In defence of Bioware's animations, when was the last time a game showed a realistic animated hug? Not to mention a kiss? Advanced swordplay is probably just not possible at all.
http://kotaku.com/as...-who-1657553377
Bioware, for your next RPG
Débuté par
Lotion Soronarr
, janv. 18 2015 02:52
#76
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Posté 24 janvier 2015 - 01:44
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http://kotaku.com/as...-who-1657553377
Retour en haut
#77
Posté 24 janvier 2015 - 01:48
mousestalker
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That's motion capture. I have no problem with motion capture, but that's motion capture. It isn't really practical for a game where the PC can any number of body shapes and sizes.
/nitpickery
#78
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Posté 24 janvier 2015 - 01:53
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That's motion capture. I have no problem with motion capture, but that's motion capture. It isn't really practical for a game where the PC can any number of body shapes and sizes.
/nitpickery
True enough, true enough, I wasn't paying attention. Though I disagree about mocap, I think it's possible for Bioware to figure out how to adjust the mocap to work with different shapes and sizes.
#79
Posté 24 janvier 2015 - 02:01
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#80
Posté 24 janvier 2015 - 02:07
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#81
Posté 24 janvier 2015 - 11:04
Seagloom
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BioWare once tried something akin to fight choreography in KotOR. Whenever lightsaber or vibroblade users clashed they would go into a canned looping animation that repeated infinitely until someone died or broke the loop by using a special ability or Force power.
The challenge would be making animation reactive to each blow. In KotOR, damage was at times inflicted when a character was shown actively parrying or dodging a blow. It made the visuals look disconnected from what was actually transpiring.
If they could do something similar with mocap and make animations react properly while also providing proper feedback, it might be a way to introduce more realistic swordplay. No idea how well that would work in an action RPG, though. KotOR was quasi turn based.
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#82
Posté 24 janvier 2015 - 01:17
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In re swordfights:
All of the sword tactics named are the ones actually used.
They are fencing, which was primarily a one versus one fight.
Tell me, in Baldurs Gate, did you have control over your characters swings?
no.
you can use some specials/items/powers, but characters stats/skill determined swordfighting
Same thing here...except more variety.
Characters skill determines moves used (with some randomness)
that way, one could even visually see the difference between a skilled swordsman and a novice.
Unfortunately, games like Baldur's Gate are now more of a niche genre.
This seems like a silly question. Because y'know, they are two different games? With years separating their launch? This game also has no multiplayer, which will make the realism easier to implement.
I never said it definitely would change the industry, I merely expressed hope that it would. And sticking your fingers in your ears and singing "but mount and blade lalalalalalalalalalala!" Isn't an argument.
I'm sorry, but what? You are aware that Mount&Blade originally released as a single player only game? It wasn't until Warband was announced that multiplayer was even a factor, and even then THE ANIMATIONS WERE THE SAME AS IN THE SINGLE PLAYER ORIGINAL!!!!!!!!! Hell, the animations in that game were on the same level as Morrowinds...and this is coming from someone that has sunk over 5000 hours into both M&B and Warband.
The animations weren't even realistic, they suffer from the same wide sweeping motions that are present with all games. This doesn't even touch on being able to abuse the animations because of the game system, but that's a different topic entirely.
It should also be mentioned that Taleworld is a smallish company that was backed (they separated) by Paradox Entertainment which generally publishes niche games. They don't have massive fanfare, they don't have an extensive marketing plan, they don't even have the same budget as BioWare games.
Kingdom Come may have more media coverage, but that doesn't necessarily make it on the same level as BioWare games. If I recall correctly, the combat in that game appeared to be twitch/quick time events, which really doesn't mean that it will be a "revolution" in gaming either.
#83
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Posté 24 janvier 2015 - 02:20
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BioWare once tried something akin to fight choreography in KotOR. Whenever lightsaber or vibroblade users clashed they would go into a canned looping animation that repeated infinitely until someone died or broke the loop by using a special ability or Force power.
