115 réponses à ce sujet

[robertthebard]

that the Old Gods aren't just regular dragons.
Original post: "Archdemon is basically an unusual sleeping dragon" - does the word 'unusual' mean anything to you? I know this is some complicated lexicon you might not be used to, but still.
 
The Old Gods are dragons like red lyrium is lyrium.
Thank you, but you're ****** wrong in here.
You see, Bianca refers to red lyrium as a common lyrium tainted by Blight. However you rightfully stated before, ADs aren't just regular dragons cursed with a Blight.
 
He "stores" a part of himself in the dragon so that his resurrection is possible should his current physical form be destroyed.
And this **** doesn't mean anything as Cory can transfer his soul, essence, whatever you call it to any tainted creature. He doesn't need a dragon for it.
 
So we have actually seen this same type of mechanic in action, well before we ever met Cory to begin with.
And here you suggest that Cory has the same powers that the Mythal posesses. Yeah. Mortal human Magister and the immortal Goddess of Elves.
 
*sigh*
 
Sorry.
You can't read what I write here. Either you don't know the words I use or you're somewhat short-sighted without glasses.
You can't read/listen what ingame characters state in dialogues.
You can't watch videos I've attached to my posts. Just saying - ask someone close to you to find the play button, please, it isn't that hard.
You fail to build your thoughts into a structure, so you lean back to comparing incomparable things.
 
I'm really, terribly sorry but I can't do anything for you at this point.

Actually, the shortsighted one here is you, and shortsighted is probably not the right concept here. What I'm looking for is tunnel vision. You're so obsessed with finding something wrong, that all of the lore that we've been handed, including gaps in said lore, is irrelevant. You see, the corruption of an Old God doesn't include a soul, in any of the lore we've been bandying about here. It is simply the Blight's corruption. This means that, contrary to what you seem to think, that the "dragon" that the darkspawn find and corrupt already has it's soul. What was the goal of the DR again? To capture the soul of an Old God, right? Do I need to dig up some entries for that as well?

What part of "having the soul of an Old God" means that it's just a dragon? Sorry, but the provided lore does not support your plot hole. We have to convolute all the existing lore to make it work, therefore, there's something wrong with your theory. The problem is, you're basing a lot of it off of assumptions that are erroneous, and documented as such in game, Origins, even, and yet you persist.

As we can see from the way in which you went about "quoting" me this time, you're prone to ignore anything that doesn't allow your theory to work, including information from one of your main sources, Morrigan. Morrigan is the one that speculates that that's he does with the dragon, not me. There's no need for me to twist, or ignore in game information to support my claim, it's not my claim, but hers.

Oh, btw, the fact that he can body jump is established in game, and from you. This means that he is immortal, since he cannot be killed. He's also at least 1,000 years old as of the events of Legacy. He has also been inside the Black City, according to what he says and what the Chantry says. But since you seem to have some kind of insight I'm lacking, what is the nature of his corruption? What powers does he have specifically because of it? Is Flemeth's trick exclusive to her? Is Solas using a similar tactic? You want to have scored some major point here, but you're falling flat. Information from the previous two games, along with information from this game indicate that his power isn't like an AD, since he can do it w/out dying, even if the body has a soul, hence his Grey Warden emergency reserve bodies.

[C0uncil0rTev0s]

Actually, the shortsighted one here is you, and shortsighted is probably not the right concept here. What I'm looking for is tunnel vision. You're so obsessed with finding something wrong, that all of the lore that we've been handed, including gaps in said lore, is irrelevant. You see, the corruption of an Old God doesn't include a soul, in any of the lore we've been bandying about here. It is simply the Blight's corruption. This means that, contrary to what you seem to think, that the "dragon" that the darkspawn find and corrupt already has it's soul. What was the goal of the DR again? To capture the soul of an Old God, right? Do I need to dig up some entries for that as well?

What part of "having the soul of an Old God" means that it's just a dragon? Sorry, but the provided lore does not support your plot hole. We have to convolute all the existing lore to make it work, therefore, there's something wrong with your theory. The problem is, you're basing a lot of it off of assumptions that are erroneous, and documented as such in game, Origins, even, and yet you persist.

As we can see from the way in which you went about "quoting" me this time, you're prone to ignore anything that doesn't allow your theory to work, including information from one of your main sources, Morrigan. Morrigan is the one that speculates that that's he does with the dragon, not me. There's no need for me to twist, or ignore in game information to support my claim, it's not my claim, but hers.

