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Bioware, for your next RPG

Débuté par Lotion Soronarr , janv. 18 2015 02:52

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116 réponses à ce sujet

#51
slimgrin
Posté 23 janvier 2015 - 03:17

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You're making an assumption that real swordplay is boring or unattractive..

 

Real fencing is so fast it's hard to appreciate. Even boxing and MMA seem slow by comparison. As such, animators would have to slow down certain moves and enhance others. The historical technique could remain intact though. The thing that annoys me is that devs have relied on the same animations for years - your hero swings like a drunken lumberjack every time, in wide arcs. I suspect it helps with hitbox alignment, a practical concern, but it's time they experiment more. For my money, Witcher and Dark Souls have the most satisfying melee aesthetics so far. Witcher in particular mixes in some historically accurate stances and attacks.


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#52
Lotion Soronarr
Posté 23 janvier 2015 - 12:46

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Are you saying a game where the character fights without your input?

 

Tell me, in Baldurs Gate, did you have control over your characters swings?

no.

you can use some specials/items/powers, but characters stats/skill determined swordfighting

 

Same thing here...except more variety.

Characters skill determines moves used (with some randomness)

 

that way, one could even visually see the difference between a skilled swordsman and a novice.


#53
Kaiser Arian XVII
Posté 23 janvier 2015 - 12:53

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Real fencing is so fast it's hard to appreciate.

 

I'm glad greatswords, longswords, maces, halberds etc. in games are heavy enough that using them can't be as fast as fencing.


#54
Lotion Soronarr
Posté 23 janvier 2015 - 12:58

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Swords pfft all you have to do is punch the guy 700 times in one second then watch as his head explodes.

 

For mentioning that, you are already dead

 

kenshiro-s-attack-o.gif


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#55
Lotion Soronarr
Posté 23 janvier 2015 - 01:00

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That was not an assumption, it was an observation.

It's quite simple: the market reflects society. What society wants gradually becomes what is in the market. Seagloom was pointing out, correctly, that because we see "rule of cool" around us everywhere, it's pretty obvious that that is what "most" people want.

 

The market too acts on assumptions.

 

It produces what it THINK people want. If you give people only X, they'll get used to X. If they even don't know Y, how can they even know they want it?


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#56
Fast Jimmy
Posté 23 janvier 2015 - 01:10

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Real fencing is so fast it's hard to appreciate. Even boxing and MMA seem slow by comparison. As such, animators would have to slow down certain moves and enhance others. The historical technique could remain intact though. The thing that annoys me is that devs have relied on the same animations for years - your hero swings like a drunken lumberjack every time, in wide arcs. I suspect it helps with hitbox alignment, a practical concern, but it's time they experiment more. For my money, Witcher and Dark Souls have the most satisfying melee aesthetics so far. Witcher in particular mixes in some historically accurate stances and attacks.


One word:

Glowing, light saber fencing fights to draw attention to the movements being performed


Man, I'm just not getting this word concept.

#57
Guest_E-Ro_*
Posté 23 janvier 2015 - 03:15

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Wait, we're calling Geralt's twirling like a ballerina realistic now? :P


I didn't say it was realistic. I said
 

The combat doesn't have to be super realistic, as I said, it could be witcher level, and that would be good enough.

Bolded the parts of my post you seemed to have missed. The point being that the witcher is better in this regard then many other games, but that doesnt make it perfect. 

 

 

Not to pick on you, but why would it change anything when Mount and Blade didn't?

http://forums.talewo...?topic=227176.0

It's a niche game, a niche genre. It isn't particularly popular, and CryEngine graphics won't make it so. A story might, but not the focus on realism.

This seems like a silly question. Because y'know, they are two different games? With years separating their launch? This game also has no multiplayer, which will make the realism easier to implement. 

 

I never said it definitely would change the industry, I merely expressed hope that it would. And sticking your fingers in your ears and singing "but mount and blade lalalalalalalalalalala!" Isn't an argument. 


#58
Guest_TrillClinton_*
Posté 23 janvier 2015 - 03:46

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Actually, the industry has been a bit stale at combat mechanics. The last influential combat mechanic I saw was the Arkham Asylum one( spiderman did It first I think but rocksteady improved upon it). Most of the new mechanics I have seen are just tastes of old mechanics with more attributes affecting them.

 

On that note, Turn based mechanic is robust but seriously needs some innovation. Adding more variables to it, does tend to make it deeper and at times more convoluted but if your only method of improving a combat system is throwing more variables at it, then what gives(Also do not mention Final Fantasy XIII as an example of innovation in turn based mechanics or I swear on my life I will murder you will you sleep.) I get that Turn based mechanic is supposed to emulate chess but it is starting to get stale.