The challenge would be making animation reactive to each blow. In KotOR, damage was at times inflicted when a character was shown actively parrying or dodging a blow. It made the visuals look disconnected from what was actually transpiring.
If they could do something similar with mocap and make animations react properly while also providing proper feedback, it might be a way to introduce more realistic swordplay. No idea how well that would work in an action RPG, though. KotOR was quasi turn based.
Then again the question is, do they have the resources to go through all of that trouble? Conceptually the scope of their games are huge
#84
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Posté 24 janvier 2015 - 02:25
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BioWare once tried something akin to fight choreography in KotOR. Whenever lightsaber or vibroblade users clashed they would go into a canned looping animation that repeated infinitely until someone died or broke the loop by using a special ability or Force power.
The challenge would be making animation reactive to each blow. In KotOR, damage was at times inflicted when a character was shown actively parrying or dodging a blow. It made the visuals look disconnected from what was actually transpiring.
If they could do something similar with mocap and make animations react properly while also providing proper feedback, it might be a way to introduce more realistic swordplay. No idea how well that would work in an action RPG, though. KotOR was quasi turn based.
My memories of KotOR are somewhat foggy, so correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure the game doesn't have an entire arsenal of varied lightsabers or vibroblades. They're ultimately all the same in size. That makes sync a non-issue, whereas BioWare's games today, while not providing as many unique-looking weapons as I'd like, have a fair share of them.
#85
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Posté 24 janvier 2015 - 02:28
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True enough, true enough, I wasn't paying attention. Though I disagree about mocap, I think it's possible for Bioware to figure out how to adjust the mocap to work with different shapes and sizes.
It is, the idea is to keep models independent from the animation. All they would have to do is capture it as a rig and adjust to a body type. They are tools for it too
#86
Posté 24 janvier 2015 - 02:33
Fast Jimmy
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To be honest I can't really see what realistic animations would add to a game for the average person who either is unaware what 100% realistic animations actually are or just don't care.
Sure some of them might look cool, but so do a lot of the non realistic animations.
If this was a zero sum equation, where realistic animations cost the same as non-realistic ones and where the player's enjoyed it just as much, I wouldn't see why developers wouldn't attempt it.
But to make realistic combat, you need to bring in melee combat experts, motion capture sessions and increased animation scripting for combat, which I think would be more expensive. And if the average Joe wouldn't enjoy it any more or any less, is that worth the extra money for a studio to invest in? I would think not, but I'm open to challenge from anyone on that.
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#87
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Posté 24 janvier 2015 - 02:40
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If this was a zero sum equation, where realistic animations cost the same as non-realistic ones and where the player's enjoyed it just as much, I wouldn't see why developers wouldn't attempt it.
But to make realistic combat, you need to bring in melee combat experts, motion capture sessions and increased animation scripting for combat, which I think would be more expensive. And if the average Joe wouldn't enjoy it any more or any less, is that worth the extra money for a studio to invest in? I would think not, but I'm open to challenge from anyone on that.
^ This.
#88
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Posté 24 janvier 2015 - 02:40
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Here is the thy, bioware want to be cinematic but don't want to improve their animals. It creates this disconnect where the performance and dialogue are good but the animations are utter ****
#89
Guest_E-Ro_*
Posté 24 janvier 2015 - 02:41
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I'm sorry, but what? You are aware that Mount&Blade originally released as a single player only game? It wasn't until Warband was announced that multiplayer was even a factor, and even then THE ANIMATIONS WERE THE SAME AS IN THE SINGLE PLAYER ORIGINAL!!!!!!!!! Hell, the animations in that game were on the same level as Morrowinds...and this is coming from someone that has sunk over 5000 hours into both M&B and Warband.
The animations weren't even realistic, they suffer from the same wide sweeping motions that are present with all games. This doesn't even touch on being able to abuse the animations because of the game system, but that's a different topic entirely.
It should also be mentioned that Taleworld is a smallish company that was backed (they separated) by Paradox Entertainment which generally publishes niche games. They don't have massive fanfare, they don't have an extensive marketing plan, they don't even have the same budget as BioWare games.
