The fact is, the concept of same sex marriage didn't even enter the minds of human societies until fairly recently. Humans of Thedas aren't that different from us. Why would they think any differently?
They already think a lot like us in modern times despite being in their medieval period, so why not think the way modern people do about this as well?
They already think a lot like us in modern times despite being in their medieval period, so why not think the way modern people do about this as well?
Let's keep them pure without taint of modern, real times. In fact they should stop thinking like 'us' totally.
They already think a lot like us in modern times despite being in their medieval period, so why not think the way modern people do about this as well?
Because this isn't something we even have a precedent for in ancient and medieval societies. There are societies where genders were practically equal, where women fought, where homosexuality was a non-issue, where no one would care about sex outside of marriage, but I know of absolutely no societies before our own where same sex marriage was a thing.
Ah, the Realism argument.
In that case, there should be such a thing in the game because there was such a thing in our history actually.
Because this isn't something we even have a precedent for in ancient and medieval societies. There are societies where genders were practically equal, where women fought, where homosexuality was a non-issue, where no one would care about sex outside of marriage, but I know of absolutely no societies before our own where same sex marriage was a thing.
Depends on the meaning of 'marriage'. If you mean marriage by our modern definition, then you are correct. If you mean marriage as in 'formally recognized as a couple together through a ceremony', then there is precedent.
http://en.wikipedia...._East_and_China
Depends on the meaning of 'marriage'. If you mean marriage by our modern definition, then you are correct. If you mean marriage as in 'formally recognized as a couple together through a ceremony', then there is precedent.
http://en.wikipedia...._East_and_China
I mean it within the modern definition.
So you are using the modern definition of marriage but then claiming that Thedas is similar to a historic real-world setting? If you are using the modern definition of marriage, then why can't they recognize a modern concept? If they are a historic society, then why can't they have a parallel to historic same sex unions?
It should be one or the other and either way, there could be an argument for same sex marriage in some capacity. I'm personally fine without it, but seems to me that the 'unrealistic' and 'real world comparison' argument isn't so airtight. Just saying.....
Ah, the Realism argument.
In that case, there should be such a thing in the game because there was such a thing in our history actually.
Divine Leliana would totally introduce gay marriage if someone suggested it to her.
Now that I think about it, if she's in a romance with a female Warden particularly, she probably does. Never considered that.
The fact is, the concept of same sex marriage didn't even enter the minds of human societies until fairly recently. Humans of Thedas aren't that different from us. Why would they think any differently?
This is almost laughably untrue.
Because this isn't something we even have a precedent for in ancient and medieval societies. There are societies where genders were practically equal, where women fought, where homosexuality was a non-issue, where no one would care about sex outside of marriage, but I know of absolutely no societies before our own where same sex marriage was a thing.
Then you need to do a bit of reading. It seems that your knowledge extends to the practices of ancient and medieval Europe, a single continent, which is hardly enough to make you an authority on the existence of same-sex unions in pre-modern history and outside of Judeo-Christian/Monotheistic societies.
If you're so inclined, I suggest you start with a book called "Boy-Wives and Female Husbands: Studies of African Homosexualities" to expand your understanding of this topic.
So you are using the modern definition of marriage but then claiming that Thedas is similar to a historic real-world setting? If you are using the modern definition of marriage, then why can't they recognize a modern concept? If they are a historic society, then why can't they have a parallel to historic same sex unions?
It should be one or the other and either way, there could be an argument for same sex marriage in some capacity. I'm personally fine without it, but seems to me that the 'unrealistic' and 'real world comparison' argument isn't so airtight. Just saying.....
Really think this best kept within the realms of head canon and Fan Fiction. Unless its relevant to the plot, like securing an Alliance or creating stability in the nation. The protagonist's personal affairs are best left when their job is done. Leave it in the realms of Happily ever after.
Really think this best kept within the realms of head canon and Fan Fiction. Unless its relevant to the plot, like securing an Alliance or creating stability in the nation. The protagonist's personal affairs are best left when their job is done. Leave it in the realms of Happily ever after.
Do you think the same of the romances in general as well? After all, that is the protagonist's private affairs and isn't relevant to the plot as well.
Really think this best kept within the realms of head canon and Fan Fiction. Unless its relevant to the plot, like securing an Alliance or creating stability in the nation. The protagonist's personal affairs are best left when their job is done. Leave it in the realms of Happily ever after.
If that's the case, why include romance at all? Or friendship, for that matter. Not like having a picnic with Cassandra or sitting on the roof with Sera is plot relevant.
And if the PC's personal affairs should be left until after they save the world, then the whole flirting with LI aspect of the game would be rendered obsolete.
I mentioned in an earlier post that I understand why a PC marriage wasn't included in the game, there's no place for it. But that wasn't the point of this thread. My point was that Bioware should expand on marriage in general since romance is such a huge part of the series..
The option to at least talk about it would be nice course I would also like the option to talk about more 'normal' every day things with companions in general gives it a little bit more of a role playing and immersion kind of feel. *shrugs*
I'm not sure what this reply has to do with Leliana murder knifing everyone in the name equality, but I pretty much addressed the fallacy of this sort of marriage is 100% about makin' babies in our world so it must be in Thedas, too argument here:
http://forum.bioware...ice/?p=18598043
/Seinfeld
Can you guys touch on this in the next installment, since it's brought up in DA:I quite a bit?
I get that marriage is chiefly important for nobles because politics, babies and bloodlines and all that jazz. But common folks without a pot to ****** in or a window to throw it out of also marry, yes? And what of elves, dwarves, and vashoth who aren't Andrastian or worship their own deities? What dictates their ideas about marriage and/or commitment?