Oh, btw, the fact that he can body jump is established in game, and from you. This means that he is immortal, since he cannot be killed. He's also at least 1,000 years old as of the events of Legacy. He has also been inside the Black City, according to what he says and what the Chantry says. But since you seem to have some kind of insight I'm lacking, what is the nature of his corruption? What powers does he have specifically because of it? Is Flemeth's trick exclusive to her? Is Solas using a similar tactic? You want to have scored some major point here, but you're falling flat. Information from the previous two games, along with information from this game indicate that his power isn't like an AD, since he can do it w/out dying, even if the body has a soul, hence his Grey Warden emergency reserve bodies.

 

So much personal offenses without any actual point. Well, it's getting pretty cheap pretty fast. Can I ask you not to post here anymore and just write me personal messages? Thank you.

[AppalachianApex]

I was never super clear on why exactly he needed to sacrifice someone to unlock that orb's power, or why exactly that person just had to be the Divine, OR why exactly he needed to sacrifice the divine right smack in the middle of the Mage/Templar peace talks with an army surrounding him. :/

Also, if he could just waltz right back over to the breach and open it right back up... why exactly didn't he do that, you know, in the first place? :/ :/ :/

[robertthebard]

So much personal offenses without any actual point. Well, it's getting pretty cheap pretty fast. Can I ask you not to post here anymore and just write me personal messages? Thank you.

Yeah, because we can't have any actual information clogging your plot hole? No, I won't be messaging you. You are already accusing me of getting personal while I'm providing evidence that contradicts your theory. I'm not going to have you able to send my private correspondence to Mods, claiming I'm taunting you or something, something that I have already been banned for here. Read the information you linked to dispute what I've said about the dragons and archdemons, and you'll see you have a problem with your theory. I know I did read it, that's why I can see the problems with your theory.

[Aren]

We know the darkspawn proper - hurlocks, genlocks, shrieks and ogres - don't have a soul 

Darkspawns have a souls, their will is weak, but they are not soulless, A darkspawn can become a disciple, the Architect can  awake them , however he cannot build souls for them, so every creatures have a soul in the dragon age Universe.

[Aren]

It's specifically stated in the game that the dragon is not an Archdemon. Or at least it is if you drink from the well. People continue to refer to it as "Corypheus's Archdemon" or "the Archdemon" but I think that's just in-character shorthand because it looks like one.

 

My theory is that Corypheus happens to share the Archdemon's body-hop ability because he is one of the first Darkspawn and is an Awakened one/still remembers all his magic. The dragon is not in some way the key to his immortality but it is the key to his death - killing it weakened him enough that he could no longer body hop and there was no one tainted aorund for him to hop to.

 

The lack of a Blight has nothing to do with anything because neither Corypheus nor his dragon are an Archdemon; neither of them can create the Blight. Corypheus just happens to share an ability with one.

 

You've created a false bit of logic where ability to body hop MUST necessarily = archdemon which therefore MUST = a Blight and that is not the case.

This not explain the statement "soul that cannot be forced upon the unwilling" since Corypheus can take a body with a soul even without consent .Corypheus is not a fool if the Red lyrium dragon made him vulnerable then why he have decided to create him?

 

This is a Giant Plot Hole....

[x0evenstar0x]

I personally think that Riordan was only half right when he said that the reason thr Archdemon is permanently killed by a Grey Warden is purely because the GW has a soul. Given that we learn from Flemythal that a soul cannot be transferred to the unwilling, I think it has more to do with the fact that Grey Wardens have a strong enough will to destroy the Archdemon soul instead of accepting it. Due to the nature of their Joining they are ready and willing to make the ultimate sacrifice in order to save Thedas from the Blight.

So, this might explain why Corypheus, who has similar abilities to the blighted Archdemons, is able to jump to Larius/Janeka. Although Larius was a Grey Warden, his mind has been weakened from years of the Taint and he is already mostly a ghoul. He may not have had the strength/will to battle Corypheus' possession. Janeka strikes me as the a weak and power-hungry type.

As for the Red Lyrium Dragon, perhaps he needed it close in case he was killed when there *wasn't* anyone or anything with the Taint around since he can only transfer his essence to other tainted creatures. Also, he was deliberately mocking the Old Gods. He wanted to be a god himself, and so it suited the image he was trying to project to have a dragon aspect of himself. I think that the Old Gods and the elven gods are one and the same or at least similar. The codexes mention that only the elven gods took the form of a dragon, and this is proven with Mythal. So, yeah, it makes him seem more powerful and godlike and thus suits his goals.