Kingdom Come may have more media coverage, but that doesn't necessarily make it on the same level as BioWare games. If I recall correctly, the combat in that game appeared to be twitch/quick time events, which really doesn't mean that it will be a "revolution" in gaming either.
I thought it always had multiplayer. Anyway, its still irrelevant. That game came out six years ago. Of course it was limited by the tech of the time.
And, anyway, this mount and blade argument is nonsense. Its a different game. Even if it is similar to Kingdom Come its success(or failure) has no bearing on the conversation at hand. Similar games have very different levels of success ALL THE TIME.
#90
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Posté 24 janvier 2015 - 02:44
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If this was a zero sum equation, where realistic animations cost the same as non-realistic ones and where the player's enjoyed it just as much, I wouldn't see why developers wouldn't attempt it.
But to make realistic combat, you need to bring in melee combat experts, motion capture sessions and increased animation scripting for combat, which I think would be more expensive. And if the average Joe wouldn't enjoy it any more or any less, is that worth the extra money for a studio to invest in? I would think not, but I'm open to challenge from anyone on that.
While I have no doubt that realistic combat would be appreciated more if we were presented to it more often (this is not an attempt to say it'd be worth the extra money spent, FYI), it would be very much niche and ultimately more about the devs going "I want my game to have this" than "this is so going to bring in extra cash".
#91
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Posté 24 janvier 2015 - 02:45
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BioWare once tried something akin to fight choreography in KotOR. Whenever lightsaber or vibroblade users clashed they would go into a canned looping animation that repeated infinitely until someone died or broke the loop by using a special ability or Force power.
The challenge would be making animation reactive to each blow. In KotOR, damage was at times inflicted when a character was shown actively parrying or dodging a blow. It made the visuals look disconnected from what was actually transpiring.
If they could do something similar with mocap and make animations react properly while also providing proper feedback, it might be a way to introduce more realistic swordplay. No idea how well that would work in an action RPG, though. KotOR was quasi turn based.
I meant to quote this in my previous post but forgot. I looooove the combat in kotor. Awesome system.
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#92
Posté 24 janvier 2015 - 03:57
Seagloom
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My memories of KotOR are somewhat foggy, so correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure the game doesn't have an entire arsenal of varied lightsabers or vibroblades. They're ultimately all the same in size. That makes sync a non-issue, whereas BioWare's games today, while not providing as many unique-looking weapons as I'd like, have a fair share of them.
Two sizes. Your standard lightsaber and a smaller lightsaber that could be wielded in the main or offhand. Saber staffs were longest, but wielded in such a way that reach was ignored during combat. As a result I will throw them under standard lightsabers and vibroblades. I think BioWare could pull it off in a slower paced RPG in the vein of DAO. The issue I see is KotOR combat animations did not always match up perfectly. Something as simple as trying to circle behind an enemy for a flanking bonus broke the flow horridly.
Marrying that style with the action RPG gameplay of BioWare games today would be tricky.
Clipping might be an issue with certain weapon designs though, yes. That alone would probably prevent them from going the KotOR route again, gameplay issues aside. Probably the same reason why all their games avoid longer hairstyles.
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#93
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Posté 24 janvier 2015 - 04:20
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It is, the idea is to keep models independent from the animation. All they would have to do is capture it as a rig and adjust to a body type. They are tools for it too
Yes, this.
#94
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Posté 24 janvier 2015 - 04:30
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If this was a zero sum equation, where realistic animations cost the same as non-realistic ones and where the player's enjoyed it just as much, I wouldn't see why developers wouldn't attempt it.
But to make realistic combat, you need to bring in melee combat experts, motion capture sessions and increased animation scripting for combat, which I think would be more expensive. And if the average Joe wouldn't enjoy it any more or any less, is that worth the extra money for a studio to invest in? I would think not, but I'm open to challenge from anyone on that.
This:
While I have no doubt that realistic combat would be appreciated more if we were presented to it more often (this is not an attempt to say it'd be worth the extra money spent, FYI), it would be very much niche and ultimately more about the devs going "I want my game to have this" than "this is so going to bring in extra cash".
