206 réponses à ce sujet

[JoltDealer]

This is why I say it's unfair to compare the Dark Energy ending to what we got.

 

I mean, yeah ME3's explanation for the Reapers is so bad just about anything else would likely have been an improvement.  But Dark Energy doesn't sound like it got past an initial brainstorming stage.  There's still a lot of gaps in it.It may have been better, worse, or equally bad as what we got.

 

Basically comparing the two would be like comparing a bad, but complete novel with the incomplete outline of a different story.

 

You and I don't always agree, but this is an exception.  I think a lot of us -- myself included -- heard about the Dark Energy ending and just latched onto it because it was something other than the ending that we got.  We all agree that the original ending was disappointing, but we all do so in varying degrees.  Knowing that the Dark Energy Ending was little more than notes on a paper actually kind of helps a bit.

 

Lack of setup was a major flaw for the entire trilogy, yes.

 

I wouldn't say that.  I think it set up too many things without knowing where it would lead.  Some things worked out wonderfully, while others only barely or not at all.

[CrutchCricket]

It's funny that in isolation ME2 is a lot of people's favorite game of the series but from an overall story perspective it seems to have also been the biggest letdown.  YMMV.

 

Mass Effect 2 was great because it did exactly what Bioware is best at- great characters you actually give a damn about. The problem is not only does it not advance the story, it actively throws another wrench into the works via the whole dead and brought back angle.

 

The writer's approach (making one game at time) is actually quite common in modern media. All serialized TV-shows have a rough outline that usually get tossed out after a few episodes. Sometimes it's shocking how little planning there actually is.

 

Shows like Battlestar Galactica and Breaking Bad had no planned finale. The writers went into every season without knowing how it would end.

The writers of the TNG-episode "The Best of Both Worlds" wrote the first part and went on a 3 month summer break not knowing what part 2 would be. Same with DS9. The identity of the founders wasn't revealed during the finale of season 2 "The Jem'Hadar" because nobody thought about making Odo's people the leaders of Dominion until the had to write the premier of season 3 several month later.

 

I wonder if it's actually possible to plan far ahead when you write a book/TV/game series. You never know which character or storylines will be popular.

 

True enough. In fact a recent TV ending failure of ME3 proportions was How I Met Your Mother and it was a failure for precisely the opposite reasons of ME3. ME3 had zero planning and last second nonsensical asspulls while HIMYM's writers induced massive dong suckage via chaining themselves to a nine year old plan, despite literally every aspect of that show evolving in completely different directions.

 

So there you go. Proof it can suck both ways.

[Linkenski]

Yeah, I mean, saying that the ending solely sucks because Drew or the other writers who left weren't involved is probably wrong to just assume, but I'd still argue the whole game would've probably been better and felt more true to the other 2 games if he'd been there all along.

 

But yeah, the current endings might still be a case of Bioware or Casey originally having a preset ending in mind and then just slapped that on top of the story when in reality, Mass Effect had evolved in a completely different way than what had been planned back when Casey thought of that ending concept.

 

Clearly, if you look at the Final Hours of Mass Effect it shows Casey being really creative with slamming circuitry boards into pieces of meat -- a picture that ended up being used for the prothean visions in ME1, but it also showed Casey's vision for ME being about the organics and synthetic struggle at large, or at least one could argue so.

 

The ending was just a result of whoever wrote it not looking back properly at what had actually been made and then crafted a properly conclusive ending out from that.

[Obadiah]

One day Drew will actually play the ending, or watch them on YouTube, and finally post a comment.

[Iakus]

One day Drew will actually play the ending, or watch them on YouTube, and finally post a comment.

He may play or watch the ending.  But I don't think he'll ever comment on it.

 

I don't think he wants to take a stand on this, out of professional courtesy to his fellow writers.

[God]

You can take a stand on a topic without insulting your peers and past associates. 

 

Saying you like or dislike the ending, or the game, or aspects of it, or whatever isn't a bad thing. He can have an opinion. 

 

How he chooses to address that opinion is where he'd have to be diplomatic with his language.

[Obadiah]

He may play or watch the ending.  But I don't think he'll ever comment on it.
 
I don't think he wants to take a stand on this, out of professional courtesy to his fellow writers.

Maybe. Hope not.

[God]

Yeah, I'd personally be interested to hear how Drew found the endings. It wouldn't change my opinion of them, but it would be interesting to get a small insider perspective on them.

[Iakus]

You can take a stand on a topic without insulting your peers and past associates. 

 

Saying you like or dislike the ending, or the game, or aspects of it, or whatever isn't a bad thing. He can have an opinion. 

 

How he chooses to address that opinion is where he'd have to be diplomatic with his language.

He can have an opinion, sure.   