[X Equestris]

I was never super clear on why exactly he needed to sacrifice someone to unlock that orb's power, or why exactly that person just had to be the Divine, OR why exactly he needed to sacrifice the divine right smack in the middle of the Mage/Templar peace talks with an army surrounding him. :/
Also, if he could just waltz right back over to the breach and open it right back up... why exactly didn't he do that, you know, in the first place? :/ :/ :/

It didn't have to be the Divine, she was simply convenient. It makes a symbolic statement, and has the practical benefit of throwing the Chantry, one of the only organizations that could pose a threat to his plans, into temporary disarray. This also plays a role in the timing: killing her at the Conclave ensures there will be no peace between mages and templars, and let's Cory's agents subvert both groups to add to his army.

As for the Breach, it was an unintended consequence of the ritual being interrupted. Cory probably didn't want a giant hole in the sky to begin with. It's not in his interests to utterly wreck the world he wants to rule over. Him opening it up at the end is the proverbial flip of the game board: if he can't become a god, then he's going to take the world down with him.

[Koneko Koji]

Just my personal musings, but I took note of Varric telling my Inquisitor that Cory didn't really know who or what he was - I like to think that perhaps he's NOT the original magister that entered the fade, but a 'spirit / demon' like Cole who took on his persona, and can transport himself between bodies, which we already have as a cannon precident in the books with Wynne & Evangeline.

 

As for the Dragon - they say it's a corrupted dragon that he's invested part of himself in to be like an old God, so it's not a true arch demon - which means it can't call to the Darkspawn and cause a Blight.

[Chrissamuel]

Interesting thought regarding Corypheus and the other six magisters assuming that The Architect was indeed one. The Architect admits that he awakened Urthemiel so is it possible that the other five magisters are alive but trapped like Corypheus was asleep and when they awaken possibly after a Blight ends they spend years seeking the Old God they were a priest of and taint it making it an archdemon? If so could the Blights be ended by a dreamer like Feynirel hunt them in the Fade and kill them before they can awaken?

[Dai Grepher]

Corypheus simply used blood magic and the taint to transfer to a blighted host. Theoretically, he could have simply kept doing this.

 

HOWEVER...

 

Corypheus needed a dragon to inspire awe in people and to devastate any who opposed him.

 

And so he went out and tainted a high dragon with his taint. He also exposed it to red lyrium. Thus, the Red Eyes Black Dragon. Er... Red Lyrium Dragon.

 

He then placed part of his own power in the dragon. This way, both he and the dragon could resurrect should either one of them be killed. We see this happen in the game. Warden-Commander Clarel kills the Red Lyrium Dragon at Adamant, but it eventually comes back because Corypheus was in a safe place. Thus it resurrected because he was still alive. Conversely, we saw Corypheus get obliterated at the temple. He resurrected in the body of a nearby Grey Warden because his dragon was alive and well.

 

So, the key to killing them both, according to the Well of Sorrows, was to kill the dragon first, and then kill Corypheus soon afterward. The game states that once the dragon is killed, the resurrection power is lost for Corypheus temporarily. I theorize that this is because he split his own resurrection power, and thus it is not as effective for him anymore. If the dragon dies, then enters the process of using the power to resurrect itself, which takes longer for it than Corypheus. Thus, Corypheus cannot use the power while the dragon is using it. If Corypheus dies while the dragon is using the power, then Corypheus cannot use the power and stays dead. Also, the dragon fails to resurrect because the power no longer has Corypheus as its basis. And so they both die.

 

Corypheus, in powering up his dragon, applied a fatal flaw to his main strength. So instead of transferring to the nearest blighted creature, he would have to wait until the dragon resurrected first, which took much longer since the dragon was not of Corypheus but merely corrupted by him.

 

The archdemon is different. It simply transfers to the nearest blighted creature and morphs its body to be reborn in a new dragon form. Unless a Grey Warden slays it, thus drawing the soul into the Warden's own body, where the spirits clash and obliterate each other.

[Digger1967]

Archdemons survive when killed by anyone other than a grey warden because they have a soul. Normally when they are killed their soul jumps to the nearest tainted creature otherwise known as a darkspawn. This creature then, whether it's a hurlock or genlock etc, becomes a recepticle for the soul ad the archdemon is reborn in form and power. It's still an immense and powerful dragon, not a hurlock or anything it once was.

