17 réponses à ce sujet

[OldTimeRadio]

People seem to be rabid over these Infinity engine-style games, nowdays.  I look at the Baldur's Gate series of games, being remastered by Beamdog/Overhaul, and how popular they are.  I look at Torment: Tides of Numenera (video) and Pillars of Eternity (video) and both of those hold the number one and number two spots as the most successfully-funded video games in Kickstarter history.  I look at RPG Maker VX Ace (video) and how popular it is even at seventy dollars a copy. (!)

 

I look at those things and I think "You know, you could probably hit a lot of those feature bullet points with NWN, modding-wise."

 

The main thing these games have in common is 2D pre-rendered backgrounds over which either 3D characters or 2D animated sprites move.  In most cases, the pre-rendered background allow for much more detail than a regular graphics engine could produce...and people like that.

 

Anyway, I've played a few RPG Maker VX Ace games (own it, too) and I think NWN could probably emulate that style of game quite well.  I mean, it would take a lot of work but I think it's basically doable.  After watching this snippet of a Pillars of Eternity area in Unity, I started thinking about just how much more it could do.

 

Think it's possible?  If not, what are the gotchas you foresee?

 

Think it would be easier for newbies to get into/make custom content or harder?

 

Is it something you, yourself, would be interested in modding for?

 

My two cents is it might be a wash.  Being able to create pre-rendered backgrounds is as big and time-intensive a deal as they are beautiful.  However, maybe some hypothetical implementation wouldn't go that far.  Here's a video where someone makes a nice little area for RPG Maker VX Ace using Gimp.  Best to skip through the video but you get the idea what's going on as their work progresses.  I thought about how interesting it would be to just assemble an area in a paint program, basically.  There are also some gotchas involving layering with these sprites and that could be a big, big headache.  Maybe not.  I guess it would depend on how you approach it.

 

Thanks!

[NWN_baba yaga]

Hmm,

i have done lightmapped models (rooms, objects and even some complete tile areas) and it looks indeed much better compared to the average stuff. To do lightmapped stuff is a question of texture usage. Lets say you have just a single room with 4 walls, a door and a window. Now texture the whole thing, do your lights in 3dsmax and render to texture the complete stuff. To not lose to much detail you might end up with 2 or 3 512*512 textures just for the room. It´s possible and i like that way but now imagine you take a forest tile with 4 trees and 5 rocks and some ferns etc. and lightmap all that within 3dsmax. I´m sure you end up with 6 textures for one forest tile. There is another way i did and that was to ligthmap one or 2 trees that look different and use these proto models and just copy and paste them onto the terrain. Now i only lightmap the floor terrain and voila i have a pretty good forest tile that is lightmapped. It´s not perfect but the result is way better.

Problem is if you start using this method you have to do everything this way otherwise stuff looks out of place.

Thats why i once started to only create specific parts of a building tile for a town. It looks like one of those old school point and click games where only parts are visible that are "relevant" so to say. Its realy a question of how you are able to feel immersed anyway without a complete 3d environment. 

another example is to create a simple grocery store. You only model one wall with the counter (+ the entrance of course on the side) and the stuff you can buy behind the counter (at the wall), maybe some stuff around and thats it. you dont model a complete room that has no other function as to be able to run stupidly around without doing anything. Just focus on what can the player do and needs to see and render to texture all relevant stuff. It´s pretty cool!

If you know how to do this the last thing you gotta care about is using placeable lights in the toolset a lot. I have used alot of diffuse only lights and negative lights that black out npcs that might hide in a pretty dark area of a forest tile (think about the shadows of bushes etc.) IT works definately but if only one guy does this makes no sense for anyone else. It looks completely different as you can imagine. All the details you can think of can be thrown into a scene and the lightmaps do most of the stuff for you. Thats imo why many modern games can suck gfx wise here and there but the lighting covers that. Even a boring big terrain ala DA looks "ok" because of the lights. Without that it would just suck!

IF we would have started to do this 6 years ago.... we would now have alot of stuff that you could compare to a lot of modern games. Just because of the lighting and shadows. I´m pretty much back in my projects for nwn and i will show you what i did already soon

 

But I would take NWN any time over any other game. The infinity games are great no doubt but working with these wonky tools for them or just messing aroung with shitty or buggy stuff just to add something new is just not worth the time for me. And look at BGEEs new areas. They are useable for one F****** time where you run through, kill some monsters do some quest and thats it. Where the tileset system is perfect to reuse stuff.

