

Obviously, doesn't compute. It's not because two entities share one common point that they share ALL common points.

Darkspawn are attracted to Old Gods, and corrupted Old Gods cause a Blight. Corypheus is NOT an Old God, but "simply" a Darkspawn with a soul.

From this, one possibility might be that the ability to switch bodies comes from being a Darkspawn with a soul, and causing a Blight comes from being a corrupted Old God, without either having a relation to the other.

[Kalshane]

We are told after the Well of Sorrows that Corypheus has invested part of his power into the dragon, and killing it will make him vulnerable and disrupt his ability to body-hop. At no point are we told that he actually needs the dragon to hop bodies.

 

As for the name of the dragon, it's a description, more than anything else. It's a dragon with red lyrium shards sticking out of it that uses red lyrium as a breath weapon. Therefore, Red Lyrium Dragon.

[robertthebard]

Perfectly put, I couldn't say it better.
 
So you see?
 
1. If Cory posesses a soul that can travel between vessels, an essence, and is tainted, he has to become an archdemon (just not in a dragon form) and cause a Blight.
 
One point for it:
It explains how Cory travelled to Larius body and used it as a vessel.
 
Three points against it:
If Cory has a soul that can travel between bodies and he is surely tainted he has to become an archdemon and start a Blight. We know that there is no Blight in Dragon Age: Inquisition, so that can't be true.
If Cory has a soul that can travel between bodies in a traditional AD way (means he requires taint in a new host) why wasn't he killed by Wardens of the Old? He was imprisoned for a purpose, as Wardens of the Old couldn't kill him.
If Cory has a soul that can travel between bodies in the way other than AD does (means doesn't require taint in a new host, like the Elvish Gods) how could he die and not transfer into Inquisitor or any of his party members after his final battle?
 
2. If Cory does not posess a soul that can travel between vessels, an essence, and is tainted, he couldn't use Larius as a vessel.
 
Two points for it:
It perfectly fits all the lore (apart from the whole DA2 body transition).
It explains why Cory has limited transition abilities.
Let's say he doesn't have an essence, but he might have his human soul. So he breaks it into parts like Lord Voldemort/Tom Riddle and uses those parts to resurrect himself in case of emergency. And a dragon here could be like Nagini, the closest and the most valuable of horcruxes.
Puzzle comes together if you add taint thing into it. Like the taint is a living thing (Bianca line), and can be used to set up a link between Cory and the vessel (horcrux).
 
One point against it:
It fails to explain how Cory survived after the Hawke encounter, as there is no sense in Laruis becoming a horcrux for Cory (If Larius is a horcrux for Cory then why Cory was even imprisoned? Just transfer to the Larius when you get an occasion and walk away unnoticed, as Cory retained his conciosness in prison).
 
Both ways to see it are equally BS and mutually exclude each other.

Riddle me this: If a tainted creature with a soul must become an Archdemon, how come Wardens aren't Archdemons? They are, at the end of the day, tainted creatures with souls.

In Legacy, Cory is bound via blood magic to his "cell". His body is alive, if he, or an archdemon, could transfer their souls at will, then there would be no Thedas, because Dumat would have never allowed himself to be killed. While we're discussing plot points, let's not forget that there was a barrier that prevented exit once you passed through it. The only way out was to "defeat" Cory so Hawke could escape the prison. So even if we give Cory an ability to transfer at will, where's he going to go?

Add to this that you're assuming Cory must be an Archdemon, a position that I don't quite understand, since we know, as do you, that he wasn't a Old God, but was a Magister, you're assigning his ability to transfer his soul to be identical to the way an Archdemon does it. The fact is, we really have no idea how it works. Since we have seen that Spirit possession allows the primary personality to remain intact, ie Wynne and Anders for prime examples, who's to say it doesn't work in the same way?

You also seem to predicate a lot of this on the Old Gods just being High Dragons, from what I can see, despite the fact that the Old Gods are male dragons that can fly. (I remember reading this somewhere, but now can't seem to find it, so Citation Needed) It is, however, worth mentioning that the Old Gods aren't just any dragon, but are very specific creatures. Source

Male dragons never develop into the winged monsters of myth. Their forelegs grow only vestigial spurs where wing membranes would be in female dragons.

Source

It would seem that, in order to run with your plot hole, we're going to have to create several other plot holes to the existing lore. The problem here is that creating more plot holes to justify a plot hole doesn't work. Gaps in our knowledge do not equate to a plot hole, they're just gaps in our knowledge.