#59
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Posté 23 janvier 2015 - 04:32

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Actually, the industry has been a bit stale at combat mechanics. The last influential combat mechanic I saw was the Arkham Asylum one( spiderman did It first I think but rocksteady improved upon it). Most of the new mechanics I have seen are just tastes of old mechanics with more attributes affecting them.

 

On that note, Turn based mechanic is robust but seriously needs some innovation. Adding more variables to it, does tend to make it deeper and at times more convoluted but if your only method of improving a combat system is throwing more variables at it, then what gives(Also do not mention Final Fantasy XIII as an example of innovation in turn based mechanics or I swear on my life I will murder you will you sleep.) I get that Turn based mechanic is supposed to emulate chess but it is starting to get stale.

 

I'm rather fond of Transistor's, personally.


#60
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Posté 23 janvier 2015 - 05:00

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I'm rather fond of Transistor's, personally.


Still need to play that!

#61
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Posté 23 janvier 2015 - 10:44

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I didn't say it was realistic. I said
 
Bolded the parts of my post you seemed to have missed. The point being that the witcher is better in this regard then many other games, but that doesnt make it perfect. 
 
 
This seems like a silly question. Because y'know, they are two different games? With years separating their launch? This game also has no multiplayer, which will make the realism easier to implement. 
 
I never said it definitely would change the industry, I merely expressed hope that it would. And sticking your fingers in your ears and singing "but mount and blade lalalalalalalalalalala!" Isn't an argument.

 
I would be more than happy to discuss this, but I'll be honest, I'm not really in the mood for hyperbole like "And sticking your fingers in your ears and singing "but mount and blade lalalalalalalalalalala!" Isn't an argument." So never mind.
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#62
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Posté 23 janvier 2015 - 10:50

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The market too acts on assumptions.
 
It produces what it THINK people want. If you give people only X, they'll get used to X. If they even don't know Y, how can they even know they want it?

 
I disagree that if you only give people X they can't "know" they want Y. Realism is not some ethereal thing that no one knows about. Realism is all around us, in the real world. It's something that's easy to see, and easy to understand.
 
No one thinks that Transformers is realistic. But they don't care.
 
I'll agree that the market acts on what it thinks people want. But the success of that market, and the future, is determined by what the people want.
 
People didn't want 24-hour check-ins or always online, so it went away. And yet, people DID want games blending multiplayer and single-player experiences, and it's here in a big way.

Tell me, in Baldurs Gate, did you have control over your characters swings?
no.
you can use some specials/items/powers, but characters stats/skill determined swordfighting
 
Same thing here...except more variety.
Characters skill determines moves used (with some randomness)
 
that way, one could even visually see the difference between a skilled swordsman and a novice.

 
So you mean like DA? I see no problem with that.
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#63
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Posté 23 janvier 2015 - 10:54

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I disagree that if you only give people X they can't "know" they want Y. Realism is not some ethereal thing that no one knows about. Realism is all around us, in the real world. It's something that's easy to see, and easy to understand.
 
No one thinks that Transformers is realistic. But they don't care.
 
I'll agree that the market acts on what it thinks people want. But the success of that market, and the future, is determined by what the people want.
 
People didn't want 24-hour check-ins or always online, so it went away. And yet, people DID want games blending multiplayer and single-player experiences, and it's here in a big way.

 
So you mean like DA? I see no problem with that.

 

I don't think that's very fair. I mean, sure, the concept of realism is easy to both see and understand, but is realistic combat as easy as realism as a whole? Do many people REALLY know what it's like?


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#64
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Posté 23 janvier 2015 - 11:04

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I don't think that's very fair. I mean, sure, the concept of realism is easy to both see and understand, but is realistic combat as easy as realism as a whole? Do many people REALLY know what it's like?


The question isn't whether people know what it's like, but rather whether people know what it's not.

I don't have to know just how many cars can drift at 150 mph to think Criterion Games' NFS Hot Pursuit is unrealistic. I know enough.

Similarly, I don't have to know exactly how difficult it is to wield two swords with dexterity to know that Assassin's Creed 4 is unrealistic (or DA:O). I know enough.

As I mentioned, no one thinks that Transformers is realistic (or so many superhero/comic book movies), but they don't care. And that's the real sticking point, not how much they know about real techniques.

Edit: To elaborate, one might look at the response to combat in movies, games, whatever. How many people go "I like this combat, because it's realistic," and how many people go "I like this combat, because it's bas@$$!" And you could extend it to any genre.

#65
Cyonan
Posté 23 janvier 2015 - 11:07

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To be honest I can't really see what realistic animations would add to a game for the average person who either is unaware what 100% realistic animations actually are or just don't care.