 

This does not happen when a warden strikes the killing blow. Because wardens already have souls. The taint in wardens still draws the archdemon soul but when the two souls meet both are destroyed, resulting in true death for the archdemon.

 

So Corypheus was able to survive being apparently killed because he too possesses a soul. That upon the destruction of his body moved to the nearest tainted body. What is not yet known is why both souls are not destroyed, as in the case with the archdemon.

 

And his dragon was similar in a way to Sauron and the one ring. He invested a large portion of his power into it. So it's destruction left him weakened and vulnerable.

 

Well maybe that's just it.. maybe his soul doesn't move to the "nearest" tainted being.  What if he's using the dragon more or less like a set of jumper cables.  Normally when killed his soul would jump to the "nearest" being, but in giving a part of himself to the dragon that gets circumvented.  His soul instead jumps back "home", where the rest of him is.. the dragon.  From there he can then move to any tainted being he wishes.

 

That would explain why the wardens can't kill him - because his soul doesn't jump to the warden, it jumps to the dragon instead.  Cory figured out a way to invest enough of himself in the dragon that it more or less acts like a homing beacon for his soul when he dies.

 

Once you kill the dragon, well the homing beacon is destroyed.  Then Cory can be killed.  Just a thought.

[C0uncil0rTev0s]

Well maybe that's just it.. maybe his soul doesn't move to the "nearest" tainted being.  What if he's using the dragon more or less like a set of jumper cables.  Normally when killed his soul would jump to the "nearest" being, but in giving a part of himself to the dragon that gets circumvented.  His soul instead jumps back "home", where the rest of him is.. the dragon.  From there he can then move to any tainted being he wishes.

 

That would explain why the wardens can't kill him - because his soul doesn't jump to the warden, it jumps to the dragon instead.  Cory figured out a way to invest enough of himself in the dragon that it more or less acts like a homing beacon for his soul when he dies.

 

Once you kill the dragon, well the homing beacon is destroyed.  Then Cory can be killed.  Just a thought.

Folks we've settled this already, okay?

All misunderstanding goes from Cory's and Morrigan's lines throughout two games and the soul travelling scheme (which was previously old god specific).

1. Cory declares himself being a high priest of Dumat, which was an immortal being (because of the soul travel scheme) in a form of a dragon.

2. Dumat as AD was previously slain at the Battle of Silent Fields, so technically his soul could survive.

3. Cory is a darkspawn.

4. Cory's soul can travel.to next corrupted body just like AD.

5. Morrigan refers to Cory's dragon as an archdemon after the Flemeth/Mythal scene, which is voiced and unlikely to be an error.

6. Cory can emanate same thing as the Calling, which is AD exclusive technique, too.

 

Thus, Cory and his dragon are 4/4 what AD is and could be the Dumat's pawn. But Darrah declared otherwise, so all we can agree on lazy, lore-breaking writing.
Gotta say there are lots of other lore-breaking things in DA:I, like locations geography and the history of Tevinter. 

 

[PhroXenGold]

5. Morrigan refers to Cory's dragon as an archdemon after the Flemeth/Mythal scene, which is voiced and unlikely to be an error.

 

Surely the logical answer to this is that Morrigan is simply referring to it as an archdemon so as not to cause confusion given thats what everyone else has been referring to it as regardless of whether it is technically correct.

[C0uncil0rTev0s]

Surely the logical answer to this is that Morrigan is simply referring to it as an archdemon so as not to cause confusion given thats what everyone else has been referring to it as regardless of whether it is technically correct.

No one else referred to Cory's dragon as an archdemon with a voice line. If there are such references please give a link to a video so all of us can see.

[PhroXenGold]

No one else referred to Cory's dragon as an archdemon with a voice line. If there are such references please give a link to a video so all of us can see.

 

Maybe I'm imagining it - and I certainly don't have the time to go searching through every line - but I definitely remember people referring to it being an archdemon from the moment you first meet it.

[CDR Aedan Cousland]

I believe they referred to it as an archdemon simply because they had no idea what else it could be at the time, or what else to call it. But most people (especially later on) didn't believe it was an actual archdemon.

[PhroXenGold]

I believe they referred to it as an archdemon simply because they had no idea what else it could be at the time, or what else to call it. But most people (especially later on) didn't believe it was an actual archdemon.

 

Exactly. And seeing as people are using that terminology, it's easiest to just keep using it even if you know it's technically wrong. Happens all the time.