[rjshae]

I had a notion to use the 'Overland Map' mode of NWN2 to implement an IE-style game. This setting fixes the camera at a specific angle and prevents it from being rotated. The advantages are that the player doesn't need to constantly mess around with camera angle, and you don't need to add as many placeables (since the walls and buildings will conceal the back side). Still debating whether to do this or not.

[Sheldomar]

I'm kind of torn on the whole subject. Games like Baldur's Gate and ToEE are among my favorites, but it's not because of the isometric style, it's because they are great games. Likewise, I think the success of the games you listed are due to the reputation of the originals, and the goodwill people have for their creators.

 

Short of that, I think the turn-based tactical gameplay is a bigger draw than the art style, at least for me. Modern 3d games look better than the pre-rendered backgrounds of those games, in my opinion. I think NWN's Achilles heel is its outdated rendering engine...

 

NWN originally had a limited camera, and that did cover up some of its faults, but I think it would be a step backward to lock the camera again. Remember how well received skyboxes were when they were patched in - I don't think it would add to the game's appeal if they were removed now. It would probably not be that difficult to lock the camera again, but I don't think it would really turn out to be very popular.

 

And consider the travesty that is Neverwinter Online. So many people were excited for that game until they found out how limited the "Foundry" was, and even still it is extremely popular. If a true updated NWN was ever made, I think it would take off tremendously - maybe even more so (for modders at least) than the titles you mentioned. There is a huge audience for an easily moddable 3d game - Bethesda has already proven that potential with its Elder Scrolls series...

 

And as a last point - the strength of NWN, and maybe the real point of it all, is the ability for people to easily create their own worlds and adventures, something that can't really be done if they can only use a limited amount of pre-rendered maps. While your concept is very intriguing, I think it would be a lot of work for what would essentially be a stand-alone game - and one that wouldn't begin to approach the popularity of those nostalgia fueled titles you mentioned.

[MerricksDad]

If I am not mistaken, that is exactly what Kingsroad was doing. Even their extracts for normals, shadows and faked impact points were done the same way. If you use browser listeners, like firebug or adblock plus, you can collect up all the file names requested into a log file, then you can (like me) download a list of all those images, code files, etc. It is a good way to get some browser game sprites. Or with the case of KingsRoad, I was examining maps and textures.

[MerricksDad]

My take on this is simple. If you CAN do it, you should probably do it if it appeals to you. But, NWN already is a 2d game with a 3d aspect. We're lucky enough if we can actually fake true 3d mapping good enough that people don't realize. But if you take away another dimension, such as the ability to actually turn the camera, you lose a bit more, I think anyway... Granted, final fantasy 7 and beyond have done an excellent job of doing that exact thing, and those games were the type that pull you in. Others like BG, IWD, their sequels, PS:T, ToEE, Arcanum, etc, have all done just that and also kept the player interest in ways newer games certainly don't. I also enjoyed the side scrolling DND games on arcade, as well as try-hard clones like Legend and Magic Sword. And again, until changes last year, I loved KingsRoad on facebook.

 

Given that I am more interested in 3d models, and have been since Quake the first, I will probably keep my work in as much a 3d aspect as I can get, and continue assisting others in that mode. I likely would not be around to help with 2d world creation, even though my IE clone was specifically for just that purpose.

 

That being said, the stuff OTR and I have done with animated textures would be perfect for use with side-scrolling mods, to the point where you could even rip (or steal since it has already been ripped a million times) any sprite from console games and use that character (simon belmont anyone?) right in a DND module.

[Sheldomar]

I forgot to mention Divinity:Original Sin as an example of an apparently successful isometric game with 3d rendering. I think it shows that if you do prefer that style of play, it might be better to focus on the mechanics it entails - turn-based, full party control, etc, than trying to modify the graphics from 3d to 2d. I don't think Aurora is up to that task, though...

[Jedijax]

 

 

I was going to make an extensive comment on your idea, but it has all been addressed already in the previous comments. I think the reason people like these games is mainly nostalgia. In second place, I would say their simplicity appeals to a broader audience; and finally, in general, their spec requirements are not as high as those of more elaborate 3-d games.

 

As many have already expressed, I bet you could achieve something similar with NWN, but why? I believe it is already a superior product. Sure, the whole light effects and fluid animations look cool, same as the textures, but NWN has so much more to offer. I've been playing Dragon Age: Origins and Mass Effect as of late, and am continuously awed at the quality of both, while still recognizing the evolution of NWN in them. If anything, I believe THAT is the next step we should be looking forward to, rather than taking a step back.