[Weskerr]

Isn't Corypheus banished to the fade in the end and not killed? If so, that would explain why he didn't jump bodies.

[C0uncil0rTev0s]

You also seem to predicate a lot of this on the Old Gods just being High Dragons, from what I can see, despite the fact that the Old Gods are male dragons that can fly. (I remember reading this somewhere, but now can't seem to find it, so Citation Needed) It is, however, worth mentioning that the Old Gods aren't just any dragon, but are very specific creatures. Source


Source

It would seem that, in order to run with your plot hole, we're going to have to create several other plot holes to the existing lore. The problem here is that creating more plot holes to justify a plot hole doesn't work. Gaps in our knowledge do not equate to a plot hole, they're just gaps in our knowledge.

Well, thanks for a feedback. I'm happy you've found Dragon Age Wikia but I'm somewhat sad you didn't look here:
http://dragonage.wik...y:_The_Old_Gods
http://dragonage.wik...m/wiki/Old_Gods

That will justify the part about male/female dragons I think.

 

As for the rest let's look a bit back, alright?
http://forum.bioware...3#entry18409434
http://forum.bioware...2#entry18400379

So now there's this:
1. In the game there are multiple references to which Cory is either AD or posesses powers that are believed to be only usable by AD.

1a. Morrigan mentions it if she gets Well of Sorrows, after being touched by Mythal/Flemeth (part of the main plot)

1b. Tevinter magister Erimond says that Cory can control the Blight in a part of main plot.

2. However intelligent or high-developed darkspawn can be, no one could transfer their bodies on death. Even the Mother. Even the Architect.

2a. The only type of darkspawn that can transfer its soul into new body is believed to be AD. This is dead-binded with Soul of the Old God. Explained by Morrigan in DA:O.

2b. Cory can transfer his soul into new body just as AD can. So either he is AD or he is brand new big bad maddafaka with awesome power beyond all expectations.

3. In the game there are multiple references to facts that counter Cory = AD thesis.

3a. Few times we are said that we don't face a Blight.

3b. One of the developers said that Kieran tells that he isn't at the war table. However I've never encountered that and can't justify.

 

So I made my peace with all this bullshit on three lines:

 

1. It looks like a huge part of content was cut just before the release, so developers had to hastly cover evidences to that plot line.

1a. It explains why main story is that short.

1b. It explains why we haven't sixth Blight here and Cory/his dragon are called AD by Morrigan.

1c. It explains why Erimond says his master controls the Blight.

1d. It explains why we have so many complicated yet disconnected from each other darkspawn quests. Remnants of the former quest line.

 

2. Cory in this resulting DA:I isn't designed as AD. Plot is changed, just as it was in ME2 and ME3. We have to live with it. Remnants of the old story will be eventually cut.

 

3. As he isn't designed now as AD and neither his dragon is, all his "supermegauber powahs" are just left unexplained. Hopefully developers will come with something in future DLCs.

[C0uncil0rTev0s]

Riddle me this: If a tainted creature with a soul must become an Archdemon, how come Wardens aren't Archdemons? They are, at the end of the day, tainted creatures with souls.

In Legacy, Cory is bound via blood magic to his "cell". His body is alive, if he, or an archdemon, could transfer their souls at will, then there would be no Thedas, because Dumat would have never allowed himself to be killed. While we're discussing plot points, let's not forget that there was a barrier that prevented exit once you passed through it. The only way out was to "defeat" Cory so Hawke could escape the prison. So even if we give Cory an ability to transfer at will, where's he going to go?

Add to this that you're assuming Cory must be an Archdemon, a position that I don't quite understand, since we know, as do you, that he wasn't a Old God, but was a Magister, you're assigning his ability to transfer his soul to be identical to the way an Archdemon does it. The fact is, we really have no idea how it works. Since we have seen that Spirit possession allows the primary personality to remain intact, ie Wynne and Anders for prime examples, who's to say it doesn't work in the same way?

You also seem to predicate a lot of this on the Old Gods just being High Dragons, from what I can see, despite the fact that the Old Gods are male dragons that can fly. (I remember reading this somewhere, but now can't seem to find it, so Citation Needed) It is, however, worth mentioning that the Old Gods aren't just any dragon, but are very specific creatures. Source


Source

It would seem that, in order to run with your plot hole, we're going to have to create several other plot holes to the existing lore. The problem here is that creating more plot holes to justify a plot hole doesn't work. Gaps in our knowledge do not equate to a plot hole, they're just gaps in our knowledge.