[C0uncil0rTev0s]

Exactly. And seeing as people are using that terminology, it's easiest to just keep using it even if you know it's technically wrong. Happens all the time.

Please give a link to a video with a voiced line about 'everyone else' calling Cory's dragon an archdemon. All I can recall was a dialogue between random no name NPCs like this:

"Could that dragon be an archdemon?"

"But shouldn't we face a Blight then?"

"Yes, I completely forgot about it. No Blight = No Archdemon". 

 

Which I find as a late lazy excuse about the Blight and AD part got cut from the final build of a game. Too many inconsistencies about this are left here and there.

[DaemionMoadrin]

Archdemons are the blighted versions of the former Old/Dragon Gods of Tevinter. They are numbered and named. Dumat (1st Blight), Zazikel (2nd Blight), Toth (3rd Blight), Andoral (4th Blight) and Urthemiel (5th Blight) are dead already, which only leaves Razikale and Lusacan. The blighted dragon following Corypheus around was neither of them, which was immediately made apparent when there was no Blight following it.

One would assume the Wardens would have mentioned it if there was a new archdemon free in Thedas, since they can hear its voice in their dreams. They would have given that the highest priority, which would make all the stuff happening to them in DA:I impossible.

[Silcron]

I think it has to do with Cory being one of the original magisters that went in. So I think that all of them (I think the Architect is one of them too) still have their souls and are sort of halfway between darkspawn and archdemon. That is why they still have their souls and can posses others.

I think they just fail to state that directly in the game, but it's implied that that is the reason.

[C0uncil0rTev0s]

Archdemons are the blighted versions of the former Old/Dragon Gods of Tevinter. They are numbered and named. Dumat (1st Blight), Zazikel (2nd Blight), Toth (3rd Blight), Andoral (4th Blight) and Urthemiel (5th Blight) are dead already, which only leaves Razikale and Lusacan. The blighted dragon following Corypheus around was neither of them, which was immediately made apparent when there was no Blight following it.

One would assume the Wardens would have mentioned it if there was a new archdemon free in Thedas, since they can hear its voice in their dreams. They would have given that the highest priority, which would make all the stuff happening to them in DA:I impossible.

Okay, I see. You don't get my point. Watch my hands right now, okay?

I. What does AD so special? Combination of:
1. Immense magical power

2. Tainted (darkspawn)

3. Ability to switch to neareast bodies of other darkspawn in case of being slaughtered.

4. Ability to emanate Calling.

 

II. What of those has Cory?

1. Check

2. Check

3. Check

4. Check

 

If a duck walks a duck, quacks a duck, swims a duck and tastes a duck when roasted it's a duck, right?

 

Okay, **** the question is Cory AD or not. Let's assume he's not AD, but a very powerful ancient darkspawn with unknown to date cheat magic. But how did he possess that Grey Warden's soul in the Temple?

 

The very mechanic of killing AD is forcing AD to attempt to hijack an already hosted body. Soul (essence, whatever) tries to get into a Grey Warden body, and nullifies with the soul of the Grey Warden, killing both in the process.

 

So... Basically, Cory was forced to hijack a body of that Grey Warden in the Temple of Mythal... Which, actually, has a soul, right?..  
Okay let's assume that Warden was dead at the time Cory accessed the body. This presumes Cory can switch to corpses on death. K, if that true how didn't he switch to his buddy dragon's corpse?..

 

Any way you take it you get bullshit. It's called lazy writing, Gaider level.

[Digger1967]

Maybe I'm imagining it - and I certainly don't have the time to go searching through every line - but I definitely remember people referring to it being an archdemon from the moment you first meet it.

Cole says it looks like an archdemon. Something about seeing an archdemon in the fade and it looked like that. Cullen also refers to it as an archdemon at least twice in cut scenes, though he qualifies it by saying an archdemon or whatever it was. Viv refers to it as an archdemon during your first conversation with her at skyhold when she talks about what an interesting life you lead

So yes you are correct, there are plenty of archdemon references in the voice acting

[AppalachianApex]

Other Cory stuff I've been trying to pice together.

 

-Why exactly did he need to sacrifice anyone so as to unlock his orb's power?

-Why exactly did the person just have to be the Divine?

-Why oh why did he have to try and kill her in the middle of a meeting to all the most powerful military and magic forces in southern Thedas?

-Also, if he could just waltz right back up to the breach and re-open the damn thing, as he does at the end of the game, why the hell didn't he just do that sooner?

 

:/

[M_Helder]