 

Anyway, I hope this doesn't dissuade you from experimenting with such ideas. I think you've always had the most interesting approaches on NWN mechanics, and I am sure we would all benefit from your endeavors. I just wouldn't change our heavily evolved NWNs for all the previously mentioned games.

Close

[OldTimeRadio]

Thanks for the feedback on the idea, everyone! 

 

Just to be clear, the thing I was thinking of was maybe something like, in an alternate universe, where Bioware had the Aurora engine (that we have today) but chose to go with 2D backgrounds and either sprites or 3D for characters and made the same exact game, but expressed it differently through the same engine.  Something like that.  Mainly, though, I'm kind of wondering if it would have been easier or more difficult, modding-wise.  I guess the bulk of the burden of work would shift from 3D game asset modeling (lowpoly, limited assets) to 3D art and rendering (highpoly, basically unlimited assets).

 

 

[Frith5]

Interesting ideas here, all around. To me, one of the key strengths of NWN (and her community) is the unbounded possibilities. Unique creation is the foundation of this game's appeal, to me, and OTR's question/idea is another take on that. I don't play any single game style exclusively (when I actually play at all, which is increasingly rare). Some of my favorite gaming moments happened in tabletop D&D, text-only MUDs, board games, card games, and point-and-click adventures like Monkey Island and Quest For Glory. Oh, also the original Betrayal at Krondor. See, the presentation/representation of the game isn't the same in any of those games. So what makes them enjoyable must rely on something other than the 2d v. 3d, text v. visuals, etc.

I think it'd be fun to mess around with making a Monkey Island style NWN game, using that style environment. But part of the fun would also be, of course, capturing the humor and 'ahhh' moments of Guybrush's adventures.

As for the what if: Well, I think it would have been quite different if NWN had been presented in that format exclusively from the get go. Firstly, it may have stopped inexperienced/non-artistically bent people from creating modules. Those early (easy) attempts helped people get their feet wet with NWN, and undoubtedly led them and others on to greater things with the game. To produce a 'nice' background for use in a unique module would seem to take much more effort on an artistic level than to assemble pre-made tiles into a forested area, drop some orcs, etc.

So, I think it may have slowed the evolution and growth of the community.  That said, if I found myself with the time to do so, I'd love to play around with a 'different' NWN layout. I remember using the camera lock to try to simulate a PC 'chimneying' up a tube-shaped area I made in Max, for one of my original "Beneath the Twisted Tower" modules a long time ago. I wanted at that time a different type of game, for that segment. Being able to have a painted scene of ships moving across the ocean, firing cannon.... yeah.

Wow, long winded post.   Best thing about this community? Never know what new idea or question I'll see here.

 

Regards,

JFK

[Carcerian]

Having modded many games before and after NWN, i love nwn for 3 reasons:

 

1: An easy to use toolset, with ability to add in new content easily in simple haks.

 

2: C style scripting

 

3: NWN's use of the Asciii Mdl format (easy to learn, hard to master, with much built in and still untapped potential, as ppl like OTR, MerricksDad and all the other ppl who tear content apart and put back together in new ways continue to prove, a decade later, taking advantage of untapped features the original programmers wrote in, but never got developed by 3-d artists, due to 2002's hardware/software driver DX9/OpenGL performance limitations)

 

The Biggest "Oh-WOW, is this still really nwn?" player moments go to fallout 3 content conversions (showing the old grey horse can still do new tricks), demonstrating that the NWN engine is still fully capable of supporting HD level content with the same performance levels as modern games...

[Verilazic]

Personally, the only thing I really like about Infinity Engine is the ability to precisely control a party. The fact that I can only truly control my main character in NWN has always made me sad. I grew up playing party-based crpgs, and it really feels like nowadays rpgs have been moving more towards controlling an individual character instead of a squad. =/

 

Not only would improvements to NWN's AI of course always be nice, but the ability to have greater control over henchmen has always been very high on my wishlist.

[Carcerian]

And smarter pathfinding, at least ultima7 level would be nice...

 

And the ability to recognize a Z axis as one walkmesh crosses above or below another...

 

And drag-able character sheet and inventory windows...

 

And ability to place a smaller bag in a larger box...