This didn't save a game many disliked.
#95
Posté 25 janvier 2015 - 12:02
Dermain
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I thought it always had multiplayer. Anyway, its still irrelevant. That game came out six years ago. Of course it was limited by the tech of the time.
And, anyway, this mount and blade argument is nonsense. Its a different game. Even if it is similar to Kingdom Come its success(or failure) has no bearing on the conversation at hand. Similar games have very different levels of success ALL THE TIME.
The "tech of the time"? Uh...no...it was limited by the amount of money that Taleworlds has access to.
From the previews, Kingdom Come is similar enough to M&B, thus a comparison between the two is valid. I have a feeling that you have no actual retorts so you're just going the "It's a different game" route.
#96
Guest_E-Ro_*
Posté 25 janvier 2015 - 01:34
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The "tech of the time"? Uh...no...it was limited by the amount of money that Taleworlds has access to.
From the previews, Kingdom Come is similar enough to M&B, thus a comparison between the two is valid. I have a feeling that you have no actual retorts so you're just going the "It's a different game" route.
Lmao. So a game that came out six years ago would have the same level of visual fidelity and general amount of tech poured into it as a game released in 2015 so long as taleworlds had more money? Nonsense.
Similar sure, but the fact that its similar doesn't mean you can declare how successful it will or wont be based on mount and blade. Not sure why this is such a difficult concept for you to grasp. My retort was that similar games have different levels of success all the time, my feeling is that you have no actual retort to that because you ignored it, making yourself look like a clown in the process. You can compare the two games till your blue in the face, what you cant do is make assumptions and declare how well the game is going to do or what its affect on the industry will be. So yeah,"becuz mount and blade" is not an argument, I stand by that.
Some cursory research on Mount and blade revealed this from Wikipedia
Mount & Blade has a very minimal plot, most of which is up to the player. Although certain things are constant, such as towns and kings, the player's own story is chosen at character creation, where the player can be, for example, a child of an impoverished noble or a street urchin. This has little impact besides starting skills and dialogue (e.g. a lord may treat the player better if they are a nobleman rather than a steppe child.) Player choices also make an impact on dialogue; if the player spends time raiding caravans, a lord may treat them as criminals, as opposed to a player who spends time doing tasks for a king or trading items. There is no overarching storyline, however, so the player is left to their own devices.
That is completely the opposite of what Kingdom Come Deliverance is. KCD sets out to tell a story, a story based on real life events, set in a real world location, during a real world time period. The more I read about Mount and blade the more I realize how silly this argument is. The only thing the two games have in common is the lack of fantasy elements. In which case, why didn't Mount and blade sell as well as grand theft auto or the Sims? I mean it just doesn't add up if we are using the nonsensical equation of "similar games= similar sales."
#97
Posté 25 janvier 2015 - 04:47
Kaiser Arian XVII
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Lmao. So a game that came out six years ago would have the same level of visual fidelity and general amount of tech poured into it as a game released in 2015 so long as taleworlds had more money? Nonsense.
This game was super awesome despite its graphics was years behind:
#98
Posté 26 janvier 2015 - 09:20
Lotion Soronarr
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If this was a zero sum equation, where realistic animations cost the same as non-realistic ones and where the player's enjoyed it just as much, I wouldn't see why developers wouldn't attempt it.
But to make realistic combat, you need to bring in melee combat experts, motion capture sessions and increased animation scripting for combat, which I think would be more expensive. And if the average Joe wouldn't enjoy it any more or any less, is that worth the extra money for a studio to invest in? I would think not, but I'm open to challenge from anyone on that.
Just FYI, many of those melee combat experts wants to spread awareness. Many would do it for free, if not for pocket change.
#99
Posté 26 janvier 2015 - 10:14
Dermain
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Just FYI, many of those melee combat experts wants to spread awareness. Many would do it for free, if not for pocket change.
I think you misunderstand capitalism.
#100
Posté 26 janvier 2015 - 10:25
Decepticon Leader Sully
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