 

But anything he says will be twisted by others to support their cause.  No matter how tactfully he may put it.  And I think he knows it.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Using dark energy and tying it in with biotics and using a human centric plot was flawed because ... humans were so deficient in biotics so how could they be the apex species? The Asari were the apex species. Humans were the apex species because... well the buyers are human, not the fictional Asari. This is one reason I would guess why that never made it off the drawing board.

 

Also when you have a group project there are a lot of different ideas about things and there is a lot of "No."

 

But seriously, ending it with kicking the reapers and being the big goddam hero you'd been through the entire game, and, like in DAI the final scene

Spoiler

going to your quarters and meeting your love interest.

would have been the way to end the game. Cheesy? Yes. Would you have complained? No.

[God]

Maybe. But I very highly doubt its the case.

 

Nowadays, it's been 3 years since ME3 came out. The vast majority of people have moved on entirely. Most likely, most people just won't care about Drew's opinion. It might be an interesting look at the game, but the vitriol and junk is long past. Besides, it's not as though his opinion is going to generate massive news. You'll likely see a small blog post made by him about it, and a few mentions in some gaming blogs about the topic, but nothing much more than a paragraph or short article. While the ending will forever remain an example of controversy in the history of video games (and will likely be discussed on such periphery niche forums as this for years, maybe decades, to come), there's no more topical relevance to the issue. It's done, and in the past. It's not going to change (it's been two years since BW even made a patch for the game).

 

As well, there are only a few people still vocal about the ending. Everyone else stopped paying attention to them a long time ago. There's not a chance that Drew would care about what they'd have to say or do with his word. Nobody would care what they had to say. They'd just shrug and move on. The only people left are the extreme hardliner haters and the equally hardline defenders combating them.

 

I feel the most likely reason for Drew not to say anything about the ending is that he himself just plain doesn't care enough about it to spend time addressing it, especially since it was 3 years ago.

[TMA LIVE]

I get the impression from Drew that one of the reasons he left Bioware was because games like Mass Effect was overwhelming him. He talks a lot about all this stuff that needs to be managed, the expense, the time, and feeling like it's getting too big as well as having a harder time with creative control. It's one of the reason why I hope Bioware's next IP is a smaller game, and not the huge blockbusters ME and DA became.

[CrutchCricket]

I get the impression from Drew that one of the reasons he left Bioware was because games like Mass Effect was overwhelming him. He talks a lot about all this stuff that needs to be managed, the expense, the time, and feeling like it's getting too big as well as having a harder time with creative control. It's one of the reason why I hope Bioware's next IP is a smaller game, and not the huge blockbusters ME and DA became.

 

He left because he wanted to focus on his own projects, specifically the Chaos Born trilogy, a set of original fantasy works. Now that that's done he's actually said going back to Star Wars/Mass Effect/video games is a possibility. I guess we'll see what he decides to do.

[CptFalconPunch]

Even acclaimed writers such as J.K. Rowling had their fair share of contrivances. I hardly think the twist with Prof. Snape was planned out when she wrote her first Harry Potter novel.

 

The catastrophe of Mass Effect was the switchup in writers and core staff* between Mass Effect 2 and 3.

 

Sure Mass Effect 2 didn't do as well as it should've even though it had most of the ME1 staff on board, but ME3 changed up writers for so many characters and Mac Walters' Lead Writer takeover job resulted in a ******-poor introduction and along with Casey's clueless tampering the biggest trainwreck of an ending I have ever seen to a story which wasn't completely bad beforehand.

 

I agree with Iakus. it's unfair to compare the current ending with Drew Karpyshyn's idea -- in fact, it's unfair to compare the current ME3 we have to the ME3 we would've gotten if Drew Karpyshyn as well as Chris L'Etoile and Lukas Kristjanson had still been on board.

 

*I reckon the loss of Armando Troisi (who wanted to work with 343i on Halo 4 instead) was a big factor in why there were so many cutscene glitches, derp eyes and lack of dialogue options. In his presentation during ME2's development he hammered down the fact that player agency was important and his expertise was in cinematography during cutscenes and such.

 

**Furthermore the lack of Jack Wall also contributed to the alienating feel of Mass Effect 3.

Drew Karphyshyn left before ME2 was even completed. Which means he did work on it for some time at least.

 

Yet, ME2 has the worst storytelling out of the 3, ME3 does have a plot, which is good for the most part.

 

But the ending feels out of place. Being an engineer though makes me understand the thought that went behind it which makes it impossible for me to hate it.

Can't imagine what other people though of it.

 

The catastrophy began from ME2, when a whole game doesn't partake in anything towards beating the main villain, you're gonna have even bigger problems in the third.

For all its worth, I think they did good for the most part.