Who ratifies their marriages? Do they even need to be ratified? I imagine most common people In Thedas simply exchange rings or what have you and call themselves married, rather than go to any expense or steps toward any sort of official recognition (who would care?).
And I gotta say, I think David Gaider's stance that same sex marriage isn't something that would occur to Thedosians is bogus and contradictory.
Personally, I wouldn't have even thought of the same sex marriage issue at all if DA:I wasn't littered with ss marriage references from actual Thedosians (aka the writers/developers). Did Gaider forget that the lady quiz can literally ask Sera if she wants to get married? Or that Josephine's sister will ask a lady quiz if she and her sister are going run away to get married in secret?
As shallow as Skyrim's relationships are, I love the way they mirror the primitive and dangerous world of the game. When dragons are dropping out of the sky like flies and you can be killed any second, you're not going to be picky about relationships. So you wear an amulet that says you're available. Another available person notices said amulet and your ability to kill flying murder monsters and/or bandits for them. You agree to marry. You provide them with shelter and protection. They provide you with money and pie.
Anyway, relationships are such a big part of Bioware games, it would be cool if you dealt with marriage more.
Kind of hoping dragona ge doesn't devolve into cheesey romance fanfiction. I want hard hitting story and tough decisions, not a wedding scene...
There is a statement from David Gaider from a long while back that says marriage amongst humans and city elves is mostly about procreation.
http://www.gamebansh...-v15-94324.html
This is from 2009 and I've referenced what he said already. That said, a lot has changed since then, just look at the hullabaloo behind Aqun-Athlok.
Secondly, I've already said that I think DG's stance is contradictory. Even in that answer, he says that non-hetero people are "largely rare". Seriously?
There are more non-hetero people in this series than I know in real life: Anders - Bi - Isabella - Bi - Sera - Gay - Dorian - Gay - Leliana - Bi - Iron Bull - Bi - Merrill - Bi - Josephine - Bi - Zevran - Bi - Feynriel - Bi - Celene - Gay/Bi - Brialla - Gay/Bi . Did I miss anyone?
You can't throw a rock without hitting someone who might be amenable to some same-sex lovin' in this series.
Also, "mostly" is not all, something I've also said repeatedly. We know marriage is mostly important to nobles, but that doesn't mean they're the only ones who partake. Nevermind the fact that he was discussing Ferelden and Orlais, humans and city elves - who are heavily influenced by humans - are not the end all and be all of Thedas. What they believe is neither here nor there for a Dwarf, the Dalish, or Vashoth. As I said in my OP, it would be nice to see Bioware elaborate on this in the future.
But really, none of what you've been posting justifies the complete absence of same-sex unions as the series continues. At all.
Modifié par Qunquistador, 14 février 2015 - 05:01 .
Not to mention the two marriages we know the most about first hand, Leandra's and Aveline's, were made due to romantic love primarily. Procreation was an after thought and social standing wasn't considered at all.
What Gaider said about it in 2009 is completely contradictory to the Thedas they've actually written. With the exception of nobility, where bloodlines and inheritance are important, they've crafted a mostly homophobia-free world that has zero religious taboo on the subject. That's absolutely no reason why two gay commoners wouldn't/couldn't be married.
I don't particularly care about having my protagonists marry their LIs, but the hypocrisy of this has always annoyed me.
This is from 2009 and I've referenced what he said already. That said, a lot has changed since then, just look at the hullabaloo behind Aqun-Athlok.
Secondly, I've already said that I think DG's stance is contradictory. Even in that answer, he says that non-hetero people are "largely rare". Seriously?
There are more non-hetero people in this series than I know in real life: Anders - Bi - Isabella - Bi - Sera - Gay - Dorian - Gay - Leliana - Bi - Iron Bull - Bi - Merrill - Bi Josephine - Bi - Zevran - Bi - Feynriel - Bi - Celene - Gay/Bi - Brialla - Gay/Bi . Did I miss anyone?
You can't throw a rock without hitting someone who might be amenable to some same-sex lovin' in this series.
Also, "mostly" is not all, something I've also said repeatedly. We know marriage is mostly important to nobles, but that doesn't mean they're the only ones who partake. Nevermind the fact that he was discussing Ferelden and Orlais, humans and city elves - who are heavily influenced by humans - are not the end all and be all of Thedas. What they believe is neither here nor there for a Dwarf, the Dalish, or Vashoth. As I said in my OP, it would be nice to see elaborate on this in the future.
But really, none of what you've been posting justifies the complete absence of same-sex unions as the series continues. At all.
There is a statement from David Gaider from a long while back that says marriage amongst humans and city elves is mostly about procreation.
http://www.gamebansh...-v15-94324.html
There was a wedding, well an interrupted wedding, in DAO, if you played the City Elf.
I'm not sure of the female options, but if you play a male Elf and tell your Father, Cyrion that you do not want to marry, he says that 'unmarried, you're a child forever.'
So, at least for the Denerim City elves, it looks like marriage also symbolized a right of passage from childhood to adulthood.
I would agree that the complete lack of any sort of same sex union on the continent is strange, but my main point was that from the Andrastian point of view, which is the dominant point of view on the continent, marriage is about producing children.
Fair enough. I'm honestly not knowledgeable enough to speak on Andrastian marriage and its position on procreation. But I'm guessing that many in the Chantry would view the concept of same sex marriage the same way they view the concept of a male Divine.
Do you think the same of the romances in general as well? After all, that is the protagonist's private affairs and isn't relevant to the plot as well.
I do actually. Not for that reason, but I hate coming here and seeing Romance threads clog the arteries of these forums constantly.
Wait I've thought of something.
If the same design team goes into designing our tux/dresses that also did the formal attire, I don't want to be married. In fact "until death do you part" clause would come incredibly premature because I would die in shame if they made me wear something as garish as the formal attire.
Retour en haut