And yes, please, learn to read more carefully, please.

 

I've said that I'm not speaking of a soul of anything - human, halla, or something that just resides inside the host. I'm speaking of an essence - that actually CAN travel to some external host, other than the natural one.

For now only ones that undoubtedly posess essences are Old Gods and Elven Gods. Can be same.

[robertthebard]

And yes, please, learn to read more carefully, please.
 
I've said that I'm not speaking of a soul of anything - human, halla, or something that just resides inside the host. I'm speaking of an essence - that actually CAN travel to some external host, other than the natural one.
For now only ones that undoubtedly posess essences are Old Gods and Elven Gods. Can be same.

Actually, Riordan tells us that the reason the AD can transfer to darkspawn is because they are soulless. Which is also, coincidentally, the reason they can't survive being transferred into a Warden, since the Warden has a soul. I covered this already, in the post that you quoted. You see, what you're calling an essence, the game actually refers to as a soul. Since we're discussing what you view as a plot hole, we must use the in game terminology, and explanations, otherwise, we are, as I pointed out, creating more plot holes to justify a plot hole. That's not how this works, it's not how any of this works. We have to take all the information we're provided, and then go from there. We can't just redefine something because it doesn't fit what we're trying to prove as presented. If we have to do that, then there's something wrong with what we're trying to present, not with what we're given.

Regarding the links to the Old Gods, I did find those. I just didn't see where gender of the Old Gods was referenced. In fact, one of the links provided that says "Source" calls back the same link. The thing is, my other point there, apart from gender, was that the Old Gods aren't just regular dragons. If that were the case, then the Fereldan Frostback could become an archdemon. The hole in your plot hole is that the Old Gods are stated, in the very link you provided, to be more than just dragons. The Old Gods are dragons like red lyrium is lyrium. The only way your plot hole works is if we disregard everything we already know to explain something that we never really gain any real insight into, how the soul transfer works in the first place. It's obvious, to me, that it doesn't work in the same manner as the Archdemon's trick, since Larius/Janeka and Cory survive, and then we actually witness it happen on the way to the Well of Sorrows, after Cory gets nuked on the bridge.

It's likely that Cory's dragon functions in much the same way as Flemeth's amulet in DA 2. He "stores" a part of himself in the dragon so that his resurrection is possible should his current physical form be destroyed. While it's speculation, it's stated that this is possible, in game, by Morrigan. So, if we extrapolate from what we know, if HoF kills Flemeth, and Hawke destroys the amulet, Flemeth is done for, maybe. Morrigan even eludes to this possibility in Origins, that killing Flemeth may not even really kill her, or that she cannot even be killed. So we have actually seen this same type of mechanic in action, well before we ever met Cory to begin with.

[Kalshane]

Actually, have we received any confirmation The Architect stays dead if he's slain by the Warden-Commander in Awakenings? For all we know, he could be could be an original Darkspawn Magister just like Corypheus and thus possess the same body-hopping ability.

 

Based on some of the codex entries in DA:I and some of the conversation in the game, it seems likely at least some of the original Magister Darkspawn are still running around beyond Corypheus.

[C0uncil0rTev0s]

that the Old Gods aren't just regular dragons.

Original post: "Archdemon is basically an unusual sleeping dragon" - does the word 'unusual' mean anything to you? I know this is some complicated lexicon you might not be used to, but still.

 

The Old Gods are dragons like red lyrium is lyrium.

Thank you, but you're ****** wrong in here.

You see, Bianca refers to red lyrium as a common lyrium tainted by Blight. However you rightfully stated before, ADs aren't just regular dragons cursed with a Blight.

 

He "stores" a part of himself in the dragon so that his resurrection is possible should his current physical form be destroyed.

And this **** doesn't mean anything as Cory can transfer his soul, essence, whatever you call it to any tainted creature. He doesn't need a dragon for it.

 

So we have actually seen this same type of mechanic in action, well before we ever met Cory to begin with.

And here you suggest that Cory has the same powers that the Mythal posesses. Yeah. Mortal human Magister and the immortal Goddess of Elves.

 

*sigh*

 

Sorry.

You can't read what I write here. Either you don't know the words I use or you're somewhat short-sighted without glasses.

You can't read/listen what ingame characters state in dialogues.

You can't watch videos I've attached to my posts. Just saying - ask someone close to you to find the play button, please, it isn't that hard.

You fail to build your thoughts into a structure, so you lean back to comparing incomparable things.

 

I'm really, terribly sorry but I can't do anything for you at this point.