[TMA LIVE]

He left because he wanted to focus on his own projects, specifically the Chaos Born trilogy, a set of original fantasy works. Now that that's done he's actually said going back to Star Wars/Mass Effect/video games is a possibility. I guess we'll see what he decides to do.

I know he says he left for person projects as his official reason. Again, he says "That's one of the reasons why I left, I just don't have the time, and I want to work on my personal projects". It implies working on something like ME or Knights, even as just a writer, has become too much work.

[Asharad Hett]

Both the dark energy ending and the starkid ending have major problems, since they both nullify the plot of ME1.  The reapers of ME1 were not trying to save the galaxy.  

 

• "I am beyond your comprehension"   not "I am trying the save the galaxy from organic species"    
• "Your extinction is inevitable" not "We will save your species from certain extinction"
• "You cannot grasp the nature of our existence"  not "Your species makes the same mistakes past generations, and we are here to help"
• "You cannot escape your doom"  not "We will save you from doom"
• "I am the Vanguard of your destruction" .... you get my point

[Asharad Hett]

double post

[Asharad Hett]

 

they should have left the reapers alone not turn them into saviors

 

 

Yep

[Alamar2078]

@InterrigationBear: I agree that characters can develop their own life and while you may have plans they can do a 180 on you when you're crafting a story.  While I believe the story architect should have a pretty darned good plan nailed down they'd be a fool not to incorporate superior ideas into the story that they're crafting even if that means going back to the drawing board and rearchitecting pieces to fit the new, superior whole.

 

... I'm sure you're waiting for it ....

 

BUT there is a completely different set of expectations when developing in a series RPGs where the expectation is that each entry in the series will build upon what went prior to reach a satisfying climax [and falling action].  In addition the interactive nature of this medium [I.E. choice] throws in a complicating factor that no other media that I'm aware of has to deal with.  I.E. you don't just have to make a decent experience for folks that decide to "zag" you also have to take into account what happens when the player's "zig".  Here is where I contend that if you're not super careful that if you're flying by the seat of your pants you'll paint yourselves into a narrative corner that you won't be able to satisfyingly get out of.

 

I believe in another thread that one of the original writers [DK] indicated that games of this nature were getting too big to effectively handle & manage.  He may not have been referring to exactly this type of issue however I contend that if there isn't at least some structure imposed on the chaos then on these bigger projects things will just fly apart at the seams.

 

Devil's Advocate:  One of my favorite TV shows of all time was Babylon 5.  While there were pretty decent plans in place even the best laid plans go sideways very quickly when you're working with people over an extended period of time and have the uncertainty of cancellation.  IMHO the team involved did a pretty good job of rolling with the punches and were not just able to adapt to change but incorporate that successfully into what they produced.  In the end I'll agree that slavish devotion to structure or "the plan" is [almost] as bad as flying by the seat of your pants and hoping that things work out.

[Valmar]

 

Both the dark energy ending and the starkid ending have major problems, since they both nullify the plot of ME1.  The reapers of ME1 were not trying to save the galaxy.  

 

• "I am beyond your comprehension"   not "I am trying the save the galaxy from organic species"    
• "Your extinction is inevitable" not "We will save your species from certain extinction"
• "You cannot grasp the nature of our existence"  not "Your species makes the same mistakes past generations, and we are here to help"
• "You cannot escape your doom"  not "We will save you from doom"
• "I am the Vanguard of your destruction" .... you get my point

 

 

The first game is a sort of blacksheep in the trilogy, really. Sure you can say its only the starbrat that contradicts it but really the second game contradicted it as well. It went from doom and extinction to ascension, perfection, trancendance. They went from being our end to being our salvation. This was in ME2, mind you. If anything, out of the three, the story of ME2 and ME3 in regards of the reapers is fairly consistent. They both went a completely different way than what the first game alluded to yet work fairly well with each other.

[Iakus]

The first game is a sort of blacksheep in the trilogy, really. Sure you can say its only the starbrat that contradicts it but really the second game contradicted it as well. It went from doom and extinction to ascension, perfection, trancendance. They went from being our end to being our salvation. This was in ME2, mind you. If anything, out of the three, the story of ME2 and ME3 in regards of the reapers is fairly consistent. They both went a completely different way than what the first game alluded to yet work fairly well with each other.

The first game should have been the precedent-setting game.  The one that sets the themes and tones for the trilogy.

 

And for ME2, it blurred the lines a bit but the Reapers were still "your salvation through destruction" 

[Obadiah]

It was one conversation with one Reaper in ME1, in which the Reaper threw out a bunch of intimidating verbiage about being overwhelming and infinite. The Reapers were obviously going to be taken down a notch from that in the subsequent story.