 

Sure some of them might look cool, but so do a lot of the non realistic animations.


#66
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Posté 23 janvier 2015 - 11:11

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There is also another thing, realism is very expensive. In animation they are two main methods of doing, mocap which is realistic but very expensive because of the overhead or animating the various steps that could be done. It is very difficult to capture realistic animation. The body moves in such a way that capturing it accurately would require more very carefully calculated steps.
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#67
Guest_Lathrim_*
Posté 23 janvier 2015 - 11:14

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The question isn't whether people know what it's like, but rather whether people know what it's not.

I don't have to know just how many cars can drift at 150 mph to think Criterion Games' NFS Hot Pursuit is unrealistic. I know enough.

Similarly, I don't have to know exactly how difficult it is to wield two swords with dexterity to know that Assassin's Creed 4 is unrealistic (or DA:O). I know enough.

As I mentioned, no one thinks that Transformers is realistic (or so many superhero/comic book movies), but they don't care. And that's the real sticking point, not how much they know about real techniques.

 

That doesn't necessarily mean we can't learn to appreciate realism when it's presented to us on a higher degree than before-- only that we can recognise and enjoy what isn't realistic.

 

The notion that "if you only give people X they can't "know" they want Y" is ridiculously dependant on what X and Y are, and in this particular case, I'm of the mind most people don't know enough about Y to truly know whether they'd like it or not.


#68
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Posté 23 janvier 2015 - 11:25

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That doesn't necessarily mean we can't learn to appreciate realism when it's presented to us on a higher degree than before-- only that we can recognise and enjoy what isn't realistic.
 
The notion that "if you only give people X they can't "know" they want Y" is ridiculously dependant on what X and Y are, and in this particular case, I'm of the mind most people don't know enough about Y to truly know whether they'd like it or not.


That's fair, though I can't help but disagree and point to the difference in popularity of "realistic" movies or games and others that may be unrealistic but are "cool."

#69
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Posté 23 janvier 2015 - 11:27

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That's fair, though I can't help but disagree and point to the difference in popularity of "realistic" movies or games and others that may be unrealistic but are "cool."

 

There is no denying "cool" is more popular than "realistic", I'll give you that. All I'm saying is that more people would appreciate some types of realism if they were presented to that content.


#70
Guest_TrillClinton_*
Posté 23 janvier 2015 - 11:42

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To be honest I can't really see what realistic animations would add to a game for the average person who either is unaware what 100% realistic animations actually are or just don't care.
 
Sure some of them might look cool, but so do a lot of the non realistic animations.


Animations nope, however I would go crazy for something with realistic physics

#71
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Posté 23 janvier 2015 - 11:49

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Animations nope, however I would go crazy for something with realistic physics


CPU overhead man.

#72
Lotion Soronarr
Posté 23 janvier 2015 - 11:50

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I disagree that if you only give people X they can't "know" they want Y. Realism is not some ethereal thing that no one knows about. Realism is all around us, in the real world. It's something that's easy to see, and easy to understand.
 
No one thinks that Transformers is realistic. But they don't care.

 

Really?

 

How many people have seen actual, real swordfighting?

How many people have heard how a real silencer sounds, or how a real gun behaves?

 

Without something to compare to, what you see becomes a de-facto standard.

 

It has come to the point that people start to EXPECT and really believe things to work one way, when in fact, they don't. Even people in the industry said so in multiple occasions.

 

For example, in test projections the audience woudl say that "X sounds fake" when in fact the sound was real, but they got used to the fake in other movies, etc..
 


#73
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Posté 23 janvier 2015 - 11:58

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Really?
 
How many people have seen actual, real swordfighting?
How many people have heard how a real silencer sounds, or how a real gun behaves?
 
Without something to compare to, what you see becomes a de-facto standard.
 
It has come to the point that people start to EXPECT and really believe things to work one way, when in fact, they don't. Even people in the industry said so in multiple occasions.
 
For example, in test projections the audience woudl say that "X sounds fake" when in fact the sound was real, but they got used to the fake in other movies, etc..


Realism, not realistic. Take a look at what I said to Lathrim. You don't need to know all of that stuff to know if one is fanciful and the other isn't. And how many times does the fanciful one win?
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#74
Guest_TrillClinton_*
Posté 24 janvier 2015 - 12:07

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CPU overhead man.


Limitations of a game loop. I have seen applications where they move physics rendering to another loop but even that is limited by a synchronization

#75
mousestalker
Posté 24 janvier 2015 - 01:43

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In defence of Bioware's animations, when was the last time a game showed a realistic animated hug? Not to mention a kiss? Advanced swordplay is probably just not possible at all.
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