 

(if were making an engine upgrade wishlist)

[MerricksDad]

I don't fully understand why they didn't use the engine from Drakan. As far as I remember, that was true 3d mapping. It could have been done in tileset form with little work. I think they simply focused on other things, but, in that age, true 3d mapping was a must, and they failed. Not failed as in NWN isn't wondrous, but failed in that it doesn't come forward as fast as we'd like, and that it doesn't let people practice building in the true 3d experience. Even Quake 2 had true 3d mapping! I never got into Unreal, but I assume it was only progressed from Quake 2. I know the textures and lighting was handled better. But Quake 2 was a massive improvement over Quake 1. It used to take forever just to run precalculated shadows and lighting for Quake 1. I crashed so many computers in the 90's! But it was worth it. Every object I made which came out of the system fully developed was spectacular (at the time).

 

Oh yeah, jumping! NWN is so flat.

[OldTimeRadio]

Well, those things would be nice but I'm not talking about anything that would require a change to the NWN code at all.  Simply the graphics.  And not the graphics code or anything like that, but just the existing art assets.  I mean the kind of thing that would allow you to convert any existing NWN module/PW to something like a Baldur's Gate viewpoint.  I really haven't thought about the conversion aspect of it at all, but I mean, something like where you drop assets into the override?

 

At the highest level of compatibility, something like this would just be replacing 3D structures with their 2D renders and then locking the camera at an appropriate view.  Creatures would still take up the exact same footprint in the game and everything, just be represented by a 2D plane onto which their animated texture would play.  I'm not necessarily proposing this for a total conversion, but I do think it makes an interesting mental exercise to either envision what challenges to modding something like that would be or as an idea for creating 2D mini-games within NWN.

 

I'm not very familiar with the Infinity engine to begin with but, from what I've seen (graphically), the visuals in that exist as a subset (more or less) of what NWN is already capable of.

 

It's too bad a proof of concept for something like this would be too time-intensive just to sort of show what I mean.

[MerricksDad]

I have already extracted a bunch of maps from certain facebook games for you if you like to poke at the idea further. I have a forest clearing, the same clearing with party streamers (medieval times), a spider forest with rocky regions, a town similar to diablo 1 tristram (but smaller), and an ogre village in the crags with suspension bridges. All are represented by multiple 1024 high quality jpg images. I would put them on the vault, but I don't think their owner would be happy.

 

Edit: Here's an example of the spider forest

 

Edit again:

 

If you like that kind of stuff, you can check out constructed mini-maps of various areas here.

[MerricksDad]

It's too bad a proof of concept for something like this would be too time-intensive just to sort of show what I mean.

 

It might not be as bad as you think. My guess is it would simply take these few things:

 

1. Tilt tiles for a tileset at a certain direction in relation to the locked camera angle.
2. fill the tileset with images like those I showed just above.
3. Define exceptionally complex walkmeshes which work precisely with your image (that will take the most time).
4. And/or tilt the angle in the base animation for the human model ( if played correctly, you can just use it as is)
5. Fit the tiles with interesting walkmesh style so you can walk up and down, left and right, and it slides you on the texture at the speed you really need.

• Side note here: I recently figured out that the internal workings of the engine move your character at the proper speed it takes to traverse 3d space from one point to another, not just simply traverse x/y coordinates. What I mean is: when you walk up a walkmesh which is 45 degrees or steeper, you can see your character physically slow down to match the actual distance across the face he is walking. This is very useful toward making a 2d game because you can manipulate the speed by altering the walkmesh. My infinity engine clone failed to do this. If you walked up or down a hill, you moved faster or slower than you should have. I never went back to fix it. I think they made the same mistake in the sims 1/2, as well as everquest.

I think a test example could be built pretty quickly. Of course it won't have all that neat lighting and what not we'd expect from advanced 2d games. And I personally have no idea how to use the data in the height/blocking maps for the images I have extracted. Or if we even could in NWN. Probably not. Those blocking maps also show where something is supposed to conceal the user by 50%. I don't know how to pull that off in NWN. But I am sure it wouldn't be that hard.

 

Thinking about that specifically, you might have to chop a section of the 2d image out and clone it into a placeable. That way if you walk behind it, it conceals the player correctly. Using the blocking map, it would be easy to disect from the main tile image.

 

Dammit. Now you got me wanting to try this

[Shadooow]

 

Not only would improvements to NWN's AI of course always be nice, but the ability to have greater control over henchmen has always been very high on my wishlist.

NWN AI improvements are available. TonyK AI or AI improvements in my unofficial patch.

 

Full henchman control is doable via NWNX. I found a way how to possess animal companion (and this is possible in CPP 1.72beta) and the same method could be used to possess henchman, but for henchmans there would have to be some further modification of how to select them and I smell a possible problem with henchman's familiar so I didn't worked on this. Still Im fairy confident its doable (if NWNCX wouldn't be so big obstacle for many players of course).